onebinky

iTrader: (1)

Well, I got my t-5 bellhousing to go over the automatic starter snout easily enough, but after I removed the starter from the engine block I couldn't get it to go back in the bellhousing far enough to get the bolts in. In fact, it was holding me out by a good 3/4".

I went up to the parts store to get a manual starter, and it's a pretty big difference between the two. Not just the snout like I originally thought.

The new one looks to be about 1/3 smaller, lighter, and has a smaller and more rounded snout.

Here's the pics:

onebinky

iTrader: (1)

two

onebinky

iTrader: (1)

three

onebinky

iTrader: (1)

Here's the second pic. It wouldn't let me edit the second post to add the pic in.

RB83L69

That's not auto/manual; that's 14"/12.8", or 168 tooth/153 tooth, or T-10/T-5, or 350/700, or whatever you want to call it.

onebinky

iTrader: (1)

So it's just a different tooth count between the flywheel and flexplate? I laid em next to each other and they looked the same OD, although I admit I didn't count the teeth. The big starter was original to my 87 IROC, the smaller one is the manual version for the 87. It was the original flexplate too, we have two others in addition to the one I took off my car from thirdgens we've parted out that are the same.

In any case, I'm happy because I get to use a smaller, lighter starter that works with my setup

Thanks for the input RB

acescarrsRS

I don't know if this applies to Chevy, but the differences between an auto & manual starter on a ,excuse my language , Ford, is on the gear that engages with the flexplate or flywheel. One gear is smaller than the other.

John Millican

iTrader: (1)

The only way those pictures are "photo proof" is if they are both genuine GM starters. You have to compare apples to apples. If one is GM and the other a parts store starter then there isn't any "photo proof". Different rebuilders and manufacturers vary in size slightly, some more then others.

ljnowell

Exactly. If you went to three different parts stores and bought a starter from the same car, it wouldnt be surprising for them to be three different physical sizes.

RB83L69

They're both GM starters. The larger one is the 3510-S for older 350/400/4-speed cars and some 700 cars, and the smaller one is the one that most of these cars use.

Some application examples: The small one is on my 78 El Camino, and was on my wife's 84 Caprice that she used to have (the Elky has a 350 and the Caprice a 700), and is the stock one for my T-5 car as well. The large one is the one for my 74 Caprice 454.

RB83L69

Incidentally, they DO NOT interchange.... you use the one with a 14" flywheel or flex plate (with 168 teeth), and the other with a 12.8" flywheel or flex plate (153 teeth). Makes no difference whether it's auto or manual; the starter goes with the flywheel diameter.

Dyno Don

iTrader: (7)

You are dead wrong on this one.
What he says is correct.
Those two starters do show the difference between the auto and the manual starters, it has nothing to do with the flywheel tooth count.
Notice the bolt pattern, they are both for the 153 tooth flywheel.
the 168 tooth flywheel starter has an offset bolt pattern.

No flame intended , just setting the record straight.

onebinky

iTrader: (1)

Well, I respect both of your guy's opinions, so I'm staying out of this one for now

I wasn't trying to start anything, my intention was to offer up some photos for the guys doing the auto-t5 swap. I had seen some confusion as far as the starter situation goes, and thoughtt this might help clarify things.

Both of the flywheels are the same OD though, I set the flexplate on top of the flywheel when I had them out of the car to comnpare them. Not sure if it makes a difference, but I also counted the teeth on the pinions today before I put the new starter in. It's the same count on both of them.

onebinky

iTrader: (1)

The only ones that would be different in size are the aftermarket ones. Remans and rebuilds are the stock casing with new internals, it wouldn't be cost effective for them to manufacturer a completely new case. Heck, all of them I've ever sold or bought still have the delco P/N's stamped in the side of the casings. The only way you would get a different size one is if they packaged them wrong.

So they are both genuine GM starters, they just have new internals.

onebinky

iTrader: (1)

This one is a BBB rebuild that I bought 2 years ago for my girlfriends 85 Z28.

onebinky

iTrader: (1)

here's the reman I bought for my 87 last fall, this is the one I just removed. It's whatever brand pepboys carries with the lifetime warranty.

The first one there I got at trakauto when they were still in the area. I worked there for 2 years, and every single one we carried had the OE stamps on it. We carried mostly BBB, had some delco remans, and an off brand. Can't recall the name of it, it's going back about 5 years now

John Millican

iTrader: (1)

Interesting.....

gmgod

So you do have to use a manual specific starter for the t-5 swap? I'm doing one and just bought a delco reman for an auto about a year ago

2.73's Suck

I just used a BFH to get the auto one into the manual housing when I did the swap. Still works to this day.

transambill

iTrader: (1)

From my experience the gear on the starter doesn't have a diff. teeth count. The nose cone on the starter will have either a strait across bolt pattern or a diagnal bolt pattern. This is what determins how close to the flexplate the starter gear is once the starter is installed.The side by side pic looks like a factory V8 starter and the new one actually looks like a 4.3 V6 starter. They will both work with a 8cyl. Actually where heat soak or header clearence is a consern I've used the smaller starter and have never had any problems. I just wouldn't expect it to live very long trying to start some high compression 14 to 1 motor.

jwscab

there are in fact many variations from GM on these starters, for sure. Some later model starters do have a smaller casting in the snout area, since I had the exact same problem switching from a TH350 to a T5, and i had to grind down the housing a bit to get it to clear. I doubt the factory did what I did, so they have different versions. This was in a late 70's early 80's g body.

both starters in the picture have the same bolt pattern. same flywheel. they also had different body sizes for the starter motor, most of the larger style are classifed as 'heavy duty'

to further clarify, there are two flywheel sizes. 153 tooth and 168 tooth. 153 tooth is typically a straight mounting pattern. 168 tooth can have a staggered mouting pattern or a straight mounting pattern.

so its not really a auto vs manual, as much as which starter you have from the factory(or on the car now). Good point to bring up though, since you can get burned with the starter if you have the 'heavy duty' one.

Zepher

iTrader: (1)

No, you don't have to swap starters.
In fact, when we did the T5 to Auto (and vice versa on my friends car) we left the starters installed.

You may have an issue putting it back in if you take it out like onebinky did. I haven't taken mine out yet so I do not know if I'll have problems putting it back in.

Oh, the cars were my 88 Formula 305TPI Auto and my friends 88 GTA 305TPI 5 Speed. I've got the T5 now and he has the Auto.

Dyno Don

iTrader: (7)

No, you don't have to swap starters.

You shouldn't make broad statements like that when there is confusion. For a fact, if you have a T-5 starter it will fit an auto or manual but not otherwise. It would not be uncommon to find a replacement starter of the wrong kind, that works.

onebinky

iTrader: (1)

Shoulda specified that this was proof for the thirdgens only I'm sure they have a billion variations to the SBC starter, and then a billion more improvements and changes to the different starters

As far as I can tell, only three variations were used on the thirdgens. The big pre 88 or so that I posted, the small pre 88 or so I posted, and then from the catalogs I was looking at it looks like in 89 or 90 GM switched to a starter that is common between the autos and manuals. I have yet to verify that one with my own eyes though, and don't remember from when I still had my 92. If my brother has his up this weekend I'll take a look underneith it.


Hmm, now that I think about it, I think the weight of the trans flexes the bellhousing just enough to not allow the snout to clear. The first time I pulled the starter I only had the bellhousing on. That time it was to install the flywheel cover between the starter and bellhousing. It reinstalled perfectly. The second time was to change the oilpan gasket. This time I had the trans bolted up to the bellhousing already, and it wouldn't let me back in with the starter. I wish I would have realized that last weekend, coulda saved $60...

Maybe a jack under the tailshaft would have been all it took to get it back in there?

I guess that's what I get for only working on it a few hours at a time on weekends. Makes it harder to remember the details

EDIT: I still have the old one in my garage, maybe I'll give it a try this upcoming weekend if I have time. I'll post up the results if they're helpful.

Zepher

iTrader: (1)

So, are you saying that my Auto Starter won't work with my T5, or are you saying that I may have a replacemtent starter that may be a 5 speed unit?

Fei

I was under the impression that there were 4 different starters for our cars. 2 for the 12" wheel one with a small diamater motor for the manual and a larger diamater motor for the auto. And the same for the 14" wheel.

I could be completely wrong on this but when I tore the starter out of my 84 with the 12" and a 5-speed it was very small and then when I took the starter out of my 86 with the 12" and a auto it was bigger (had to drop exhaust to get it out) I did and t-5 swap on that car and used the same starter so I know there are 2 different sized (VERY different sized) starters for the 12" wheel.

jmd

iTrader: (4)

stock 168 tooth flywheel starters use staggered bolt pattern and equal length bolts.

stock 153 tooth flywheel starters use parallel bolt pattern and unequal length bolts.

Here a couple post I've posted regarding the "2 different starters / T56 starters" topics:

starter post 1

starter post 2


You're trying to play a 33&1/3 on the 45 or 78rpm settings.

Just becuase something is an automatic doesn't mean it got a 168 flywheel. You're so off base, the guy playing left field could tag you out at first.



Yes. The L98/A4 cars got a larger nosecone on their starter than the 305/M5 cars. Not sure on the 305/A4 ones.

onebinky

iTrader: (1)

Both were this style, good info

My car was a 305/700r4, so they are larger as well.

jmd

iTrader: (4)

Large nose starter

Small nose starter

Note: the small nose works in a T56 bellhousing. The large nose does not.

novass

iTrader: (1)

I had the factory starter in my formula when I swapped from an auto to a manual. The starters nose would not fit in the bellhousing "bump" for the t5.

What I did instead of purchasing another, I took my die grinder to the nose of the auto starter and reduced its size so that It would fit. I figured if it didn't work, oh well, I would need to get another starter any way.

It has worked fine all season long.