WS6Formula350

Do you guys like the air foils that bolt to the tb or the ones held in place by the tb boot better?? Is anyone better then the other? I know some people are gonna say they don't work at all but whatever,...

rhuarc30

Get the ones that bolt to the TB. Matter of fact here is one area where I've found that TpiS has a decent price for a good product. I've found that they do help a bit. especially if you're gonna do a few other mods.
John

WS6Formula350

I found a used one that is held in by the boot and i wanted o know opinions.....thnaks for your's

SMURFN' Z28

iTrader: (2)

get a bolt in.... SLP makes the cheapest one around... TPIS is insanely priced for everything. You can never go wrong w/ SLP IMO.

Ed Maher

There's a reason why most folks will tell you it doesn't matter much, but whatever, it's your money. Just keep in mind all the money you blow on stuff that didn't add squat when you're wishing you had the money for real go fast parts.

iroc_cragg

Hey

I have a 1985 IROC Z and I am going to be getting an AIRFOIL. I am wondering if u can use both. The one for the throttle body and the one near the bottom of the air induction. Would both be better then one. Would I feel more of a HP gain with the both of them.

http://camaroz28.cardomain.com/id/56424

Drew

iTrader: (58)

I got more of a noticable improvement from the SLP airfoil then I did from porting my plenum and runners. The combination of both items made the effect worthwhile. If you're paying more than $50 its not worth it. SLP's works out to about $40 after shipping and taxes. Funny thing is they put a piece that fits in the palm of your hand in a box that could hold about 30-50 airfoils.

iroc_cragg

So if u get both the airfoils it is worth while....Who here has both airfoils. Because I was just gonna get the throttle body airfoil, but if buying both of them is better then ill get both....IS IT BETTER

Jza

I think Drew meant both the porting and the airfoil, not both types of airfoils.

Like Ed said though, it's your money.

WS6Formula350

Just keep in mind all the money you blow on stuff that didn't add squat when you're wishing you had the money for real go fast parts.

I think ED said it the best......

Drew

iTrader: (58)

Is $40 going to buy you a cam? what about heads? How about a torque converter? hmm... a good set of sticky tires? uh... Sure seems like that $40 I spent on an airfoil was well spent. It might have bought a new coil, or maybe plug wires, but then again I've already replaced all that stuff. You do what you can afford to do, when you can afford to do it.

My basic take on thirdgens is that most any mod you can do for free, or next to free is going to do nothing for improving the cars total performance. Most of the free mods take away the cars reliability, and dont' offer much improvement. I don't really consider that free. Thats like shooting myself in the foot just so I can enjoy firing the gun.

Look around and see what mods really make a difference, then look at what mods can't hurt anything? An airfoil is cheap, extremely easy to install (if you don't drop the allen key thru one of the small holes in the hood latch area, and into the nose cone) and doesn't hurt anything. So why not do it?

BTW I was referring to the airfoil combined with porting. How effective was my porting if I had turbulence at the throttle body? Honestly I didn't feel anything from my porting, but I did from the airfoil. Throttle response went from great to rediculous, its a noticable change. Will it warrant anything on the dragstrip? Probably not, but since I don't have a helmet and cant afford one, why should I care?

Ed Maher

Well, you're right drew, 40 isn't going to buy a cam, or heads, or tires. It will buy a dremel to port the plenum though. Or be a decent portion of the money you need to get into PROM burning. Or buy some nice valvesprings to go with the cam swap. Or a couple gasket sets. Etc.
Some people have noticed the theme i'm on lately. Mod wisely. By the time a newbie buys an airfoil, pullies, an off the shelf chip, ignition boxes, etc he will have spent more than enough money to be running 13s at a good track. Instead, he'll have a car that runs neck and neck with a stock car and he'll be bummed out. He'll still want to go fast, but he will have spent most of his spare coin on junk.
With the state of these cars and what we know today, there is no excuse for that. It's SOOOOO easy to make a thirdgen fly compared to just 3 years ago. All the dumb basic mods have been tried over and over again and have proven that they are not worth it in the gain/$$$ measurement. Sure they might do a little, and make nice additions to a combo once you have your main go fast goodies figured out. But to spend all of your initial money on this stuff is a waste. And i'm not just talking smack here, i'm doing it. My car is still basically stock and i'm already running faster than 8 out of 10 of the non-veterans L98s here. It's not that i haven't had the oppurtunity to blow money on junk, i simply resist the urge to do the easiet thing and instead do the smart thing. I keep my car running in tip top shape, and when i'm at the track instead of wishing my car ran better (and posting vague questions here like why does my car only run X), i'm there tweaking it after every run and taking notes to see what it responds to.
I want to see more people take the same initiative. Skip the easy junk and spend wisely. You'll get MUCH more for your $$$ and a lot more satisfaction by running fast w/ less.

Take for example my airfoil. I made one out of epoxy putty. It's obviously inferior judging by my cars performance. Imagine what it'd run w/ one of those big fancy Jet pieces

WS6Formula350

My whole deal w/asking about the air foil was b/c in a few months I will be pulling my motor and building a mini-ramed 355. I saw air foil used and figured why not it's $30. I don't respond to posts really at all just ask questions . I have been reading just about every post in TPI and some General Tech for about a year so I kinda know what works and what doesn't as far as what other people say. As for myself I will find out in a few months. Like i said b4, it was there so I figured what's $30 but then again Ed got me thinking, why spend the money on something that doesn't work??? I guess I gotta find out for myself...Good ol' trial and error

Drew

iTrader: (58)

But Ed, we're not talking about underdrive pulleys, ignition boxes, and Hypertech chips, we're talking about an airfoil. I agree that the rest of that stuff is useless junk. The airfoil serves a purpose, but if anyone expects any real noticable gain from it then their money would be better spent elsewhere. For the $40 spent, the airfoil gives $40 worth of improvement. It makes the most of the stock TB.

Free mods and most of the mickey mouse crap that people here do to there cars, is completely pointless. The airfoil however does make an improvement and it doesn't cost anything in the long run. File it with the K&N filter, it has benefits but nothing really measurable on a dyno or on the dragstrip.

BTW I already had a dremel, don't need valve springs if I can't afford the cam, and don't need gaskets since I don't see a point in replacing gaskets that seal just fine. That and it was a Xmas present.

Ed Maher

define "does make an improvement "

to me, something that adds at best 5hp on a 300 hp engine isn't much improvement. It's not even in the same category as KNs. There benfit is that you can clean them often so you know it isn't a restriction. Just like regularly changing your other filters and wearables is.
True, with it's low cost the SLP airfoil isn't the worst thing going. I will give you that it has more value than some junk like ignition boxes, 8,8 wires, etc.
Still, i see no fault in reminding folks to think of the big picture and not get caught up on little stuff. It is coming on spring now, it's that time of year.

Grumpy

If you sit down and really look at it and try a few experiments you'll see where it costs you HP. Not many, but a few.

Try burning a chips and limit the throttle following function of the IAC, so that it doesn't open as far at WOT, and then see what your top end is, and then another chip opening it as much as possible.

The further opened the IAC the better the TB will flow.

Now look at how the foil covers up the IAC bypass hole.

Tadaaaa, you've now saved $30.

Of course top end charges need to be done in a controlled setting for valid results.
BTDT

Synapsis

You've got to admit that 5 hp gain from 5 minutes of work and only 30$ is a pretty good deal. Sure on a 300 horsepower engine, a 5 horsepower gain is miniscule. But with small mods the horsepower will add up to something noticeable. Although it may not be as noticeable as a cam swap or a port/siamese job, but a 5 minute job I can do before dinner will please me until I have time for the heavier mods.

I come from the backround of tiny engines where removing a venturi will add 2 horsepower on a 45 horsepower engine. Hell, I did the TB coolant bypass mod, I cherish each sliver of horsepower I get.

whiteroc

Would you please explain this a little further please?

Are you saying the IAC has an effect on part throttle and
WOT opperation?

"The further opened the IAC the better the TB will flow."

Where did you get this info from?

I thought the IAC had no effect on anything but IDLE.

Ed Maher

If you're planning on building a minirammed 355, or any hot engine for that matter, you're probably going to run a 52mm+ TB right? You are aware that ALL the aftermarket TBs have a cast in airfoil in them right? Further, the cast in airfoil in TBs designed for high output engine are none other than a very simple, flat design to stop the cavity from creating turbulence.

i.e. if you're planning a hot engine, an airfoil will probably just be one more part you have to sell or trash.

And even if you're not planning on too much of a combo and will be sticking with the stock TB, it's STILL not a worthwhile topic to actually discuss. The SLP airfoil is the cheapest therefore if you're set on one, get that one. If you really would like to discuss the merits of TB design in a public forum, you better have real results on the difference between them. Or you could just take the word of people who've been reading this junk long enough to know that it just doesn't matter.

Seriously, if a big fancy jet looking protrusion made a difference vs.a low profile cover on the gap don't you think at least one of the aftermarket companies would be using it in their TB? Sure they would, it'd represent a negligible increase in cost per unit in excahge for a great marketing gimmick and performance.

WS6Formula350

I didn't know that about the bigger TB. I haven't really looked into them yet. As long as we're on TB would a 58 TB be to big for this combo, (this all in my head right now)
355 forged internals
23* TFS (price is an issue)
Miniram
52 or 58 TB
Cam dunno (suggestions???)

I'm sure I have fallen into your catagory of....let's through some parts together and hope i go fast.

Ed Maher

I'm not a big believe in the too much TB theory. The few cases i've heard of where a car supposedly slowed down w/ a bigger TB were never from someone who could be trusted to have 'scientifically' tested it (i.e. same weather, etc)

Basically i don't buy it cuz the notion of 'velocity' isn't very relevant IMO when dealing w/ a dry flow TB. Think about it. The diamter of the intake tube before the TB is bigger than the TB bores. The plenum after the TB is also bigger than the TB bores. How could imposing a smaller set of bores create more power just b/c velocity is higher in that ONE spot. As a matter of fact, i'd venture that physics would dictate that the acceleration and deceleration of the air before/aft of the TB would cost energy (no such thing as a free lunch)

Regardless, that combo should run pretty strong assuming it's put together right. I think the 58 would definitely be worthwhile for it, regardless of which side of the velocity notion you're on.

Anyhow, i'm glad i thought to mention that aftermarket TBs have the cast in airfoil. It is an important part of my POV on this topic, i sometimes take for granted all the tid bits i've learned over the years and assume my audence knows the bits to fill in the details. Obviously not always true.

WS6Formula350

Please share all your little tid bits of info. I wanna learn as much as I can and do this right the first time (doubt it's possible). I think I read more here then i do for school....hahaha
Wouldn't the theory of having too big of a TB, be the same principal of putting on too big of a carb?? It just boggs the motor down.

Ed Maher

No see, thats just it. There is no analogy to be made between a carb and a dry flow TB.

An over carbed car has problems b/c the larger area of the venturi kind of 'weakens' the vacuum signal that it sees. With a weak vacuum signal (velocity through bore = pressure differential = vacuum) the venturis don't work as effectively at mixing and metering the fuel.

A big TB does not suffer from the same stigma. There is no fuel/air metering or mixing going on. Air simply passes through it. Whether that air is moving fast or slow does not matter, but keep in mind that the faster the air has to go, the more energy your engine had to waste to make it go that fast. If the TB is too big, the engine will still only take in as much air as it can. If the TB is too small it will cost power. Like i said above, both sides of the TB are larger in cross section area than the TB. Why make a venturi out of something that ideally would be wide open

Synapsis

Ok, keep in mind I'm trying to learn here, I'm not trying to be critical.

A throttle body has blades... so wouldn't a larger bore throttle body flow more air for the same throttle position than a small throttle body, therefore having some kind of change on engine power? (I.e., throttle response)

Ed Maher

Yes, if a TB is on the 'big' side, then yes, you could be flowing as much air as the engine needs at say 80% throttle opening. This just makes it feel faster because in essence it is a faster transition.

DSaylor

Which leads to something I've been wondering.

I'm getting ready to buy a 52mm throttle body, I need it now. Within the next year I'll probably go with a 58mm.

Will it hurt my performance at all if I buy the 58mm now, even though its bigger than what my engine needs.

scribbles

From what I have read the only disadvantage of to big of a throttle body is that it will be harder to control off idle power. Car will be Jumpier, I have several friends that have 5.0 mus*angs and have redicusley large throttle bodies 70mm or something, tap the gas and it feels like you went WOT. But they are still faster than a stock TB.

Synapsis

jamon8

iTrader: (3)

Thats like shooting myself in the foot just so I can enjoy firing the gun.

thats some goooood shizzel there

air foil with stock motor=waste of money

bottom line

scribbles

Hey wife watches two soaps a day, searching post, didn't notice the date

IrocZed

i am contemplating getting the airfoil as well.
i think this will make a difference from waste perspective. Let's say at part throttle your MAF is registering 50 gms/sec . Well that's 50 gms of air within the maf tube that's supposedly flowing through your TB. The ECM is going to deliver fuel worth 50 gms of air and then adjust it depending upon the o2 input, TPS, PE mode etc. but the base factor is the MAF input.

After the registered air exits the maf tube it encounters restriction like the bellows and the TB dead spots [ which the airfoil gets rid of ].

The bellow restriction and the TB dead spots not only increase turbulence but also reduce air velocity. So at time T1 when the MAF registered 50 gms of air , only 45 - 40 gms or less may be getting into the plenum. This would result in a rich condition and the ECM would trim fuel based on your O2 readings but power is lost.


I think the airfoil is a aero device cleverly engineered to redirect the airflow with increased velocity exactly at the openings of the throttle blades.
Notice the linear humps which are designed in the airfoil to redirect air from the throttle pivot points [ another dead spot ] towards the throttle blade openings.

for maximum efficiency if the MAF is registering x gms of air, the TB should get very close to that x amount with the least possible time delay.

Smoothing the bellows would also show a noticeable improvement.

That's why some of the users are giving a postive feedback. Your overall power will remain the same or could go up [ depending upon how the factory rated it ] but a quicker throttle response or quicker torque delivery makes sense because the engine is getting very close to the registered air in a shorter period of time.

83 Crossfire TA

iTrader: (2)

That doesn't make any sense. Air can't just disappear if it's flowing through the maf it has to go somewhere, it's not like it can just get stuck someplace and sit there, there was air there to start with, so something has to flow into the engine. Bellows and "dead spots" can slow down flow preventing as great an amount of air flowing into the engine in the same time period, but that will lower the airflow through the maf.

IrocZed

yes the total amount of metered air is there..but to make it work it has to pass through the TB at that instant or with minimum delay.

The bellows and the TB dead spots increase turbulence which slows the air. The TB dead spots would also trap x amount of air at time T1 when MAF metered y amt of air.. The x amount of air has to make past the TB at the time T1 when it was registered by the MAf otherwise it's no good.

So let's say my throttle opening as registered by the TPS is 1.00 and the MAF registered 50 gms of air at time T1.
At time T1 the ECM recieves this signal and commands a pulse width proportional to the registered air. But due to turbulence and dead spots , the reduced air velocity only flows 40 gms.

The balance 10 gms is trapped within the bellows and dead spots but it needs to pass through the TB at the time the MAF registered the air. That's why turbulence is there; it's a result of air not moving in the intended direction [ towards the TB openings ] at the same time.

I think the bellows were designed for shock absorption; the dead spots i have no idea . But if you look closely at the IAC opening they do have a aero notch to hasten or guide the air through the IAC opening.

it's like if you throw a gallon of water down the bath tub with smooth sides and base it will reach the other end pretty quickly with approximately the same amt say within 5 secs.

If the sides & base are rippled perpendicular to the flow then you get less amount at the other end and eventually you will have water trapped within them. Add in dead spots and the turbulence increases and you will get less amt within the specified time frame.

83 Crossfire TA

iTrader: (2)

you're wrong, none of that matters, that mass flow is going to be the same irrespective of velocity.

IrocZed

No i'm right. You think otherwise; rationalise it.

Krik

iTrader: (4)

dead thread revived twice over

May the 4th be with you

83 Crossfire TA

iTrader: (2)

Where does the air that goes through the maf go? I don't care if you put the maf before the whole thing, after it or in the middle, what it measures is what it measures. Unless you have a hole in the ducting that is the total mass flow through the whole thing (well, as near as you'll get to the accuracy of the thing, there will be a slight variance with changes in pressure from ram effects, but nothing significant unless you made the ducting many times longer than it typically is, then there would be some capacitance in the system).

I don't believe I'm wasting my time on this.

85Z28NOS

iTrader: (2)

so you are saying its a timing thing? If this was true then the camaros would have a different tune than a trans am due to the maf location. The camaro is right in front of the tb and the ta has it after a 90 deg turn. I dont believe that is the case, I think there intent is to smooth the incoming to the manifold ( nevermind the big egr hump that directly proceeds the tb). This is one of those items that doesnt do alot without alot of other mods with it but at the same time doesnt hurt it either.

83 Crossfire TA

iTrader: (2)

Me? No, there isn't enough ducting there to make any difference, and for that matter, it doesn't matter, like I said, what the MAF measures is what is flowing into the engine, it doesn't matter if you have restrictive filter and a bunch of bends in it, or if you have just a straight duct and the maf (or something in between, like the typical cold air). Sure, one will flow differently then the other, but the maf will see that different flow and measure it accurately (or reasonably accurately, mustangs have a problem with a different maf design that may get different readings if you change it's orientation in the airstream).

ASE doc

Wow IrocZed! I think maybe you have too much time on your hands bro. Where the airfoil helps is at maximum airflow, when the engine is demanding all the air it can get. At this point, deficiencies in the design of the stock TB create turbulence that slightly restricts airflow. TPIS found through their testing that the airfoil, by solving the turbulence, slighly improved maximum airflow through the TB. Whatever air goes through the TB, excluding unmetered air, is the same airflow the MAF sees, period.

Guest

I got my airfoil from corvette king on ebay for $15 he sells a ton of them...

Guest

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/Air-F...item415669ccb7

85KSz28

That's where I got mine. For less than $20 it's not worth putting too much thought into it. It's a nice looking piece too.