palerider

I have a 1989 305 TPI. I have replaced or checked about all the components I know of and checked timing, spark, fuel pressure,-you name it. The vehicle had set for a month (gas treated). Ran fine when shut down last. Upon starting it last week holy cow. It was running bad. So I took it out for a run on the highway and things only got worst. Running erratic and bellowing black smoke, indicating to me it was running rich. I barely made it home. It has never run since. I humbly ask for anyones advice as I evidently do not have the touch. Thank you in advance. I did do a noid test and not a single injector lit up the test light. I redid a engine on fuel pressure test and had good 48 PSI +/-. Replaced the O2 sensor because it was so fouled up as well as the anti knock sensor. Even tried a couple shots of either = nothing. Replaced the entire distributor and properly set timing using the ESC wire. I just don't know at this point.

utilityguy2

iTrader: (1)

May be running in limp home mode.

palerider

Thank you utilityguy2. I figured just as you did ,that is how I made it home. But now Not even a whimper of ignition. Spark at the coil, distributor, and plugs. Power to the fuel pump and relay till it reaches the 2 second cutoff. But strangely I have no power to the injectors according to my noid light test. So something is giving me a no go. Put in a new ECM, Distributor other wise I would think the distributor ignition module was bad. new TPS set @ 4.6 VDC, . Even though I have gas and spark when I give it a shot od ether=nothing. As I said before it pumps up to 46 PSI+/- couple so gas is waiting for the go signal at the rail Again thanks. I am begging for help.....

utilityguy2

iTrader: (1)

Check the Memcal in the ECM. Maybe it came partially out. You mentioned a new ECM. Is it correct one and did you put your Memcal in it?

Tuned Performance

iTrader: (92)

ignition control module is bad. if there is no signal from the icm to the ecm you will loose spark and injector pulse.check you wiring from the distributor to the ecm.

utilityguy2

iTrader: (1)

Also check that connectors to the ECM are plugged completely in. Maybe unplug and replug to make sure. If you are using an adapter for memcal, get rid of it. Check that grounds on back of head on passenger side are good. Is ESC Spark bypass plugged in?

ASE doc

Use a test light from batt+ to the white wire at the coil to check for primary ignition pulse. Since you don't have injector pulse, I'm betting you don't have PIP either. Verify 12v at the pink wire with key on and when cranking. Remove the distributor cap and see how things look under it. I'm afraid you may find rust and corrosion. Check the shaft for lateral runout(side to side movement). Check for heavy rust in the timing core and pole piece(the little gear-like parts under the rotor. No PIP when cranking is almost always caused by an issue in the distributor. My advice is start there.

utilityguy2

iTrader: (1)

I think he said he put in new Distributor but you never know.

Tuned Performance

iTrader: (92)

hopefully it wasnt one of hose junk chinese ones off ebay. I bought one of those and sent it back and ended up rebuilding a stock gm one. The icm was bad on the stupid thing.

palerider

Yes I did install a new ECM unit (I think the brand was Cardone as well from O'reilly's) and carefully removed the two screws, checked the ends of the PROM to be sure they matched up (one is white the other blue), then pressed each end into the ECM unit and replaced the cover with the 2 screws. Reattached the 2 piece wiring harness and all the side holddowns ( 4 or 6) and the front nylon guide as well, carefully guided the unit into position and secured it to the vehicle frame with the 2 screws.

palerider

It was a Cardone one . Bought from O'Reilly's and still under warranty. Model GM-04 (made in Taiwan)

palerider

Hey thanks ASE DOC. Yes I did put in a new complete disributor (Cardone) and as you guessed already, your description of the old one was right on the mark, replaced the coil and rotor as well (MDI). I will try the 2 test you described and let you know the results. I initially dismissed this issue because the distributor is new and a good one. At least it used to be . Will get back to you on those test resultss

palerider

Yes the ESC spark bypass is plugged in. I did insure all the harnesses were connected, but I will remove them an put them back in as you suggested. And the answer is no to the PROM bridge adapter. I take it by grounds you mean the ones from the engine to the frame? If it is another please let me know. Thanks utilityguy2

palerider

I will check the ignition module. As I told ASE DOC I dismissed the ignition module because it was a brand new distributor (Cardone) And that was a month ago. Appreciate the advice tunedperformanc!

rusty vango

"chineseium" strikes again!!

rusty vango

the OEM supplier for GM appears to be china!!

palerider

Rusty vango howdy, I read your comments and went out to the garage and read the following off the Label: GM 04 Made in Taiwan. Well to abide by the rules of the forum I cannot really say too much . But I will say I am surprised as they or rather Cardone used to be in ohio. But back too me Taiwan in my opinion makes a better product than Mainland China. I certainly do not mean to break any site rules with that statement. So in a way you are partially correct. Should I be concerned is my question to you?

palerider

It seems I too have been bushwacked. As rusty vango pointed out too me-- I have one that was manufactured in Taiwan. Not as bad as China in my opinion, but it will make me more cautious now in my testing. So I will be a checking that ICM carefully as tunedperformanc, and ase doc have given me some good test and pointers.

palerider

Taiwan Republic of not Mainland China. I personally believe their is a difference in their products reliability. But thanks for making me aware.

palerider

Imade a change to this original message about the ESC spark bypass.

884+3

Readjust your tps sensor. The ecm thinks you're holding the throttle open when it reads that much voltage from your tps and shuts off the injectors.The setting should be .54 volts with the throttle closed.

John 89 Formula

unplug the maf sensor, see if it starts.

palerider

Thanks 884+3. I may have misquoted that number but I will re check it. Can you do it with engine on/no start?

palerider

John 89 Formula thanks . Yes I tried it and no change. It would not start.

utilityguy2

iTrader: (1)

The 89 had VATS, you wouldn't be the first to have a ignition key problem. An armed VATS will not allow the injectors to fire.

Tuned Performance

iTrader: (92)

vats has no effect on a no spark condition

utilityguy2

iTrader: (1)

I never said it did but I quote "I did do a noid test and not a single injector lit up the test light."

John 89 Formula

I know you said the dizzy is new, but recheck the ignition module, I put a cardone dizzy in one of my 'birds, the module lasted about 2 days. Ended up swapping the module from the old dizzy back in. Some of those aftermarket modules are so bad that I used to keep a spare in the car just in case I got stranded on the road somewhere.

palerider

I have tried my other key to see if that would make a difference. And here I sit broken hearted. Would that be a good test ? Again thanks for the help utilityguy2.

Tuned Performance

iTrader: (92)

utilityguy2 there is no spark or injector pulse. if there is no signal from the icm to the ecm both you will have no injector pulse or spark.

utilityguy2

iTrader: (1)

I quote from above, " Even though I have gas and spark when I give it a shot of ether=nothing." I agree that if he actually gave it ether, it should pop, but I would think he knows how to see if there is spark as that is first thing you would check and, he drove it home, probably in limp home mode. Somehow this tread got off on a distributor tangent and now the guy has so many changes and suggestions he doesn't know what to do next. He needs to get back to basics, spark and gas!

1988PaceCar

We just went thru this same exact thing. It was that thing inside the distributor that's under the rotor that wasn't right. It was burning out the ECMs. It definately wasn't the VATS. I watch the kids change it out and then they plugged everything back in, VAROOOOOM!

palerider

That thing under the rotor (ICM) will be the first thing I test when the weather permits. Thanks 1988PaceCar.

1988PaceCar

Just so you know, the Camaro over here had intermitten starts. It would start and run, then die for no reason. You might get a good reading from it if it's not completely fried yet. Just wanted to give you our results cuz we were so frustrated!!! Haven't had ANY starting issues sincethe kids replaced that part.

palerider

I have already pulled an old one from a GM dizzy but same part # ready to go in. Thanks again for the heads up!!

Tuned Performance

iTrader: (92)

use dielectric on the bottom of the icm.

palerider

ThanKs again tunedperformanc. I beleive that is the same as silicone, I wii put a dap on the back upon installation.

IROCmenace

iTrader: (1)

VATS fires a starter relay as well; if your engine is spinning but not starting it is not VATS.
I read most of this but not all; did you check the ECM fuse next to the bat?

utilityguy2

iTrader: (1)

I'm not sure that is true, I think it will crank but not fire injectors. Anyone?
But you may be onto something with the ECM fuse but I would have thought he would have checked that first but sometimes it is the simplest thing.

vetteoz

iTrader: (13)

So long as it is silicone grease and not silicone sealer

http://www.camaroz28.com/forums/lt1-...0/#post4771150

palerider

Thanks for your input IROCmenace. I was not aware there was an ECM fuse next to the battery. Now I know of the 20Amp fuel pump fuse by the battery. There is a ECM fuse inside the vehicle in the fuse box but it is good ttoo. I will be glad to check that fuse out if you can please be a bit more specific as to its location. Again appreciate your help

palerider

It is grease for sure. Thanks for keeping me in check vetteoz.

palerider

Good article.

884+3

Yes. When you get the car running there is an article in the technical articles page that explains how to teach the ecm to control the idle speed by adjusting the tps and setting up the idle screw adjuster.

ASE doc

Sorry, I didn't catch that you had replaced the distributor. The tests are still valid to verify power to the coil. The ECM/Fuel Pump fuse next to the battery is a good call. It doesn't supply power to the coil though. The coil receives power directly from the ignition switch. Of course verify that all fuses are good in the fuse panel. No power at the coil would be a bad ignition switch or a broken fuse link.

Use your 12v test light to verify power to the injectors with key on. If you don't find power, it may be the ECM/FP fuse. The fuse is attached to the inner fender just about 6" from the battery. It's in a black plastic holder.

palerider

I will do that today. I got sidetracked by that ECM fuse by the battery. Now that I know it is the same fuse as the fuel pump fuse (20 amp) up back of the battery I am OK. It was the 1st thing I checked. we have a foot of snow on the ground but I am going to do the ICM test and TPS test at least. Thanks ASE doc!

ASE doc

Just to reiterate, and so you don't get stuck with a new part that doesn't work, if you have power at the pink wire of the coil and no pulse at the white wire when cranking, You need to focus on the distributor first. To isolate the distributor from the ECM to eliminate any possible short in the EST circuit, you can disconnect the four wire connector at the distributor and test for spark while cranking. In this state, the distributor should produce PIP and the coil should spark, though you will not have injector pulse. Check the connections to the distributor. Once you verify that the connections are good and that there is no PIP, you need to return the distributor for exchange. I have had some recent success with the new Cardone distributors, but the company has been notorious in the past for faulty parts.

IROCmenace

iTrader: (1)

Not to argue but it will not fire injectors or the starter enable relay if the resistance in the key is not decoded by the VATS module (wrong or worn key pellet, broken wires from ign cylinder to module). When you turn the key there is a signal sent to the starter enable relay and the ECM; the relay lets the starter spin and the other signal sent to the ECM fires the injectors. Trust me. I have more first hand knowledge of this than I want...

https://www.thirdgen.org/vats_passkey_system

Like I said if the starter spins your VATS, at least up to the ECM connection, is fine.

utilityguy2

iTrader: (1)

Well that was bugging me so I traced out the wiring diagram and you are exactly correct. two separate circuits one from pass key module to allow starter relay to engage and one from the ECM to allow injectors to fire. That's why mine doesn't work that way as I have no PassKey. Thanks for the info.

IROCmenace

iTrader: (1)

No problem man. That's what it is all about.