80schild

iTrader: (5)

About a week ago my car suddenly started running like crap. It runs okay when it's stone cold, but as soon as its warms up and the rpm's fall, the idle starts hunting up and down and the whole car shakes.

I have replaced the TPS and connector, ignition coil, and installed a EGR block off plate. None of this has helped.

Here's my winALDL screen...





On flag data, the "rich flag" and the "EECC slow O2" flag comes and goes.

Any ideas?

BuzzLOL

.. Looks like O2 sensor is bad, dirty, not getting hot enough, or something...

skibum2100

Your O2 values are staying low, when they should vary between 0.1V and 1.0V. I bet your car is running rich and keeping the O2 too cold to operate properly. Check to make sure your injectors aren't leaking. Check for a torn regulator diaphragm by pulling its vacuum line and smelling for gas. Upgrade to a heated O2 sensor.

Hope this helps.

80schild

iTrader: (5)

How difficult is that FPR diaphragm to replace? I'm pretty sure it's running rich, the smell will nearly make you pass out.

skibum2100

You must remove the upper plenum and probably the passenger runner (unless it has recently been apart, then just the upper plenum) to gain access. You will also need a security torx bit (T10T) to remove the FPR cover bolts.

I bet your injectors are leaking. Have you ohm checked them? Keep in mind they can still be leaking even if they ohm check out ok, ~16 ohm. All my injectors ohmed out ok, but I had 4 of 8 injectors dripping fuel into the manifold. To determine this I gently lifted the fuel rail/injectors and put paper towels under the injectors. Pressurize the fuel rail and check for leaks (wet areas under the injectors, clearly visible in paper towels).

Pull your plugs to see if they are wet / carbon choked.

Hope this helps.

GTA matt

iTrader: (1)

Am I the only one seeing that thing running dreadfully lean???? Its still in open loop, but coolant temp is 135. Its been running for a few minutes. Even if it was running terribly rich enough to not allow the o2 to heat up, the readings would be stuck in the 900 millivolt range.

Check for some vacuum leaks and then take a good look at your maf readings.

Introduce some carb cleaner, propane, etc into the intake and see if the o2 will respond to it. If not, its pretty straight forward, o2 is biased lean.

skibum2100

I thought that rich (cold) was low and lean (hot) was around 1V. In either case I am thinking its actually flooded. Running "pig" rich, so bad it burns your eyes. The ecm supplies a .451V bias to help the O2 do a better job, but his values are always low.

Maybe the CTS is bad and needs to be replaced (but the values do change).

Hope this helps.

80schild

iTrader: (5)

I checked for vacuum leaks. I even used new lines and connectors when I deleted the egr. I did find that the line to the heater diverter valve had worked itself loose ( or maybe i bumped it loose), but the idle didn't improve when I hooked it back up.

I also suspected the MAF, so I tried unplugging it, the only thing that did was trip a SES light. The O2 sensor is fairly new. It started doing this all of a sudden. I took it for a drive and it was fine, i came home for about 30 minutes then went back out and started it up, it idled so bad the lights were dimming.

The weird thing is if I unplug the TPS the idle smooths out a good bit.

skibum2100

Its running better either, because when you disconnect the sensor it runs off factory default settings, or because the TPS is bad/maladjusted. Adjust the TPS idle reading to .54V.

Upgrade to a heated 3 or 4 wire O2 sensor.

Hope this helps.

skibum2100

GTA matt, you are correct. The O2 values indicate a lean condition, but the watery eyes contradict the measurement. It is important to remember that an O2 sensor only measures the amount of oxygen relative to the atmosphere, but it is based on a bunch of assumptions. It doesn't anticipate a SUPER rich condition where there is very little available oxygen passing the sensor. So WinALDL can show a lean condition when in reality it is running very rich.

From a different post but very informative:

https://www.thirdgen.org/forums/tech...86-post18.html

"First thing to keep in mind, is that an O2 sensor is just that: an O2 sensor. It senses O2. That means, oxygen in the exhaust stream. It DOES NOT sense "mixture"; it DOES NOT sense "fuel"; it DOES NOT sense "how it runs": it senses OXYGEN. Nothing more, nothing less, nothing else. As such, its output is EASILY misinterpreted. Therefore that code doesn't mean "O2 lean", like, the ECM actually knows somehow that the mixture is lean; rather, it means that when the ECM attempts to make it rich enough that there should be oxygen in the exh stream, the sensor reports that there still is none. That is a VERY DIFFERENT thing altogether from "rich". You could get an actual "rich" condition, for example, by having your coolant temp sensor unplugged; (although that would set yet another code) the ECM would think that it's -40° outside when it's 80° or whatever, and would add fuel accordingly; the mixture would be burn-your-eyes rich, but the ECM might still well be happy with it, until the engine had run for long enough that the temp should have come up above freezing somewhere and the ECM is smart enough to know that if it has been running for 15 minutes or something and it's still at -40°, there's SOMETHING wrong."


Hope this helps.

SDTransAM

iTrader: (5)

I don't know much about your logging program. But I know if a o2 sensor fails, it could be reading lean, telling the computer to add fuel. The o2 could be so bad that it's telling the computer to add so much that it's running like crap. o2 sensors are cheap and easy to replace, even if it's not bad, it's a good idea to replace it. But that's what it sounds like to me.

skibum2100

He mentioned that the O2 sensor is "fairly new".

Your BLM values are still at 128 (factory default setting: ie. ecm not listening to the sensors yet), run the engine longer until you notice a change in the BLM. I bet it heads off to one end of the scale (108 or 156).

Hope this helps.

ninetyone

iTrader: (2)

If o2 voltage is low then the ecm will compensate by richening up the mixture. His car is probably stuck in open loop too. That would indicate a bad o2 sensor or wire.

Sounds like something other than the o2 is bad. Car shouldn't run too bad with the o2 not working. It will run like it is cold out all time with the o2 not functioning. May even run with more power.

There are only 3 things that determine closed loop operation. A timer in the ecm, o2 voltage, and CTS (a specific coolant temperature). All of these three things must be met in order to get into closed loop operation.

How do you know its lean? If its at 128, then that is running off of default values in the ecm. If it is at 128 and stuck there, then the ecm is more than likely richening things up. Did you say "running rich enough not to let the o2 heat up" What is that supposed to mean? The o2 heats up from exhaust temps. Running rich or not , the exhaust gas will heat up to a certain temp regardless of coolant temp. Coolant temp will naturally rise regardless ,the longer the car is running . If you are seeing low coolant temps and the car has been running for a while , i would look elsewhere than the o2 sensor.

Why don't you run TTS Datamaster and shows us a log?

80schild

iTrader: (5)

When I bought the car the O2 sensor had broken off and was dangling, it still ran better than it does now. As for the CTS, it's also new, as well as the MAT and pigtail.

I also installed a brand new TPS and pigtail yesterday. It's at .53v

I'll try to get the engine fully warmed up and post another graph. When I did the last one it had only been running maybe 4 or 5 minutes. If I can figure out how to post a video I'll do that too.

skibum2100

Please log some data (preferably under driving conditions), save it, and post it (as a xcel file or text file that we can convert to a xcel file).

Have you checked the fuel pressure? I'm still thinking bad injectors.

Remove the intake duct between the MAF and TB, open the TB blades, and smell for gas inside the plenum.

"running rich enough not to let the o2 heat up"__referring to a SUPER rich condition in which the exhaust gases are much cooler than a lean condition (HOT exhaust gases), and as such, will not properly heat the O2 sensor (which relies on heat from the exhaust gases to operate correctly).

Hope this helps.

GTA matt

iTrader: (1)

Because the o2 mv are in the 100's. I would honestly put money on it that when it goes into closed loop the block learn goes into the 160's and begins running like crap. If the o2 reading stays low, then the o2 is bad. Pretty simple. You don't have an exhaust leak do you?

What is the o2 reading koeo?

ninetyone

iTrader: (2)

Probably does go to 160.LOL Had it happen to me before. I had a bad o2 sensor and the thing was pegged at .450mv the whole time. BLMS were at 128 most of the time until it finally would hit closed loop for about 60 seconds and then the Lterm C count would be stuck at 160! Defiantly ran rich.

I think you should download TTS Datamaster. Watch your S-term C counts and your L-term C counts. Red (any number under 128)indicates ecm is pulling fuel(leaning it out cause mixture is too rich) and green(any number over 128) indicates ecm is adding fuel (rich)

Yet if you don't get into open loop, then more than likely one of three things is bad. o2 sensor, CTS, or ecm. Could possibly be the wire from the o2 to the ecm too. Anything is possible

That's a good question GTAMatt. He may have an exhaust leak

80schild

iTrader: (5)

I tried using WinALDL again and for some reason my SES light flashes fast when I plug the cable in, it doesn't idle up like it usually does either. I've never seen the SES light flash like that.

I was curious about vacuum leaks so I sprayed some starting fluid in various places to see if it would idle higher, but nothing. I also pulled the vacuum line from the FPR to check for gas or gas smell, but I didn't notice anything.

skibum2100

That fast flashing sounds like the indicator for closed/open loop operation while engine is running. If you jumper A & B with the engine running, the ses light will flash fast or slow depending on open or closed loop operation. I hope your cable is ok, but it sounds like something got crossed.

Remove the intake duct to the TB and open the TB blades, does the inside of the plenum smell like gas?

Good luck...

DENN_SHAH

iTrader: (1)

with BLM at 128 and Int running from 120-126, it shouldn't be that rich or lean. if it is, something is wrong. what does the fuel pressure look like?
although with Int of 120~126, the ECM is pulling a little fuel, but not enough to really cause it to surge or smell bad.
if its rich enough to stink, then goosing it should produce black smoke from the tail pipes.
lean stinks and will burn your eyes too.
even a brand new O2 sensor can be bad right out of the package.

a trick of the trade, make yourself the O2 sensor.
unplug the O2 sensor and strip the ends of some wire thats 3-4 feet long and plug 1 end of it into the harness side O2 connector and warm the motor up.
with the motor and winALDL running, position your laptop where you can easily watch it.
now grab the other end of the wire with 1 hand and touch your other hand to battery positive and watch the O2 volts. while watching the O2 voltage, now move your hand to battery negative. the O2 voltage should change.
by constantly moving your hand fairly quickly between the posts, you can leave your hand on one of the posts for say 1-2 seconds and then on the other post for just a split second.
if the motor has been running long enough, you should see the BLM and Int start moving.
depending which battery post your leaving your hand on the longest, the ECM should move the BLM and Int either lean or rich.
longer on negative, BLM and Int climb, longer on positive, BLM and Int drop.

gczj13

i am also having the same problems. i have changed out plugs, wires, o2, and maf relay. the plugs were pitch black when i pulled them out, and just like 80schild's gta it burns your eyes just being around the car when it is running. no aldl cable so i cant tell you what is going on with the ecu and readouts. at this point im pretty sure it is an issue with injectors or the frp.

80schild

iTrader: (5)

Yep, it does. I'm assuming that's bad injectors?

ninetyone

iTrader: (2)

BLM's under 128 is perfectly normal. The closer to 128 the better. If it is over 128 then the ecm is "adding fuel" (richening it up) Then the exhaust will stink. Does on mine anyway.

skibum2100

Yep, bad injectors. I highly recommend upgrading to Bosch III's. Southbay is highly recommended around here.

BLM at 128 can also means that the ecm is running off of factory preset values, instead of listening to the sensors (and running off of measurements).

Hope this helps.

ninetyone

iTrader: (2)

Did you try testing them for ohms?

I would replace your o2 sensor.

80schild

iTrader: (5)

No, but they look to be the original old Multitecs, so I think I'm going to replace them anyways.

DENN_SHAH

iTrader: (1)

when the fuel trims are under 128, the ECM is pulling fuel.
if BLM and Int are within +6 or -6 of 128, its considered normal for a number of reasons.
BLM (long term fuel trim) of 128 and Int (short term fuel trim) of 120 should not cause a surge or the exhaust to smell because very little fuel is being pulled.
too lean will cause the exhaust to stink and burn your eyes too.

also, if you have something to add within a few minutes of your last post and there hasn't been a reply to it, please just edit it instead of cluttering up the thread to artificially raise your post count.

ninetyone

iTrader: (2)

I agree. Anything in the 120's is actually great. I think he has a bad o2 sensor. Also, don't worry about what others are doing with their posts. Your comments can create bad vibes here with other viewers. That is not what this site was ever about. Nowadays, there are a lot people on here trying to moderate or worry about the way others are posting on a forum.

80schild

iTrader: (5)

Well, I got the plenum and runners removed today (that was a job), and I'm hoping my injectors arrive tomorrow. It looks like all I need to do now is to remove the screws from the fuel rail and lift it. I assume I need to release any fuel pressure first (if there is any) so it doesn't spray in my face, but I'm not sure the best way to do that.

Oh yeah, someone had put a left side lower runner gasket on the right side, which created a hole for air to get through. Their idea to fix this was to glob on some rtv. I ordered a new gasket set too.

skibum2100

Just depress the schrader valve in the pressure testing port, this will release whatever pressure is there. You will have to gently lift the fuel rail to un-seat the injector's o-rings (mine were really stuck in there). Then you have to release the injectors from the fuel rail, they will be attached to the fuel rail by a rotating clip at the top of the injector (depending on the replacements you may or maynot re-use the retaining clips). What did you get for replacements?

Good luck...

Tuned Performance

iTrader: (92)

take the hard lines off from the front of the fuel rail. There is also a 9/16 bolt holding the fuel rail hard lines to the manifold.

80schild

iTrader: (5)

I ordered the 22lb yellow ones from Southbay. It says I won't have to use the clips, and to "install them into the manifold first".

What is that sensor at the bottom of the driver side runner? I never even noticed it there before.

Tuned Performance

iTrader: (92)

that is you cold start injector 85-88 tpi 89 it was removed in memcal $6e reprograming.

ninetyone

iTrader: (2)

Press the schrader valve,but i would use a rag on top and around it too,can get messy. then disconnect your fuel lines. Use a little motor oil on the injector o-rings when installing. Don't lose the small metal locks either. It is much easier taking the whole fuel rail assembly off and installing the injectors on a table.

80schild

iTrader: (5)

I got my new injectors installed today and it seems to have fixed my problem.

I do notice a bit more ticking sound compared to before, is that common with these Ford injectors?

bgmoss

I replaced my 89 350 injectors with bosch III a few months ago and noticed the same louder ticking.
I believe it is normal. Those injectors solved a similar problem for me too!

ninetyone

iTrader: (2)

you could right about that,mine tick a little. What size Ford inj. are u using?

80schild

iTrader: (5)

Thank goodness, I thought I was getting a top end tick. LOL

ninetyone, I believe they're 22lb.

ninetyone

iTrader: (2)

IIRC, Ford injectors went 14lb (grey),19 (orange) and 24lb (blue), etc. What color are yours?

80schild

iTrader: (5)

They're yellow.

According to SouthBay's website they're the correct ones for the 350. They may be made by Bosch, but they have "Ford" written on them.

ninetyone

iTrader: (2)

huh? cool

80schild

iTrader: (5)

Another benefit of new injectors, no more exhaust popping when coasting on the highway. I was almost remove to ditch my flowmaster exhaust because I thought that was the problem, but new injectors cured it.