gmsoldier

so i put the 355 on the back burner for another build, and splurged on a 383 build. not sure what cam to go with, so lookin for advice. already considered a Lloyd Elliot or AI cam, but dont know if i want to wait 3-4 weeks to get it (even though i know i should), so considering some off the shelf grinds. had a few in mind like the 292xfi, but want to get some of your input. so heres the goods-

factory roller 4 bolt main
eagle 4340 3.75 crank
eagle forged 6" h-beams
mahle forged pistons
arp main/head studs
1.6 rr
1205 mini ram-going to match to 1206
CP 58mm throttle body
AFR 210 (part # 1054)- 65cc
spring specs-1.550" OD Roller Dual Valve Spring w/ dampener, 225 lbs on seat, .710" maximum lift
accel 30# injectors
GNX delco fuel pump
ls7 lifters
1 5/8 shorties right now, hooker 2210's in the works
off brand 2500-2800 stall converter (for now)
richmond 3.73's (not installed yet), 2.73 stock right now
built 700r4

11:1

MAF system on 165 ECM, 6E$. AEM wideband. will be tuning it myself.


def. plan on upgrading the converter, but will have to wait until car is up and running. same goes for the gears. car may see the track once or twice, but will mainly be a street car. im thinkin i would like to peak at around 6500 maybe shift closer to 7k, i think she can handle it. i remember reading somehwere that MAF system only has PE until like 6400, so im also wondering if im going to have major issues with that?


i would like to hear anything that anyone has to say about a cam, or anything else with my set up. thanks guys


PS- i know everyone says this, but there is a very strong chance that this engine will see a little nitrous in the future. 150-175 shot maybe, so keep that in mind

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

You have large 210cc heads and a miniram that will support flow to well over 7k. Definately want to cam this up to take advantage of all that. XFI292 is not a bad choice for a shelf grind if you dont want custom. I think custom would be best bang for the buck. Lloyd Elliott would know miniram motors well since he does LT1's. Same with Advanced Induction. I'd consider them as well as Bret Bauer as he used to do the LT1 cams for Lloyd, and also Mike Jones. Several guys here using Jones cams on EFI motors here, and making big numbers and they dont have the heads you do.

However, the solid roller springs in that setup wont jive well with the hydraulic lifters. I'd swap springs for the AFR 8019s or go with Morel lifters and it could work. I know guys have used well over 200lb springs on Morels with no problem but they aint cheap at ~550 a set. Cheaper to just go 8019 springs.

You have PE fuel control to 6400 rpm, as 6400 is last data entry. However that will hold fueling the same to however long you want to rev out to. So if you add enough at 6400, you will be fine to 7K. My car peaked at 6250 but held flat to 6600 or so and I shift by 6800.

Big cam setup tho will need alittle converter speed and some gear and good exhaust for sure. 2210 headers and single 3.5-4" is a good idea.

gmsoldier

so i should consider spinning her faster huh? i guess i just dont know enough about how fast i can spin it while still keeping it reliable and useable on the street. so lets say i get a cam designed around a higher stall and gears but have to run it on my current set up, is it gonna be driveable and just not at its full potential or wont even be able to cruise it until i get the converter and install the gears? i know itll want to overpower the brakes when stopped, but i figure i can just shift into neutral if its too bad. im also curious if my injectors will support the kind of power i might potentially make, i bought them for the 355 which wasnt going to be nearly as nasty as this engine.

i know its pointless to ask since i have picked a cam yet, but ill ask anyway. any idea of my power potential here? off the spray of course

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

Since I had my 383 with 195 heads and a cam that peaked in the 6250 rpm range and carried power to 6500+, I wouldnt hesitate to run 210 cc heads and a larger cam. The cam I had spec'd out for my combo when I was considering upgrading the cam was a 240/243 ~.600" and 108 lsa. A nasty cam but definately driveable. Kowboy59 on here had a 240-246 I believe and his 383 ran very hard.

Most builders will tell you 210cc heads are abit overkill for a 383 if your only looking for peak under 6500rpm. So to get the moneys worth, spin it up alittle higher. you got a decent bottom end, all forged, ARP hardware...etc. Same bottom I had except I didnt have main studs, just bolts. I spun to 6800 all the time with a few 7K runs. Also sprayed 150 shots to 7K. Ran fine. Cam wasnt huge on duration but it was designed to carry power to the rpm ranges I wanted. 230/245 .603/.613 109 lsa. It was extremely driveable even tho it had a lopey idle. I loved that motor and miss it alot.

I still had brakes. The larger cam i was going to run would need a 1000 rpm idle with alot of timing to get good vacuum but still can work with power brakes. If all else failed just run a canister for low vacuum but I think you will have plenty.

Shelf grind, I'd get that 292XFI. It will pull to 7K where you'd want to shift and will be very driveable. Some claim its abit better than the old CC306 which is similar to my old cam, except I had more lift and tighter LSA.

That combo should be well over 400whp provided the MAF/intake system doesnt hold it back, and run deep 11's with 1.5x 60's. I'd try a 3600-3800 stall for a street strip car...4000-4200 for a weekend warrior.

IT will run fine on lower stall and small headers until you swap them over. BUT will need a retune. My buddy ran the 280XFI on stock stall with a low compression 360" motor. the 292 in a 383 is comparable and i'd expect it to work if the tune was spot on.

Basically you are building the 383 I wish I would have done the first go round. If you really wanted to push things, go solid roller and spin it to peak nearer to 6800 but got to watch the fuel demand at that high rpm since PE mode only covers to 6400. May have to run it fat up til that point, and let it lean out as fuel drops out.

30 lb's may work ok. If in doubt just crank pressure up to LSx rating's, 58psi. You likely will max out the 30's on stock pressure. Most 383 LT1 guys run 36-42lb injectors with LE3/AI max effort builds. I ran 42 for room to grow but I dont think I was close to pushing those injectors

Mike Z28

I ran out of air with gutted MAF on a 400 miniram. Went with a blowerworks 3" maf, problem solved

gmsoldier

ive been considering solid roller but dont know enough about the subject yet. i dont mind adjusting valves every once in a while, i would just be worried about beating the valve train up too much on the street. i plan on driving this pretty much every day until first snow, god willing of course lol ill def mention the solid roller option to jones cams when i give them a call, and get their opinion. as far as the PE issue goes, i may end up with an EBL or sumthing similar so i dont have to worry about the MAF restriction or the rpm limitations, any thoughts on the EBL or similar systems?

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

Solid with the right lifters can live on the street but its not as durable as a hydraulic roller. You can do what you want to do with a hydraulic roller and its cheaper overall, but solid generally makes more power

gmsoldier

yeah probably makes more sense to keep it hydraulic, and just throw a little spray at it if i wanna make some more power. heads came in the mail yesterday, and i felt like a little kid on christmas when i opened them up. lol the quality is just amazing. talked to jones cams to get a price, didnt get a recomendation yet as i dont have the cash on hand but it was only like 360 bucks with a 1-2 week turnaround, so im pretty happy about that. ill probably get back with them monday and see what they recomend

gmsoldier

what rockers were you running on your 383?

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

comp pro magnums. STill running them on the turbo motor.

gmsoldier

well i finally had a chat with mike jones cams, and their recomendation doesnt seem too far off from the xfi292.

292- 242/248@.050 .584/.579 113lsa

mike jones-242/245@.050 .600/.592 110lsa-said it should peak around 6500 and keep power WELL past 7k. and at only a few bucks more than the comp cam, seems like the way to go huh?

SOOOO with the mike jones cam, im kinda curious as to what kinda power i might make. lol

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

Thats about same cam he recommended me for a 6500 rpm peak...mine was like 240/243 on a 108. I'd go with his cam and let it eat. It will be up around 550hp on motor for sure..perhaps a few more. 550 out of a 383 is doing pretty well.

gmsoldier

sounds pretty good to meordered the cam today, didnt think about it before but im hoping i dont run into any PTV clearence with that cam and the 2.08 intake valve on those heads though, pretty sure we went with zero deck. im thinking ill run the AFR 8002 springs, they are 165# on the seat i believe. what type of nitrous system did you run out of curiousity?

fireturd350

iTrader: (8)

Very interested to see how it does. I doubt you will have any issue. I had plenty of clearance on mine with a seasoned block.

gmsoldier

thanks me too. your set up looks pretty nasty too, those rwhp numbers look kind of low though, any idea why?

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

PTV may be close but it should be ok. I think my clearance on my 245 deg .613" lift exhaust lobe was still plenty of clearance and that was my tightest spot.

8002's are designed for 1.98" install height. They could work as a hydraulic roller spring if you keep it that high. On 210 heads, i'm not sure what the install height is. On 195's its closer to 1.78" and 8002 springs at 1.78" will put pressure through the roof. 8019's are the right spring for 1.78-1.80" heights, while the 8002's can work with +.100 valves for closer to 1.98" heights. Just keep an eye on that.

gmsoldier

yeah the 210's come with +.100 valves out of the box

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

Ok, then just double check the install height so you dont end up running too much pressure on the hydraulic lifters. If you want more insurance, get Morel lifters as they are stronger than all the others and can handle heavy pressures. The fastest vette in Europe runs Morel hydraulic roller lifters with 225# springs which is solid roller spec. They are expensive lifters, but worth it. I had a set but sent them back since my ls7's are still working well enough for me.

gmsoldier

i looked into morels but i def. dont have the budget for them at the moment, im gonna run the ls7 lifters and see how they work out. what kind of power was your 383 making on/off the spray?

fireturd350

iTrader: (8)

Bad carb. I tried to use a used Speed Demon 750DP off eBay. I found a throttleshaft leak and I blew an intake gasket that started suck coolant down the driverside bank on the same dyno run. I later swapped out intake gaskets, carb for a Pro Systems 950, but still haven't made it back to the wideband to have it tuned again.

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

My 383 was about 400whp on motor 380wtq. On a hot 90 deg day on 10th and final pull, welll heatsoaked and over 205 deg coolant temps, it made 392/371 so its over 400 cool. ran 11.47 at 118-119mph. More in it in cooler weather but never ran it again on motor

Nitrous is too much fun so I sprayed it all the time after that. Never got to dyno it again, cracked the flexplate so I was done for the year. ran 10.63 at 127 best time but usually trapped 126-128 depending on bottle level and pressure. I'd guess around 515whp or so. Suppose to be a 150 shot but seemed to act more like 125.

gmsoldier

damn, sounds like a pretty stout combo. think you would have picked up some power with the 210 heads like mine since the cams are pretty similar? i assume that you were close to maxing out the HSR too?

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

HSR can support a good deal of power. I ported mine out a decent amount, straightened the 4 runners that have a "curve" to them and matched all runners to the heads.

210's i'm confident would have made 10-15hp more above 6200 rpm, especially if the cam was a 240's deg cam and it would have made more power from 6200-7000 where that car ran most of the time. I dont think the heads would have given up anything down low and in the midrange. For similar cost I dont think I could go wrong with 210 heads over 195's. Not sure how much PTV you'd have with 2.08 valve vs the 2.050 but from some engine combos i've seen, 383's like that 2.08 valve if the cam is pretty aggressive. Its been said that for best power up to 6500 rpm and likely extend that to 7K, you want to see big valved heads with very fast valve motion with relatively low seat duration. My cam was just that, 230 deg on intake, but .603" lift. Fast valve motion with the right timing events can make big power, which is the recipe for EMC engine builds. Its HARD on valvesprings/pushrods/Lifters so get good parts.

The dyno numbers on my 383 arent as stout as some 383 LT1 combos but the ET's and MPH were pretty good if not better than some of the 4th gen LT1 combos i've seen...but they could be abit heavier too. Hard to say since I could have used MUCH more gear and even slightly more converter if staying all-motor. That motor ran pretty hard for what it was, and the intake lobe was pretty mild, just 230 deg....i honestly think 10-12 more deg would have made things very interesting on that setup.

It seems 195cc's can feed a 355 to 7K easily, while on a 383 they are great for 6500 rpm. I'd use 210's for up to 7K rpms with hydraulic or solid rollers. Most 406-420" motors can easily step up to "most" 220cc heads for 6500-7000 rpm peaks. Bigger cubes/bore really make torque and really do require alot of cfm so the bigger heads are necessary. 230 deg cams in a 355 can pull near 7K rpms and make power if done right, and 240 deg cams can pull to 7K in a 383 if done right, and 250 deg cams can pull to near 7K in 400-420" motors if done right.

gmsoldier

well cam is ordered, and short block is almost paid off. hoping to have the car done up and running this month. still have to get other small stuff like rockers, pushrods, gaskets, etc. i am kinda wondering if my OE replacement damper will suffice, or if i need to step it up to an SFI damper and flex plate?

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

get a good SFI one. For the rpm you will be turning, its a wise investment. You can find them for good price. I used Romac and they are often sold on ebay for good price. Work very well. I got one on my new motor too

gta324

Bad *** setup

My advice would be skip MAF and 6E and go for 8D (with super AUJP) or EBL or another MAP system.

/N.

gmsoldier

well thank you! i would LOVE to upgrade to an EBL or even just 730 system, ive been looking at ebl a lot lately though and it seems like they way to go. at this point just want to get it up and running, because ive gone through so much hardship with this car/last engine build, i really really need to see some results to keep me motivated on the project. lol im a lot more excited about this engine than the 355 because im going the route that i should have gone in the first place and there is a lot more power potential.

gta324

Have no personal exp of EBL but for what I've seen and heard it a good system. I havent had any reason to upgrade any of the cars I've tuned to EBL yet.

Last one was a 383 HSR/head/cam in the 240 range, that I put in super Aujp V4 in, 30min (+ some "offline") tuning and its running great. Have some small tuning left, mostly AE, but it runns really good.

gmsoldier

yeah im kinda excited to get into the tuning portion of the build. being that this is my first go at it though, kind of hoping i can find someone local or someone on here with a similar set up to reference off of. hopefully my wideband will make the task a little easier