dspencer24

iTrader: (3)

hmmm are those 27lb? im kinda interested to know about this as well?

irocuroc

i would like to know how those are 27lb also.. what part number is on them.

southbay08

the number is 0280155715,,, they flow 27lb at 43.5psi

irocuroc

hate to argue but there is many posts on these.. I use those injectors in the Jeep 4.0 strokers , But, the jeep uses 49psi fuel pressure so these are 27 in that engine. These at 43.5 are 24.. here is the Bosch #'s 0-280-155-715 22.45lbs, 235.9CC/MIN, 169.7GRAMS, 43.5PSI, 3BAR.. I have been running these in the jeeps for years.. After all, I build stroker engines for a local club.. If people are buying these and setting their injec constant to 27 they will be dangerously lean on the top end. Those L98 pistons hate lean.. My suggestion is to get a AFPR and run 50psi fuel pressure and it will be ok.

southbay08

We have been selling these for years at 27lb at 43.5 psi specifically for corvettes, camaros, and many other applications, I also sell them to an engine builder based out of Florida. They are a company who builds the engines for the Jeeps. When we flow them on our bench they flow 26.9 lb at 43.5psi. but i do know that people advertise them at 24lb, just don't know what pressure they are flowing them at.

irocuroc

I would still like to know why at Bosch they don't flow 27 but at your place they do.. This is important as guys are assuming these are 27. You keep avoiding this.. How are you measuring the 26.9 at static flow or something? Not to be cocky but I would think Bosch knows a lot more than south bay

southbay08

I am not avoiding anything and i am not claiming to know more than bosch. And yes, i do know the importance of offering accurate information,,, that is how we stay in business and try to offer one of the best quality products out there, and yes we do flow them on static. Now do you think that i would be selling these injectors for the past four years at an incorrect advertised flow rate?? I do not think that there would be too many happy customers if i have been selling the wrong size injectors for their applications. Everyone seems to have alot of confidence in FIC, rightfully so, they are a good company. Take a look at their add on ebay.... type in 27lb injectors and tell me what you see, as matter of fact Here is the item number:

310208235997.

InjectorsPlus

iTrader: (1)

Here's the problem Those are not 27 lb injectors. They are rated at static flow, which, is not the right way to rate an injector.

Those are 24 lb injector when dead time if factored in, as it should be rated. There is no dead time calculation figured into this rating.

So the first issue is, the method to determine the flow is fatally flawed. Those injectors flow less than the blue tops he has. Those 0280155715 injectors are out of a taurus OEM injector. These are rated at 22.45 at 39.45 lbs of pressure. At 43.5 lbs of fuel pressure, they flow 24 lbs. In the jeeps, which uses them, they are flow 27 at 49 lbs of pressure, not the 43.5 we run in these cars.

Ford blue tops, FMS injectors. Flow 28 at 49PSI which is the jeep pressure, more than the Bosch III from the Taurus, so to make that move, makes no sense at all. These are part number 0280150947. The new FMS sold today by FMS 0280155931 and they are 24 lbs.

FMS has never sold the TARUS injectors listed above. People mis-represent these Taurus injectors as FMS. The ones above should be rated at 24. NOT 27.

You risk leaning out the motor by setting your tune for 27 which can result in severe engine damage and melting pistons because these injectors aren't rated correctly. The BLM will go above 160 and not be able to control your fuel. The ECU will be unable to calcualte and it's time to look at a full rebuild. Nothin' like a fresh motor huh?

Bosch themselves does not make a 27.

If you need some real technical support give me a call. 201-258-5600.

InjectorsPlus

iTrader: (1)

No, you're wrong. Those are LS1 injectors, according to the listing, which rated at 58 lbs of pressure, that's 4 bar, those are really 24 at 43.5 That is why they are listed at 27 lbs for 97 up LS1. I don't see anywhere in this add where it says it will fit an L98 at 27lbs.

Apples/oranges.

southbay08

Injectors plus please do not start. When you get your hands on a flowbench and flow injectors yourself instead of having someone else do it for you then talk to me. I sold hundreds of these injectors rated at 27lb...NO COMPLAINTS of running lean...EVER!

InjectorsPlus

iTrader: (1)

I'm not starting anything. I just hope someone didn't blow up a motor because you're rating them wrong.

Check my facts and get back to me.

southbay08

Well trust me, once again i am sorry to disappoint you but you may be surprised that we have a damn good reputation in the industry and after selling literally thousands of injectors, no one has called to tell me that their car blew up. Ask yourself why i would try to sell an injector that is not sized correctly how many people out there would be happy?. I have sold plenty to the members of this forum. Sorry but never had any complaints.
You tried to find a niche with your tbi injectors and you did what you had to do to learn and you received plenty of feedback and questions
I am doing the same thing and in doing so trying to do my best to take care of my customers and the members of this forum that have questions for me.....so please allow me to do that.

southbay08

Flow them yourself and then you can get back to me. I am not going to destroy this thread by getting into it with you.

InjectorsPlus

iTrader: (1)

No problem. I'll start a thread, I'm not trying to fight with anyone. All I want to do is present the facts so you can get your tune right. I hope they run great for you.

I thought you'd like to know what you really have it's important that the injector match the ECU constant. If it doesn't you are the one that is going to pay. Google the part number and see what you get. The whole world bills these at 24 pounds.

Witch Hunter, Motorman, Bosch, etc... All use the same numbers and rate them at 24 lbs.

Good luck.

We pride ourselves on expert technical service and honest representation. I look forward to your participation in the new thread. I need time to prepare it.

southbay08

i know exactly what other sites rate them at. I have never had to pay...i know exactly what i am selling and i stand behind it 1000%. And yes they have worked out extremely well for us, why do you think we sell them as such?
Now from this point on i am going to stick to the topic of the original post

87350IROC

iTrader: (2)

I appreciate your concern. Thank you for taking it to a new thread.

InjectorsPlus

iTrader: (1)

ok, if you want to call 24lb injectors 27s that's up to you. Everyone else's flow bench and spec puts them at 24. Even Bosch, the manufacturer puts them at 24. So......everyone else, including the manufacturer must be wrong.

southbay08

No reason for the sarcasm, do you trust the stan weiss flow rates??? Check this out and then as far as i am concerned i am done with this conversation with you.
0-280-155-715 22.45235.9169.7 43.53. 022.45235.934.541TopHighFord 3.0l, v8

guess they don't know what they are talking about either. I am done.

dspencer24

iTrader: (3)

why does it say that i started this thread?

dspencer24

iTrader: (3)

I know these are the 27's i was refering to the color not the number. I have these same exact ones at home. But im not sure why my name is under the first post but needs to be changed some how moderators help or delete this thread

AaronIROCZ

iTrader: (5)

All above posts were part of this thread Anyone have problems running Bosch III injectors with Edelbrock manifold? but as per the thread starter of that thread, he wanted all off topic posts removed from that thread. We collected all of the posts and made a new thread and yours happened to be the first one so it shows your the thread starter.

dspencer24

iTrader: (3)

OK well thanks still weird tho haha

87350IROC

iTrader: (2)

Thanks.

InjectorsPlus

iTrader: (1)

Those are not 27s. There is no such thing as a 27 unless it's custom made, and that is not what we are talking about here.

The thread does not need to be deleted. This is good and valuable information for others.

InjectorsPlus

iTrader: (1)

I think a good take away from this thread is the following:

The same injector can be rated at different rates depending on its application.

In a 3rd gen F-body, these specific injectors are 24s, which to this forum is all that matters.

If they go in a Jeep and the fule pressure is to Chrysler standards, they are 27s.

If we have an LS1 an injector can be rated at 28, as shown in the ebay advertisement.

So the issue is one of honesty in advertising. The FIC link on EBAY points out that the injectors were rated differently, but they were rated for that specific application, LSX engines. Which, IMO, is the correct way to rate an injector, related to it's application. If he said those injectors were the same for an L98, I'd have a problem with it.

If this were a Jeep forum, we'd be talking about 27 lb injectors, but we are not a Jeep forum. But if those injectors were listed for a Jeep, 27 would be a fair number. Anyone got an in line 4.0 in their Firebird?

For purposes of discussion, this board, we always base our ratings at 43.5, because that's what you guys need. To judge it any other way can cause you all kinds of tuning and operational problems.

So bottom line, I guess the old adage applies. Buyer beware. Be aware of how your vendors are rating injectors based on your specific application or you will wind up getting something different than you ordered.

For example, if you buy a 24 lb injector thinking it is 27 you run the risk of running out of power at the top end, because of leaning. That's best case. Worst case, you melt a piston. This is why I tend to like bigger injectors and like to talk to customers about their entire build.

A good example is I had a guy who was using 30 lb injectors, we bumped him up to 36, he said the entire characteristics of the car changed. He picked up a bunch of power all over the RPM range, especially mid-high. He was too small, but that is what was recommended. There is a little "feel" in these things, and it's not all about running a calculator, and you only get that from experience.

InjectorsPlus

iTrader: (1)

I agree with what you posted. It is EXACTLY what I said. Your own data here supports my position.

Thanks for the validation.

So I'd still love to know about your magic flow bench and how it comes to 27lbs at three bar.

How about this. You send a set of those 27lb injectors to RBOB, the mod here, he really knows injectors. He's a bright guy. Let him have them flowed at the place of his choice and post the results. I'd like to see an independent flow sheet done on these and have someone who has no dog in the fight pick the entity to flow them. Someone reputable. Whatta ya say? You know me, I'll all about proving points to remove any doubt. I would do this in a heartbeat. I'd relish the opportunity.

In fact, I'll go a step further. I will take that BOSCH part number and order those injectors from an independent third party supplier, this way they can't be modified before sending out, and have them shipped to RBOB for flowing (if he agrees of course). How about that? If you are right, I'll pay for the injectors. If I am right, you pay for them. Deal?

I believe FIC has them, and they have a good reputation here and in the industry. I'll buy four from him and have them drop shipped. I will never touch them. You supply four. We need four as a control group, to ensure the injectors coming from you aren't modified. We'll have a giveaway at the end of the test for someone here on TGO. We can figure out the criteria. Deal?

And btw, is Stan Weiss some kind of god or something? You must have been up all night looking for that. Really? IDK, I trust Bosch over Stan. As you said, who am I to question Bosch?

southbay08

Here you go,, we just took a random set and flowtested them. Here is what we got:

24.7lb @ 39psi
26.9lb @ 43.5psi
30.7lb @ 59psi.

We use the latest design ASNU machine along with the ASNU calibration fluid. We do not have a "magical" flow bench.

87350IROC

iTrader: (2)

I'm trying to find a local place to get them flowed today. If I find a place, i'll post up the results. Most places are closed on Saturday. I'm not holding up assembly longer than a day though. The car has been down since August and I finally have a free weekend.

InjectorsPlus

iTrader: (1)

Thank you.

dspencer24

iTrader: (3)

Yeah I tried the same, guy said he needed a formula to get the lbs per hour tho not sure hat that ment its only 25 mins aay from me.

dspencer24

iTrader: (3)

I should have results monday

southbay08

Please ask what calibration fluid they use to flow their injectors.

87350IROC

iTrader: (2)

Mine are being tested now. Will have results later today.

dspencer24

iTrader: (3)

oh you are to quick

dspencer24

iTrader: (3)

did you take them to witchhunter? bychance

InjectorsPlus

iTrader: (1)

Excellent!!!

87350IROC

iTrader: (2)

Is everyone on the edge of their seat?

I had the injectors tested at Carb Connection in Kirland, WA. They use a ASNU-01 flow machine. They test with heptane. This is a static flow test.

I had them test 2 Stock, 2 FMS, and 2 Bosch III injectors. Here are the results.

Stock 60 mL/15sec
FMS 65 mL/15sec
Bosch III 64 mL/15sec

Based on my calculations that equals

Stock 21.7lb/hr
FMS 23.5lb/hr
B III 23.2lb/hr

for heptane.

So what I am seeing is FMS is almost identical to the B III. FMS is known to be 24lb/hr. The data agrees. So as of now, I would have to say the B III is 24lb as well.

I do want to say thank you to those who brought up the issue.

I am not interested in hearing an argument. I am interested in hearing an intelligent discussion and I am interested in what Southbay has to say about this. I will report any post that is impolite, off topic, etc...

InjectorsPlus

iTrader: (1)

I am responding from my phone so I will keep it short. Thank you sir. I anxiously await the response. Dance baby dance. It is OK to gloat right?

InjectorsPlus

iTrader: (1)

Still doing yours?

irocuroc

I knew they were not 27's 3 days ago.. Not trying to gloat but I'm glad this came to a head finally. The back and forth fighting between all the forum members was getting annoying. Now for the explinations and more fighting! I can't wait to see the next posts

dspencer24

iTrader: (3)

I am glad we finally got results now. Thank you guys for bringing this to the table. This is good information, and im glad this thread was created. I agree the bickering was getting annoying. And yes I will still will do 1 of them on monday. The guy uses oderless mineral spirits he says the viscosity is closest to gas.

Injector plus do you have the formula that you use or who ever flows your injectors to get the lbs per hour? And yes you can dance if your not to old to (that was a joke)

Yes im a lil bummed at the news I was hoping for 27lber cause 30 seem to big and 24 seems a little to small unless pressure is turned up .
I know southbay will correct the situation without a problem and they still will have my buisness, good customer service is hard to find im sure there is a valid explination for this.

southbay08

Ok guys, i am well aware of the results and i thank you. I am calling my contact at ASNU for an anwer as to why we have a 38cc difference in our injectors...I want to send them a set of injectors for them to flow on the same ANSU bench with the same calibrating fluid that they recomend and we use. I will post the results good bad or indifferent. If at that time anyone who has a question or doubt as to the validity of the findings then contact me and i will be more than happy to give you my contacts number. There is absolutely no reason for fighting, it would be nice if we can all be civil for a change.

InjectorsPlus

iTrader: (1)

This is a complicated process and I will give a short answer. There is no "formula".

In layman's terms:

Using the above test they got 64CC in 15 seconds.

That's 256CC per minute

Divide that by 10.6 for heptane (we use a different fluid so it's 10.4)

and you get 24.15 in the above heptane example

We use ASNU fluid, it's about $35 a gallon, and we are the few that use it because it's expensive. We replace the fluid every week. The fluid breaks down and needs replacing after time.

It's a little confusing when you get into the details. We do different duty cycles, calculate the dead time, and add that to the flow. It really gets complicated. This is the most accurate method.

But in this specific case all you need to know is that the FMS injector that is KNOWN by everyone to be 24lbs flowed more on the same machine, same rails, same pressure, than the injectors in question. The methods are irrelevant, really that tells the story. Skunk **** could have been used as a fluid, and because it did not out flow the FMS known quantity, it's irrelevant.

Bottom line is, just know what you have and buy from people who know how to do this stuff so you don't have to worry.

And if I can give you a little crap, reference post #20... You didn't KNOW did you?

irocuroc

That's the only thing that matters. If you flow it on the same machine with a known 24 a 27 will flow more. If they match up then they are the same size. Pretty simple to me. I see no need for asnu rep to tell me that. A 5 th grader can understand that

InjectorsPlus

iTrader: (1)

Let me try to help out.....SB says they have been selling these 24s as 27s for a long time and has a lot of customers using them. The reason for this discrepancy is the machine is off or calibrated incorrectly. Wouldn't every single set of injectors that came off an uncalibrated machine be suspect for all the time these were rated at 27? Maybe a recall is in order? Perhaps every single set of injectors for that time period should be checked? It doesn't make a lot of sense that the flow bench would be off only for these specific injectors. In fact, it defies logic.

I can't speak to what anyone else would do, but I'd send a letter to all the people who ordered "27s" and offer to replace them all with verified 28s, which is a stock injector. That doesn't address the rest of the injectors that came off that bench. This is the reason I carry liability insurance. If someone did blow an engine up and this comes to light, it's key to have this insurance.

Something to think about. I'm going to bed, it's late.

87350IROC

iTrader: (2)

That is why had them flow the FMS and Stock injectors, because they are known controls.

By the way it was 64mL not cc's. And my calculation came out to 23.2 lb/hr. I'm wondering where our numbers got different. Its the engineer in me.

irocuroc

I thought in liquid a ml is equal to a cc.

dspencer24

iTrader: (3)

it is

87350IROC

iTrader: (2)

DOH. You guys are right. Maybe to many gasoline fumes today.

InjectorsPlus

iTrader: (1)

What constant are you using on the heptane? That comes out to 11.02 as constant, sounds high. I was tired last night and may have posted something stupid.

64CC in 15 seconds=256CC in a min 256CC/10.4=24.15lbs I just woke up but that's how we came out with it. However, your number of 23.2 does make more logical sense given the control injector by FMS. When I have a clear mind I'll think it over.

As an engineer you're well versed in how this stuff works. I think the variance is either machine calibration, or user error. What's your thoughts on that? Either way every injector that ever came off that bench is now suspect,would you agree? 19s going out as 22s.....22s as 24s......can anyone be sure of what they got?

Thanks again for taking your time to do this.