27# Injectors?
01-23-2011, 01:29 PM
#151
Re: 27# Injectors?
Southbay, your argument makes no sense. On one hand the entire injector selling community rates these one way, and you want to TOTALLY disregard that, then when it suits your needs you want to make this comment:
The "entire forum" got turned upside down? That has to be the funniest thing I have heard. There is one thread, this one, and it is discussing this between a few people. THE WHOLE FORUM? C'mon you're killing me, stop that, my side hurts. ENTIRE FORUM!!! WHEW! That's a good one. 
Because of 1 or 2 people? 87350IROC? DSPENSER? IROCUROC?
So which is it? Do we accept 20 years of history or not? Do we accept what the industry has to say or not? Do we call FMS and tell them for years they have been under rating injectors?
Either we accept industry standards, or we don't. I do. There can not be 2 rating systems, and there aren't. Unless you include yours and everyone else's. Just use industry standards so there's no confusion.
Companies have been flowing their injectors the same way for a good 20 years with the room temperature from 60 degrees up to 100 degress depending on their location but i suppose they are all wrong now also . Because we advertise one of our injectors as 27lb, this entire forum got turned upside down because of one or two people.
Because of 1 or 2 people? 87350IROC? DSPENSER? IROCUROC? So which is it? Do we accept 20 years of history or not? Do we accept what the industry has to say or not? Do we call FMS and tell them for years they have been under rating injectors?
Either we accept industry standards, or we don't. I do. There can not be 2 rating systems, and there aren't. Unless you include yours and everyone else's. Just use industry standards so there's no confusion.
Last edited by InjectorsPlus; 01-23-2011 at 08:11 PM.
01-23-2011, 03:35 PM
#152
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Re: 27# Injectors?
I am gonna go another way with this.
So does this mean that all bosch/siemans/lucas everything at summit jegs and any other places they sell these injectors dont really flow what they are rated for they flow more? Is this good then . How come this comapanys dont start using asnu fluid.
so does this mean that all 19lb injector flows in the 20s.
All 24lb injector flows 27lbs.
Southbay and injector plus please comment so we can put this to rest.
Bosch makes a black 24lb injector correct? All companys sell these as such
injector plus, southbay, fic and who ever sells these right
These are tested on heptane from bosch correct? And the "27" ones are tested the same right from the manufacture and they come out to 24lbs. So does this mean when we buy the black 24lb injectors we are getting 27 lbs
So does this mean that all bosch/siemans/lucas everything at summit jegs and any other places they sell these injectors dont really flow what they are rated for they flow more? Is this good then . How come this comapanys dont start using asnu fluid.
so does this mean that all 19lb injector flows in the 20s.
All 24lb injector flows 27lbs.
Southbay and injector plus please comment so we can put this to rest.
Bosch makes a black 24lb injector correct? All companys sell these as such
injector plus, southbay, fic and who ever sells these right
These are tested on heptane from bosch correct? And the "27" ones are tested the same right from the manufacture and they come out to 24lbs. So does this mean when we buy the black 24lb injectors we are getting 27 lbs
Last edited by dspencer24; 01-23-2011 at 04:53 PM.
01-23-2011, 05:39 PM
#153
Re: 27# Injectors?
[QUOTE=dspencer24;4798178]I am gonna go another way with this.
It is really irrelevent. The medium used to flow doesn't matter as long as we can agree as an industry which fluid will be the standard by which flow is calculated. As you pointed out, manufacturers chose HEPTANE.
Now Bosch is not a small company, and they are not known to do things "for the hell of it". They had millions of dollars in R&D money to pick or design any fluid they want, and they chose Heptane. WHY?
I have some theories...flash point? Maybe heptane is the same specific gravity at room temp as gasoline is when it's heated to engine temp and without the combustion issues? What is the specific gravity of gasoline at engine temp? IDK
Whatever their reasoning, they have more invested than all of us combined and right or wrong, we should just accept that this is the way it's going to be. Until manufacturers change their methods, I'm just going to accept it. I can't be so arrogant to expect the world to dance to my drum, especially when I'm out of time.
I don't know. But the bottom line, again, it doesn't matter. As pointed out in this thread, you can tune around these minor differences, TO A POINT, depending on your build. This is a marketing game, not a technical one, people want to think they have something special, hence, 27. The industry has decided that the standard is lbs per hour based on heptane, and it is MANUFACTURERS who set those standards, not **** ants like us.
As far as ANSU should just pack up and go out of business, that's just a hissy fit. I am not saying that, I am saying the manufacturer of the test equipment does not get to set the standard to test to, the manufacturer does. ANSU has no skin in this game, and quite frankly, their input really adds nothing to the discussion. All we have learned that if we flow an injector with their machines, using a certain fluid, it will measure a particular number. Big deal. We all knew that going in, that isn't the discussion.
That's the problem when people start inventing standards that don't exist. The 24s may indeed flow 27, and 42s may flow 48, if you use fluid which deviates from the standard.
These can be called anything we want to call them. I can call 24s, 55s, at the end of the day, what difference does it really make.
What matters is CONSISTENCY. What matters is that as an industry we agree that under certain and specific conditions, at a particular PSI of pressure, using a specific fluid, these will put out 256CCs of fluid per minute. If tuners agree, manufacturers agree, and guys like us agree there is no problem.
The problem arises when someone decides that they need to create a new standard. Let's say I did choose to run cat **** like I said earlier and I said, well now it's a 20 not a 24. I wouldn't be technically wrong. However, it would not work as intended based on industry standards. So I am right in a vacuum, big deal, it means nothing in the big picture.
Don't worry about flow numbers, worry about methods and means to get the number, if those methods are generally accepted industry standards, it is meaningful, if it is not, then it has no meaning.
so I suggest we continue with that history.
Stay tuned next week when we re-define the foot to 14 inches, then go build a house with standard sized lumber...we'll be using 4X8 sheeting, you guess which "foot" standard we use.
So does this mean that all bosch/siemans/lucas everything at summit jegs and any other places they sell these injectors dont really flow what they are rated for they flow more? Is this good then . How come this comapanys dont start using asnu fluid.
Now Bosch is not a small company, and they are not known to do things "for the hell of it". They had millions of dollars in R&D money to pick or design any fluid they want, and they chose Heptane. WHY?
I have some theories...flash point? Maybe heptane is the same specific gravity at room temp as gasoline is when it's heated to engine temp and without the combustion issues? What is the specific gravity of gasoline at engine temp? IDK
Whatever their reasoning, they have more invested than all of us combined and right or wrong, we should just accept that this is the way it's going to be. Until manufacturers change their methods, I'm just going to accept it. I can't be so arrogant to expect the world to dance to my drum, especially when I'm out of time.
so does this mean that all 19lb injector flows in the 20s.
All 24lb injector flows 27lbs.
Southbay and injector plus please comment so we can put this to rest.
All 24lb injector flows 27lbs.
Southbay and injector plus please comment so we can put this to rest.
As far as ANSU should just pack up and go out of business, that's just a hissy fit. I am not saying that, I am saying the manufacturer of the test equipment does not get to set the standard to test to, the manufacturer does. ANSU has no skin in this game, and quite frankly, their input really adds nothing to the discussion. All we have learned that if we flow an injector with their machines, using a certain fluid, it will measure a particular number. Big deal. We all knew that going in, that isn't the discussion.
Bosch makes a black 24lb injector correct? All companys sell these as such
injector plus, southbay, fic and who ever sells these right
These are tested on heptane from bosch correct? And the "27" ones are tested the same right from the manufacture and they come out to 24lbs. So does this mean when we buy the black 24lb injectors we are getting 27 lbs
injector plus, southbay, fic and who ever sells these right
These are tested on heptane from bosch correct? And the "27" ones are tested the same right from the manufacture and they come out to 24lbs. So does this mean when we buy the black 24lb injectors we are getting 27 lbs
These can be called anything we want to call them. I can call 24s, 55s, at the end of the day, what difference does it really make.
What matters is CONSISTENCY. What matters is that as an industry we agree that under certain and specific conditions, at a particular PSI of pressure, using a specific fluid, these will put out 256CCs of fluid per minute. If tuners agree, manufacturers agree, and guys like us agree there is no problem.
The problem arises when someone decides that they need to create a new standard. Let's say I did choose to run cat **** like I said earlier and I said, well now it's a 20 not a 24. I wouldn't be technically wrong. However, it would not work as intended based on industry standards. So I am right in a vacuum, big deal, it means nothing in the big picture.
Don't worry about flow numbers, worry about methods and means to get the number, if those methods are generally accepted industry standards, it is meaningful, if it is not, then it has no meaning.
Companies have been flowing their injectors the same way for a good 20 years.
Stay tuned next week when we re-define the foot to 14 inches, then go build a house with standard sized lumber...we'll be using 4X8 sheeting, you guess which "foot" standard we use.
Last edited by InjectorsPlus; 01-23-2011 at 07:13 PM.
01-23-2011, 07:45 PM
#154
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Re: Anyone have problems running Bosch III injectors with Edelbrock manifold?
This is a complicated process and I will give a short answer. There is no "formula".
In layman's terms:
Using the above test they got 64CC in 15 seconds.
That's 256CC per minute
Divide that by 10.6 for heptane (we use a different fluid so it's 10.4)
and you get 24.15 in the above heptane example
We use ASNU fluid, it's about $35 a gallon, and we are the few that use it because it's expensive. We replace the fluid every week. The fluid breaks down and needs replacing after time.
It's a little confusing when you get into the details. We do different duty cycles, calculate the dead time, and add that to the flow. It really gets complicated. This is the most accurate method.
But in this specific case all you need to know is that the FMS injector that is KNOWN by everyone to be 24lbs flowed more on the same machine, same rails, same pressure, than the injectors in question. The methods are irrelevant, really that tells the story. Skunk **** could have been used as a fluid, and because it did not out flow the FMS known quantity, it's irrelevant.
Bottom line is, just know what you have and buy from people who know how to do this stuff so you don't have to worry.
And if I can give you a little crap, reference post #20... You didn't KNOW did you?
In layman's terms:
Using the above test they got 64CC in 15 seconds.
That's 256CC per minute
Divide that by 10.6 for heptane (we use a different fluid so it's 10.4)
and you get 24.15 in the above heptane example
We use ASNU fluid, it's about $35 a gallon, and we are the few that use it because it's expensive. We replace the fluid every week. The fluid breaks down and needs replacing after time.
It's a little confusing when you get into the details. We do different duty cycles, calculate the dead time, and add that to the flow. It really gets complicated. This is the most accurate method.
But in this specific case all you need to know is that the FMS injector that is KNOWN by everyone to be 24lbs flowed more on the same machine, same rails, same pressure, than the injectors in question. The methods are irrelevant, really that tells the story. Skunk **** could have been used as a fluid, and because it did not out flow the FMS known quantity, it's irrelevant.
Bottom line is, just know what you have and buy from people who know how to do this stuff so you don't have to worry.
And if I can give you a little crap, reference post #20...
You didn't KNOW did you? 
01-23-2011, 08:17 PM
#157
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Re: Anyone have problems running Bosch III injectors with Edelbrock manifold?
re read it, he uses to balance injectors as well as most people in the industry. I have talked to 4-5 different places and all said they use heptane to flow and that other fluid is what they use to balance the injectors.
01-25-2011, 05:46 AM
#159
Re: 27# Injectors?
FWIW, I wanted to bring this full circle.
In one of the emails posted, I said I'd call Phil on Monday. And I did. I spent nearly an hour on the phone with Phil from ASNU and have come to the conclusion this is not rocket science. I have validated the following with Phil:
1. The standard ratings by manufacturers are with HEPTANE
2. LBs/HR is a crappy way to measure injectors. CCs is a unit of volume, LBs is a unit of weight. There needs to be global standardization, but there isn't. We can only worry about what the standard is for the US. If you look at my site, we sell import injectors by CC. It does get confusing.
3. Injectors are rated differently based on fuel pressure, big surprise huh? But what we are getting at is that manufacturers rate the same injectors differently based on fuel pressure. If you read the BOSCH specs, you will see that some are rated at 2.7 Bar, some at 4, some at 3.
4. For discussions of the US market, in after market injectors, 3 bar is considered the standard. Using HEPTANE.
The most important topic we touched on...is the following:
5. If we take two injectors that flow the same, they need to have the same rating, and the only fair way to rate that is using industry standards....in this case it means HEPTANE at 3 Bar for this market. I can't sell 2 injectors that flow the same on the bench with 2 different ratings. I used the example of flowing chocolate milk. If the industry standard is chocolate milk, we rate injectors with chocolate milk. Regardless how correct it is.
basically, I just asked Phil to validate what I have been saying, get points of inconsistency between us, and try to resolve them. There really wasn't any daylight between us. it was a discussion of semantics, which, at the end of the day, we agreed.
So at the end of this big circle, I am right back where I started, so I'm in good shape. My injectors are rated correctly, which is all I care about.
In one of the emails posted, I said I'd call Phil on Monday. And I did. I spent nearly an hour on the phone with Phil from ASNU and have come to the conclusion this is not rocket science. I have validated the following with Phil:
1. The standard ratings by manufacturers are with HEPTANE
2. LBs/HR is a crappy way to measure injectors. CCs is a unit of volume, LBs is a unit of weight. There needs to be global standardization, but there isn't. We can only worry about what the standard is for the US. If you look at my site, we sell import injectors by CC. It does get confusing.
3. Injectors are rated differently based on fuel pressure, big surprise huh? But what we are getting at is that manufacturers rate the same injectors differently based on fuel pressure. If you read the BOSCH specs, you will see that some are rated at 2.7 Bar, some at 4, some at 3.
4. For discussions of the US market, in after market injectors, 3 bar is considered the standard. Using HEPTANE.
The most important topic we touched on...is the following:
5. If we take two injectors that flow the same, they need to have the same rating, and the only fair way to rate that is using industry standards....in this case it means HEPTANE at 3 Bar for this market. I can't sell 2 injectors that flow the same on the bench with 2 different ratings. I used the example of flowing chocolate milk. If the industry standard is chocolate milk, we rate injectors with chocolate milk. Regardless how correct it is.
basically, I just asked Phil to validate what I have been saying, get points of inconsistency between us, and try to resolve them. There really wasn't any daylight between us. it was a discussion of semantics, which, at the end of the day, we agreed.
So at the end of this big circle, I am right back where I started, so I'm in good shape. My injectors are rated correctly, which is all I care about.
01-25-2011, 02:00 PM
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Re: 27# Injectors?
FWIW, I wanted to bring this full circle.
In one of the emails posted, I said I'd call Phil on Monday. And I did. I spent nearly an hour on the phone with Phil from ASNU and have come to the conclusion this is not rocket science. I have validated the following with Phil:
1. The standard ratings by manufacturers are with HEPTANE
2. LBs/HR is a crappy way to measure injectors. CCs is a unit of volume, LBs is a unit of weight. There needs to be global standardization, but there isn't. We can only worry about what the standard is for the US. If you look at my site, we sell import injectors by CC. It does get confusing.
3. Injectors are rated differently based on fuel pressure, big surprise huh? But what we are getting at is that manufacturers rate the same injectors differently based on fuel pressure. If you read the BOSCH specs, you will see that some are rated at 2.7 Bar, some at 4, some at 3.
4. For discussions of the US market, in after market injectors, 3 bar is considered the standard. Using HEPTANE.
The most important topic we touched on...is the following:
5. If we take two injectors that flow the same, they need to have the same rating, and the only fair way to rate that is using industry standards....in this case it means HEPTANE at 3 Bar for this market. I can't sell 2 injectors that flow the same on the bench with 2 different ratings. I used the example of flowing chocolate milk. If the industry standard is chocolate milk, we rate injectors with chocolate milk. Regardless how correct it is.
basically, I just asked Phil to validate what I have been saying, get points of inconsistency between us, and try to resolve them. There really wasn't any daylight between us. it was a discussion of semantics, which, at the end of the day, we agreed.
So at the end of this big circle, I am right back where I started, so I'm in good shape. My injectors are rated correctly, which is all I care about.
In one of the emails posted, I said I'd call Phil on Monday. And I did. I spent nearly an hour on the phone with Phil from ASNU and have come to the conclusion this is not rocket science. I have validated the following with Phil:
1. The standard ratings by manufacturers are with HEPTANE
2. LBs/HR is a crappy way to measure injectors. CCs is a unit of volume, LBs is a unit of weight. There needs to be global standardization, but there isn't. We can only worry about what the standard is for the US. If you look at my site, we sell import injectors by CC. It does get confusing.
3. Injectors are rated differently based on fuel pressure, big surprise huh? But what we are getting at is that manufacturers rate the same injectors differently based on fuel pressure. If you read the BOSCH specs, you will see that some are rated at 2.7 Bar, some at 4, some at 3.
4. For discussions of the US market, in after market injectors, 3 bar is considered the standard. Using HEPTANE.
The most important topic we touched on...is the following:
5. If we take two injectors that flow the same, they need to have the same rating, and the only fair way to rate that is using industry standards....in this case it means HEPTANE at 3 Bar for this market. I can't sell 2 injectors that flow the same on the bench with 2 different ratings. I used the example of flowing chocolate milk. If the industry standard is chocolate milk, we rate injectors with chocolate milk. Regardless how correct it is.
basically, I just asked Phil to validate what I have been saying, get points of inconsistency between us, and try to resolve them. There really wasn't any daylight between us. it was a discussion of semantics, which, at the end of the day, we agreed.
So at the end of this big circle, I am right back where I started, so I'm in good shape. My injectors are rated correctly, which is all I care about.
Originally Posted by DynoDon
MY thoughts......
As far as I am concerned, you have proved nothing in this
thread ('cept for your 'tude) because none of the
ratings mean anything.
If you tune the engine to the correct air fuel ratio
and do not excede the the proper duty cycle at WOT all is good,
no matter what anybody says the lbs. per hour are.
The difference between 24# and 27# in duty cycle at WOT wouldn't even be worth discussing, because if you are that close at 24#, 27# isn't going to help that much.
As far as I am concerned, you have proved nothing in this
thread ('cept for your 'tude) because none of the
ratings mean anything.
If you tune the engine to the correct air fuel ratio
and do not excede the the proper duty cycle at WOT all is good,
no matter what anybody says the lbs. per hour are.
The difference between 24# and 27# in duty cycle at WOT wouldn't even be worth discussing, because if you are that close at 24#, 27# isn't going to help that much.
The difference between the 24# and 27# are obviously notable. Yes you can build an illusion where it wouldn't matter because yes there are going to be situation where both would work. But in the same respect there are also REAL situations where 1 is wrong and 1 is right.
01-25-2011, 02:15 PM
#161
Re: 27# Injectors?
5. If we take two injectors that flow the same, they need to have the same rating, and the only fair way to rate that is using industry standards....in this case it means HEPTANE at 3 Bar for this market. I can't sell 2 injectors that flow the same on the bench with 2 different ratings. I used the example of flowing chocolate milk. If the industry standard is chocolate milk, we rate injectors with chocolate milk. Regardless how correct it is.
01-25-2011, 02:42 PM
#162
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Re: 27# Injectors?
To recap, flow of all three injectors flowing at 43.5psi.
Stock - Rochester
60cc/15s = 21.6 lb/hr for Heptane @ 43.5psi
or
60cc/15s = 23.5 lb/hr for Gasoline @ 43.5psi
FMS - blue top
65cc/15s = 23.4 lb/hr for Heptane @ 43.5psi
or
65cc/15s = 25.4 lb/hr for Gasoline @ 43.5psi
Bosch III - blue
64cc/15s = 23.1 lb/hr for Heptane @ 43.5psi
or
64cc/15s = 25.1 lb/hr for Gasoline @ 43.5psi
This is based on 0.681 g/mL for Heptane and 0.74 g/mL for Gasoline.
01-25-2011, 03:08 PM
#163
Re: 27# Injectors?
Ok in this scenario, do all injector flow benches produce the same results? Just like in head flow, we use 28" of H2O, but that does not mean the same head will flow the same on everyones bench. Is there a variance in any of the injector flows across different benches?
Although a good analogy, a head bench depends on other factors such as if you're using clay pipe and barometric pressure. I can show you 2 head flow benches on different sides of town that give slightly different answers. Can't do that with injectors. It's absolute.
What is being measured with an injector is quantity of fluid flowed at a specific pressure, over a specific period of time.
There's far less "fudge room" in an injector flow.
If your pressure is consistent, and the machine is maintained, you will get the same reading bench to bench because there are no outside influences as I mentioned above.
01-25-2011, 03:25 PM
#164
Re: 27# Injectors?
Cool, thanks for clearing that up. I dont want to get off topic but I had a question since injector flow methods are discussed. Are you able to monitor quality and quantity of injector spray at different injector pulsewidths? Simulations or anything?
For instance, if I was concerned about idle quality at low pulsewidths with a 96lb+ injector high Z, could you simulate that? Do 96lb at 3 bar even exist? lol
For instance, if I was concerned about idle quality at low pulsewidths with a 96lb+ injector high Z, could you simulate that? Do 96lb at 3 bar even exist? lol
01-25-2011, 03:37 PM
#165
Re: 27# Injectors?
Cool, thanks for clearing that up. I dont want to get off topic but I had a question since injector flow methods are discussed. Are you able to monitor quality and quantity of injector spray at different injector pulsewidths? Simulations or anything?
For instance, if I was concerned about idle quality at low pulsewidths with a 96lb+ injector high Z, could you simulate that? Do 96lb at 3 bar even exist? lol
For instance, if I was concerned about idle quality at low pulsewidths with a 96lb+ injector high Z, could you simulate that? Do 96lb at 3 bar even exist? lol
Now, if you need a 96lb injector, we can make a 96lb injector......for a price.
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