bdiroc

all right here is what I see corrrect me if im wrong. if you get an old accel intake(best aftermarket intake) it flows 251 cfm add extrude accel runners or super ram and it flows 240 or 243 cfm thru intake and runners (numbers straight out of accel training manual). then they say at the poor entry angle from intake to head you loose 12 to 15% of the intake flow so now even with accel intake and superram your only flowing between 206-213 cfm to the heads.

so its seems even with these parts you would never flow enough to come close to the need for afr heads. now I know dyno don and others are getting there intake to flow 300+ cfm(cost about $900 in part and labor) which could use nice heads but for 90% of the people on here you can save yourself a lot of money on heads if your keeping the tpi.

I will use my car as example I have 211 cam(lift .533) accel intake, extrude accel runners flow around 243 cfm intake thru runners, I have edelbrock heads 23degree flow 229 at 500 lift. wouldnt my intake be the restriction since it is only feeding at most to the heads 213 cfm? i know everybody says edelbrock heads suck but I have a full aftermarket intake and I still cant flow enough thru the tpi. so you know the car is running 13.01 @104 with a DA @2800 ,yes it runs right with mildly modified ls1's but want more. the way I see it is, I have to send my intake of to cali or buy a stealth ram for same price to fullly utilize my heads what do you guys think?

Dyno Don

iTrader: (7)

Yes, your intake is the restriction, we did a Edelbrock intake base and got 308 CFM, then added the ported Super Ram runners and didn't lose anything (still 308).

bdiroc

thanks for the reply don, now I just need to figure out which way to go. I dont have emission test here so stealthram would work but If I send my accel original intake off for porting then should I use my lingenfelter accel large tube runners that have been majorly ported or I also have 2nd design slp's runners(not the best) that im just starting to siamise down to 1 inch. which do you think will work better. I am shifting at 6000 rpm so I would think the slp's if done right will make more power since they will raise the peak rpm. I havnt dynoed my current setup yet but looking at maf readings it looks like it peaks at 5000 or 5100 max rpm. im sure it flat lines the rest of the way and its not maxed out yet reads in 240's. if you didnt have emissions don would you still tpi? I think I now the answer (you love a challenge)

godreject

iTrader: (1)

Don is quite fond of the tpi asthetics, which i can agree with. However it would be easier and cheaper for you to go with a stealth ram. Now with the stealth ram there is plenty of porting to be done to get the most out of it. Porting the tpi to flow 300 + will take some $ and alot of port time. You can always sell your accel stuff, buy the stealth ram.
I personally have both, a tpi set and stealth ram, haven't quite got the stealth ram tuned for comparison, but i prefer the looks of the tpi set up.

InjectorsPlus

iTrader: (1)

FIrst of all, PARAGRAPHS, USE PARAGRAPHS. For the love of god, how can we follow this.

The information is right, however, I don't see how it applies to your issue.


Flow is not a way to judge heads and afr is not the standard by which all other heads are judged. Just wanted to get that out of the way..

OK, this should be interesting. The way to save money on heads is to understand what you're building, and not buy into marketing. But let's move forward...

You got the right results, however, your thinking of how that happened is flawed. People say "EDELBROCK HEADS SUCK" because they are talking out of their ***. Many people, as you did above with your AFR comparison, buy into marketing crap or want to be validated for their purchase more so than understanding why things happen. There's nothing wrong with your Edelbrock heads even without knowing the model or anything about them. They make a quality product, you have them, work with them.

What you did was to get the right combination of parts. If you want more, you'll have to dig into the cam, and perhaps have your existing heads ported.

You seem to be all wrapped up in flow numbers. Here's a little secret for you...

FLOW NUMBERS LIE. You know how many intakes or heads manufacturers flow to get a flow number? Is it average port or is it the highest port they got on 100 sets of heads? Methods used to cheat them...pfffft. Forget them. Flow is published as a guideline, but need to be taken as a boulder of salt and not be used as a hard and fast guideline.

So my advice, stop worrying about flow as the primary foundation of everything your doing. Don't ignore it, just don't focus on it. Get yourself a bigger cam, port your heads and if you like TPI, look at a FIRST intake, they'll port it for free and they can supply that engine well into 6500 range with out modification. Sell your existing parts you'll be in it for a few 100 bucks that way. Fact of the matter is if you want to go faster, you have to spin the engine faster. Get a cam that puts you there and build to it.

For full disclosure, I just did a deal with FIRST, so I sell it. But I still think its your best way out. Dollar for dollar you'll get what you want.

Dyno Don

iTrader: (7)

Some of the things you say just amaze me

InjectorsPlus

iTrader: (1)

Which ones?

bdiroc

I edited for you to read better.

Only in America, I give 3 options for me to move forward with my car and you offer a totally different one. I understand your selling the first intake, which looks really nice,

So you believe my combo is matched correctly if understand what you wrote. I question this by looking into the flow numbers of parts. I think my intake is a restriction right now, not the cam and my goal is to make my heads to be the flow restriction (to get the max hp out of my edelbrock heads).

The whole thing with slp runners is to make the plenum bigger and a runner shorter, which moves the usable rpm of the intake up to probably close to the stealth ram intake correct?

I am just trying to make sure I’m getting all I can out of my motor. So you know here is my goal for now with my car, to runs 12’s while still driving to track with at most nitto’s and not changing to full slicks. Currently with my motor it is difficult to hook with just nitto’s but I have had a 1.71 60 ft just not consistently (car has 3200 vigilante stall, and 3.23 gears). So as much as I love the tpi torque I feel with my current setup and goals I could loose some bottom end and still be happy driving around town.

So to me these are my options

Stealth ram - $550 subtract selling tpi parts = someone paid me to change intakes, lost some bottom end, gained top end, flow enough to make heads restriction.

First intake- $1000 subtract selling tpi parts = cost $500 out of pocket, keep tpi look gain top end rpm and keep bottom end torque, flow enough to make heads restriction

DR J ports my intake and keep accel runners– cost $550 out of pocket, keep same hp and torque curve but gain power across the board, flow enough to make head restriction

DR J ports my intake and I Siamese slp runners down to 1 1/2 – cost $550 out of pocket, gain higher rpm and keep bottom end power, flow enough to make head restriction.


I have a feeling I’m going to buy a stealth ram and keep my accel parts for a later project but just wanted everybody’s opinions.

1989GTATransAm

iTrader: (3)

"Which ones?"

Let's just say that the "empirical" evidence we get from our dyno tests does not necessarily support your comments. I will just leave it at that as I am not interested in getting into a "pissing" match.

InjectorsPlus

iTrader: (1)

Thanks, not trying to be a PIA. I may have missed the mark with my first response. All I saw was flow.....flow......flow......flow...

Yes, I think you matched it up pretty well, and I'm just saying not to base all your decisions on flow numbers. There are other variables. Not that they are irrelevant, but don't use them as THE basis.

Yes, that's about CSA.

I think the stall is too high for the motor. If you're power curve is falling off 5300 ish or so, the 3200 is a bit high for at stock TPI engine. Good thing is, you can keep it! See that's problem with the TPI, the power curve runs out too soon.

As you said, you DO want to bring the RPMs up. GOOD! That's what you need to do.

I disagree with the "losing low end" theory. YES, it makes sense and it does happen. The issue is, the 700R and it's short first.

Is that with the throttle body and everything? Complete? I think it's more than that.

Yes, exactly. Except the head restriction. What heads are they?

Yep, another good choice. Again, don't know about the head restriction. We don't know what the cam and compression are to make that call.

I like your other 2 choices better. Just me.

I think you can go to a 3.73 rear and still be happy with it. I'd look at doing gears next that's going to help, and it will be pretty well matched with the rest of the engine/combo especially if you bring the high end up.

The other consideration is the cam, will the cam support the RPMs you're going to change out your intake to make? If so....perfect.

InjectorsPlus

iTrader: (1)

OK cool. Just know the difference between empirical and anecdotal.

bdiroc

the heads are the edelbrock 60859 which have just been cleaned up a little , motor is flat top 355 with 10.5-1 compression, the cam is the lingenfelter accel 211 cam specs 211/219, .536/.560 (w/1.6), 112 LSA (installed at +2)

I agree with stall but got a good deal on it from somebody on here with a miniram setup.

dont agree about gears until I get more rpm. already cant hook with nitto dr's ( I know not the best dr's) and gears would make it lot worse.

bdiroc

to further note my real motivation, it is a local guy I dont even no that races at the local track. he has 90 vette with 355 superram and 219 cam and mickey thompson slicks running around 4 tenths quicker than me. its not the 4th gens, mustangs or chargers I worry about, its someone with the same type of system out running me. I know his car is lighter but I still want beat him. in all truth, its the imports and turbo diesel trucks running quick at my local track not mustangs and camaros in the street class

Doom86

It's our shitty air them turbos love it.

Your cam looks like it's matched to your combo well IMO if you move capable power band in RPM with the intake you should change cams as well.

InjectorsPlus

iTrader: (1)

I'm with ya all the way on all of this! I like that cam, but I think it's a little mild for what you want to do. I did one with the 219/219. I liked that combo too.

165 Intakes don't leave a lot of room for growth, that's not a lot of CSA. I do know one guy running 11s with that size heads (GM HEADS), but his cam is much larger and it's an all out race car... SO...he'll tolerate stuff you won't. It's not the brand of head that's your issue, it's the size. But I think you're opposed to touching the heads.

To pick up .4 that's a hefty goal. Cam, more head (larger runner) and intake. Flow isn't going to be your issue, CSA is. You can not over come CSA with flow. A good porter can make those heads work. Also, like I said, the 700 trans you'll have to have it worked on to hold 1st longer.

InjectorsPlus

iTrader: (1)

AH! A friend of mine says.....I don't race cars, I race egos.....we ALL do! He has more cam...that's his advantage.

I bet his power band is higher and that's where he's getting you, so I see you want to move it up. BUT .4 is a LOT.

VincentZ28

iTrader: (2)

An old school racer told me once you have good parts. Instead of buying more parts, work with you already have. Once you max out what you already have then you will know the next step.

The combo in my sig is not the best combo but it's a step in the right direction. I have had my Super Ram since 1997. Headers since 2000. Heads since 2002. First time going to the Dyno in 2005 made about 320@5200. Since keeping the same parts except for cam change up to date I'm at 383@5950rpm. The 63hp increase came from porting the old parts. There may be some more hp to gain with some tuning and a different air intake. I will find out on 12-4-10. My opinion is just spend the money on porting. You will learn more with porting rather than just buying more parts. This is what we're doing down here in SOCAL. I bet anyone with your combo that you can achieve 365@5800 with the right porting.

InjectorsPlus

iTrader: (1)

How do you like the car making power up higher? What did it do for your ET?

VincentZ28

iTrader: (2)

Broke the trans while trying. Haven't been back to the track yet. Before the porting it was 12.41@112

InjectorsPlus

iTrader: (1)

Yeah, that's the weak point isn't it... mine lasted about 3 hours of spirited driving... oh well...

Well, post your before and after, can't wait to see it.

bdiroc

I could be wrong but I thought lt1 camaros where using the 211 cam with good results and there powerband is about where the slps or stealthram do there work. I will have to research it somemore. thanks for everybodys replys so far, its going to be a long winter here, so time is on my side to figure out what I am going to do.

what I should really do is leave it alone , paint it and enjoy the combo I have, which is able to hang with 4th gens and stock 5th gens camaros, I even outran my friends 2006 charger srt8 yes his mph was 2 mph higher than mine in 1/4 but his 60ft is only around 2.03-2.08 so he could do lot better.

Doom86

If those ports are 165cc and they have 2.02 and 1.6 valves you should be able to make them sing with full porting. They need a good +10cc more but who knows how thick they are?

If you want to beat him though you need more then an intake he's got too many things going for him.

With that stall I would have a hard time not going with a intake/cam combo that would bring peak in over 6k. You would stop blowing out the tires so much and pull harder down the track, win win