david068513

iTrader: (2)

I have a 1992 z28 350 car, I am going to upgrade to the 190 AFR vortec heads, and forged rods, pistons , crank, it has slp ported runners and ported plenum, will I need to upgrade to the stealth ram? What cam and stall should I go with? I am shooting for high to mid 11's on motor before I spray it. It also has a 52 mm tb and such. I want to do this in full street car trim.


Suggestions?

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

I think a stealth ram or miniram or singleplane EFI would make it easier to get to the mid 11's. You will need some RPM.

If you have to change intakes, might as well stick with conventional head and skip the vortec thing. More choices of intakes and heads that way.

If you are replacing crank, go with a stroker..build a 383. I think a 195cc head, stealthram/miniram/singleplane intake, and a cam with 230 deg duration on intake should get you near there.

I'd like to see more compression, something up in the mid 10's to 1 would be nice. 11 to 1 even better with a good head and decent cam. Flattop pistons are necessary with either stroke, 350 or 383 builds.

If you are set on TPI, you will need to have the base opened up alot and siamese/open up the runners to support 6K rpm.

Properly set up combo in a 383 should do upwards of 400whp. A 350 also doable for 400 but alot of smaller cammed setups should do atleast 350-370whp and trap 114-115mph which is what you will need to get into high 11's.

Do something like that, i'd consider 3600 stall speed or so.

Bullydawg

iTrader: (7)

Would the 11 to 1 be daily driveable with a 383 and last?

Tonysz383

I agree, for 11's all motor you will need CU's a 383 or 396 will do it. Bigger engines make more torque and that's what make heavy cars like ours move faster.

david068513

iTrader: (2)

Ok, the block that's in the car is a 1996 vortec 350 block. It has the SD vortec intake, I would prefer to keep the tpi just to say I did but would consider the stealth ram, I kinda want to keep it the vortec setup. I have a set of forged
pistons I can use brand new never used sitting in my house, they are speed pros and I believe dished, I'll have to go look later. I guess I could use the pistons in a build for my slow 305 car later on. My goal is 11'a before the shot though. I don't want to spend tons on this build. So trying to reuse some parts to save money.

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

11 to 1 is streetable with the right cam and 93 octane gas. My 383 was a mid 11's car and I could daily drive it if I didnt mind alittle bit of gas smell and the loud noise. It was a loud car thats the problem with higher compression and 4" exhaust...

How heavy is the car? Lighter is better and will need less power to get 11's.

The vortec manifold really will need alot of work to flow enough to support big power. Thats my only concern. I havent seen any TPI cars doing 11's lately, infact I cant really recall an fbody TPI LTR car running 11's. Low 12's yes but not 11's..the california guys on here make the power with fully ported and siamesed stuff but havent quite dipped the 11's yet.

Now you could keep your iron vortecs and have them fully worked and opened up with a bigger intake valve. I've seen guys get good results out of them with porting and larger valves but still may involve alot of money that you could easily just sell them off and buy a new set of heads. Best deal going is the Profiler 195's for 950-1200 depending on what you get with them. You'd have to get an estimate for the iron vortecs ported to see what that will run you.

Thats a vortec motor that will haul some ***. 556hp at 6400 rpm with that small cam. Its got a really worked over set of heads and intake..combo is WELL matched and squeezed all the power out of it they could. That will probably run low 11's in a 3400lb car.

I think you will have an easier time getting into the 11's with a HSR intake using one of the 195 cc heads out there. It will still be daily driveable if setup right. Proper converter, proper tuning, and right cam for the application. That setup above uses victor single plane, which is a shorter runner intake. HSR is about same length.

You could get the victor EFI vortec single plane and adapt it with a eldebrock intake elbow with a LSx based TB. Thats what I run on my car but non vortec version and a sheetmetal elbow.
http://www.summitracing.com/parts/EDL-29135/

Selling off the TPI base for the HSR will net a good intake for smaller investment. The Vortec intake is now 470 bucks in summit! Thats ridiculous! HSR is 500-550 with rails..

I havent seen the new AFR 190 vortecs in action anywhere but I havent really been looking to see how they perform. IF you were gonna spend that money I'd get Profiler 195s and use the savings for the cam. Any reason to keep it Vortec?

david068513

iTrader: (2)

Not sure on my weight, I'm going to the track on the 20th I'll weigh it. It is a full option 92 z28, pw, pl,seat,etc. G92 car. Only option it doesn't have is leather and the locking hatch cover.

I believe it weighs around 3500. I also will be using dynamics to tune it. Will headman longtubes support the power? I was gonna run headmans to a 3" y pipe.

The main reason I wanted to run vortec is all the vortec stuff on the car already. I guess I could sell it all off but I would prefer not too. I guess I could put the old heads on my 305 car.

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

Longtubes will handle the 11 sec power. Either 1 5/8 or 1 3/4" primaries. 3" collector is nice.

I can understand the budget concerns but I think you will spend more on the vortec TPI system to get it to work well with the heads/cam required to go 11's. You can save some money and port it yourself but theres a limit on how much you can get out of the base before needing to cut/weld/epoxy the ports to get the shape you need. I like the vortec singleplane or HSR better in this regard. Larger ports out the box and shorter runners to support the rpms.

Are you set on doing a 350-355" motor or could you step up to a 383? New cast crank is about the same price so might as well go 383 if you can. The torque will really help and keep it more streetable.

I've been around a few 11 second 350's and they are abit rough. Most efficient ones however are the LT1 guys with heads/cam packages pulling 6000-6500 rpm. Run higher 11's and are still somewhat streetable, but you need revs to get there. The 383's torque will pick up time in the 60 foot and first part of the track, and tend to be more streetable. A big cam in a 355 running 11's will still run 11's in a 383 but act abit milder due to extra cubes/stroke

david068513

iTrader: (2)

well I guess I could sell the TPI vortec stuff and gain some money back towards this. I am not sure on the 383 thing. I know nothing about building a stroker motor. Never done it before. What's different besides the crank? I understand the more cubes will deff. help make it streetable which I would like considering I drive this car on the street alot and down the highway and such. It's a pure street car. What about these heads? vortec fastburn 210's. the GM bow tie, E-tec 200's, are they any good or am I better off with something else?

1989GTATransAm

iTrader: (3)

Dyno Don went the TPI Vortec route and it did not turn out as well as he would have liked in trying to get into the 11's with his 355. He has since switch over to the "standard" TPI system and 23 degree heads. We are waiting on the dyno results then onto the track. He was running the Edelbrock 200cc E-tec heads that had been worked over. The 383 will be the easier route to achieve your goals. Just get the rotating assembly, crank, rods and pistons. With the right rods you can run a standard base cam.

david068513

iTrader: (2)

hmm thanks for the info, link to dyno Don's info on this?

1989GTATransAm

iTrader: (3)

Not sure he has posted the information. I visit his shop quite often so I know what he is up to.

david068513

iTrader: (2)

Ok, well what was the issues? Not enough flow or what?

david068513

iTrader: (2)

Can someone explain the differences when building a stroker from stock cubic inch. Clearance issues? What's different?

Guest

The intake base doesnt flow worth a @#$%, at least according to the flow data that Don obtained. The heads probably work just fine, but that is just part of the puzzle. I dont know why Edelcrock and SDPC didnt get a wild hair going and raise the port heights. There is still enough clearance below the fuel rail to do so.

Building a 383 needs different rods and/or pistons (you pick which one or two), and block clearancing. Those are the major things.

david068513

iTrader: (2)

I see what you mean on the vortec base, so if I use different rods I can't run stock style pistons? If I understand that right.

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

On a standard deck sbc block, you only get 9.025" from crank centerline to the cylinder head mounting surface of the block.

Most 350's have 3.48" stroke, 5.7" rods, and 1.56" pistons so they come in at about 9" total height, meaning they sit down in the bore .020-.025" alot of the time.

After machining, a shop will shave the block down to zero deck which is 9" so the pistons meet the top of the bore. This is prefered to keep a good .040" thick gasket on the block for best sealing and to give quench height of .040" which is generally accepted as optimal.

A 383 will run 3.75" stroke, so with a 5.7 rod, the piston will have to be only 1.425" tall in compression height (wrist pin centerline to top of piston) to fit a 9" deck height block.

Most 383's use either 5.7 rods or 6" rods. 6" give an advantage in that you can use a smaller height piston which is lighter, so you can pull more rpms. IF building a 6500+ rpm motor, this comes in handy. My 383 I used 6" rods. My 401 turbo I use 6" rods. They also tend to make it easier to balance the rotating assembly when using longer rods.

SO if you want to rebuild to a 383, you will have to decide on rod length and get a matching piston. If you keep deck at 9.025 which I dont advise, you will need a piston with abit more compression height. Since the block will need machine work for new bore for new pistons, might as well get it decked to clean up the head surface so they seal well. Bring it down to 9.00-9.010" deck height and run a typical 383 stroker kit with 6" rod, 1.125" piston and call it a day.

may need to clearance the block where the rods/crank swing near the oil pan mounting areas and possibly around the bottom of the bores.

Also may need to run a smaller diameter base circle cam for rod clearance but that depends on the rods you use.

1989GTATransAm

iTrader: (3)

Regarding the TPI Vortec base a ton of work was put into it including raising the injectors and welding and after all that it was at the level of a worked over Accel base with no welding or other work. Dr J got just over 330 cfm by doing some welding and making a max effort. Flowed out of the box it only beats the factory TPI intake manifold. I don't think Don ever flowed the heads but they had been worked over.

cuisinartvette

330 is prety impressive for a TPI base, nice. Nothing like having a sonic tester and welding abilties.. If only...

david068513

iTrader: (2)

Ok thanks, I get it Now my next question is will the 383 stuff end up costing more then a standard 350?

I'm thinking going HSR will be what I have to do. What do you think it would cost to build a 383 and a 350 to what I want? For price differences and such.

cuisinartvette

Its minimal, crank is pretty close to the same, block clearancing 75-200 depending on where you go. Checking clearance for rod bolts etc always has to be done. Right selection of parts off the bat can minimize lots of this.
Good balance job is worth its weight in gold, even if the rotating assy says it comes balanced spend the money and have it done again, period.
Youll never build a 350 again the difference is that noticeable not just up top.

1989GTATransAm

iTrader: (3)

"330 is prety impressive for a TPI base, nice."

I think Dr. J/Bryce charges around $500 for the full port job. The Accel base is the best one out there as it has the better port design from the get go. I believe we were around 320 cfm for the Edelbrock TPI base. Next issue is you have to have the runners to match or it is for naught. It's only money.

Then of course there is the First that flows 301 cfm right out of the box. Mine has been cleaned and opened up some so I suspect I am flowing around 315-320cfm. That should be enough to properly feed my AFR 195 comp heads. If not over to Dr J we will go.

I agree on the 383 route if you can afford to go that way. Select the proper rods and you don't have to use a small base camshaft. Go with the longest rod you can squeeze in there. Orr mentioned a 6" and that is what I would do. As to pistons Mahle makes some nice ones with the 1.5mm, 1.5mm, 3mm ring package as used on the LSx motors. This will help to reduce friction and increase hp. They also come coated on the piston tops and sides. Again it is only money. Hahahaha.

david068513

iTrader: (2)

Hmm, how much assembled do you think this will cost?
Thanks for the info, only money? That I don't have lol.

Doom86

Weight reduction will be key too, getting down to 3100lbs race weight will help.

A good 200cc or 210cc will work best for a 350 but plan on going +6,500RPM.

If I was building a stupid power FI 350 I would be inclined to try a LSx type grind.

You ever think of Turbo? With the money it will cost you to buy heads, new FI intake, swap ect you could be investing in that and get your street-able 11's all the easier.

david068513

iTrader: (2)

the car is a street car and will hit the track the same weight it's on the street. I wont go lsx. Forced induction will Probley end up being twice as much to build this kind of power.

1989GTATransAm

iTrader: (3)

Actually you can build a 383 cheap enough. Just shop around for parts. You can use 5.7 rods as an example. Plenty of stuff out there.

Doom86

You can still shed a good bit of weight and should. Hitting that ET with 3550lbs is going to be hard.

I wasn't suggesting you go LSx just copy the style of grind. The comp XFI grinds are close as off the shelf get. The reason I would try it is because they make huge power-bands with less choppy, more vacuum, bottom end.

The Profiler idea is a good one you can save a good $300 or so and put it towards something else. This TPI **** is expensive I would be trying to save a buck where ever I could. 195's at least, I would like a bit more but that's just IMO. The thing I really like about these heads is that they use a unique casting technique that leaves their "as cast" finish as good as most CNC ported heads.

InjectorsPlus has the best deal going on them I can find under a grand that is a steal for these heads.

I figured I would throw the Turbo idea out there since you could have it all done for a good 2-2.5grand which is probably what you'll spend here. Either way will be a blast.

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

I'd be worried about valve control. LSx grinds have a larger base circle to begin with so when they get abit more aggressive on the lobes, the lifters can still work and be controlled. SOme of the real aggressive stuff eats valvesprings on those motors. Its a reason why some SBC guys have the cam tunnel cut for BBC cam cores. Darts SHP Pro block is now available with BBC cam tunnel

You dont need to get real crazy with the cam in a 383 to hit 11's. Use a good intake/head and it will get there, even at 3550lbs. I ran a 1" base circle cam on my car and it was fine with rod clearance. With either of those heads--profiler/afr/dart pro 1 etc, a good .600" lift or close to that is prefered.

THe profilers are good heads as cast, but the components used in them are not all that great, depending where you get them. If you get them from Chad Speier from Speier racing heads, you will pay closer to 1300 bucks but will get much better valve springs and valves. 1500 with Chad's econo ported cleanup which is nice to have, so they are now AFR priced but have hand finished touch...
AFR out the box has good springs. No idea what rocker studs are on them, so i'd swap out to some ARP studs. Thats what I did to be safe when running over 400lbs pressue over the nose.

A specific cam should be chosen for the build and specific matching springs should be included in the heads...Chad will do that for you, and AFR's 8019 spring will handle just about any hydraulic roller under .650". Shim for more pressure and should be good with any cam under .625" or so.

david068513

iTrader: (2)

Thanks for the info guys, I prefer not to turbo because while it is better for a street car there is a lot of maintaince and such that gets expensive. I like it very simple for right now. I'm gonna have to build my trans to handle this too. How do you guys fill about using dynamics to tune? I have never tuned anything so it will be a learning experience for sure.

david068513

iTrader: (2)

Also how much more would it be to go to a 396?

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

I dont think its worth the effort to do 396 over 383. Need more stroke and less piston... more clearancing for the block. Not many piston choices available compared to a 383.
Power different is negligible IMO

david068513

iTrader: (2)

I was just curious anyway if it's cheaper to build the 383 and get what i want out of it and parts are easier to find and such. If motor will have to live in traffic and long drives, that's why I'm keeping overdrive. It needs to last on the highway and such.

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

Yeah a good overdrive 700r4 with lock up converter and a 3.42 gear it will drive great. Good compromise for mileage and track performance with 26" tire.

david068513

iTrader: (2)

I will probley leave my 3:23 gear in there for awhile. I will have to build the trans up alittle to handle it though.

I accutally saw your video on here and youtube last night of your 383 HSR car running and such. What was your build list?

david068513

iTrader: (2)

Ok, someone might be buying all my tpi setup stuff. Idk about selling the intake and such cause I've got nothing to replace the heads and intake with....

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

That motor was fun. It was a forged bottom end by Eagle with SRP flat top pistons, AFR 195cc heads, Ported holley stealth ram, 58mm holley TB, Bret Bauer custom grind..230/245 on a 109lsa .603/.613" lift with 1.6 rockers, hooker long tube headers, 4" single exhaust, 700r4 trans built up, 3600 stall by Edge racing. stock 4thgen 10bolt rear with 3.42 gears.
Thats basically it. Ran a best of 11.47 at 118 with best trap of 119 in July-August hot air weather in PA. In the winter I expected another 2 tenths and 1.5-2mph. I've always picked up that much in cold air. Sometimes even better. Never ran it again n/a...i picked up a bottle in October and sprayed it 7 times to a best of 10.6 at 127.

If you really want to try to sneak 11's on TPI, here's what I'd do. Port out the vortec base as much as you can without having to reweld. I dont know if it will support the flow needed to turn the rpms/make the power required to go 11's but you can try first. Siamese the SLP runners as much as you can. Cut the runners out several inches in. The base runner is around 6-7 inches in length. The SLP runners are another 7" or so. I'm just estimating they may be longer. The heads are 4.5-5.5". Thats a total of 19-20". You want to be closer to 12" like an HSR. So you really need to cut out alot of divider wall on the SLP runners...4-5" and leave 2-3" depending on the actual length of the runner.

This will enable you to try a vortec combo that will rev to over 6000 rpm and HOPEFULLY make 370-380whp to sneak into the 11's with good converter and sticky tires.

If not, swap intakes to a ported vortec HSR and retune...try again. It SHOULD get there.

Else, sell all the vortec stuff, start over with conventional 23deg heads and regular mild ported HSR or Miniram or single plane EFI and for sure hit 11's.

Its up to you with how much work you want to put into this. I'd sell the TPi stuff and get vortec single plane or HSR if you use the 190cc AFR vortecs. I havent seen anyone use those heads yet but I havent looked to hard. They should be very promising as the large port GM vortecs seem to do pretty good and ported small port vortecs have been shown to make great 500+hp.

david068513

iTrader: (2)

I thinking if I can sell all the vortec stuff and pick up a HSR and some 195 cc heads, I would be better off but I have to get a different lower intake cause I only have my SD vortec base intake right now. That will help a lot. I could try the vortec route with the HSR but I don't think I will get the 11's...it would cost enough that it wouldn't be worth it.

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

I think the cost of total HSR setup vs cost of base/runners for TPI is about 100-200 bucks cheaper to go HSR. You can do the HSR for less than 650 with rails and fuel lines to connect to stock hard lines.

Vortec TPI base is 470 in summit last I saw. You could sell that off for easily half of the HSR setup alone.

Or you can try single plane EFI or proflo XT from edelbrock.
With the large port larger valve vortec heads I'm sure you will hit 11's, but there are a few tried and true 11 second 383/195cc/HSR type setups on here..some superrams too.

david068513

iTrader: (2)

Yes but if I sell it all I still have to buy heads and such and it will be hard for me to get this done. Gonna need a good lower intake and such for the heads, or does the HSR come with a lower intake? I still need to come up with like a grand for the heads to get it all together.

mightymaro94

back on the cuttin weight thing... you can cut a fair amount of weight and still keep it a very streetable car... things like rear seat delete (if you dont haul ppl ) , aluminum d.s. ... lighter wheels... glass hood... im not sayin to do any of this im jus showin some really easy ways to cut wt.... i know one guy that installed carpet with NO insulation for heat and sound... just to save some lbs.... ur call

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

Holley stealth ram (HSR) is two piece manifold. COmes with a lower intake and a plenum. Thats all you need other than the fuel rail kit that is available and two custom fuel lines to attach to the hardlines on the car. TPI is 3 piece using runners lower intake and plenum. Cant use the TPI fuel rails with HSR.

You planned on upgrading the heads either way, vortec 190's or something else in the 190-200 range that arent vortecs. Then you just need to sell the vortec base and buy HSR package which should only cost you around 350 or less after you sell the vortec intake...thats including rails/regulator/fuel lines
Thats an option.

david068513

iTrader: (2)

Yea but Once I sell it I need to come up with the money for the heads. Etc. If you get that. So before I sell them I would need to save up a few hundred more for the heads.

I'll Probley just build another block on the side and then switch my heads and HSR over when I'm done. So I can still drive it around and such for now.

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

Yeah I get that. I dont expect it to happen all at once. Its an engine build, those take alittle time sometimes

Are you trying to drive this car for awhile and planning on swapping the setup over a weekend? Whats your approach to this build?

I took it as you were planning this motor, and would be building it on the side. So I wasnt able to comprehend your reasons for being so hesitant to sell the vortec intake

david068513

iTrader: (2)

Correct I'm gonna build it on the side and then swap the blocks out and such in a weekend or such. I would like to be able to still drive the car around while I build the motor. So if I sell all that before I have the money for the heads I can't drive it for alittle while. I don't drive it alot but I would like to be able too and incase I get out of hand with the build and take forever.

david068513

iTrader: (2)

The vortec stuff is on the car and I don't have a stock intake or heads to swap on till I get the new heads

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

Take your time with it and build the motor on the side. If you wanted to stick with vortec you can buy the vortec HSR and sell the TPI and run that setup on your current motor for the time being. Its a fairly easy swap to do. Thats a weekend job with all the parts.

Get used to tuning that setup and you'll have a better starting point when time comes to swap in the 11 second 383 I would imagine the vortec hsr and 190 vortec heads or similar can do 11 second slips

I didnt do it like that...i had my car down for 6-7 months building the 383. Almost 10 months doing the turbo build. I wish I had kept that 383 in it longer to enjoy the car one more year, but then again the build would have taken longer. Selling the 383 funded the project..

david068513

iTrader: (2)

Yea I might try the 190 vortecs and HSR for right now and just build the motor on the side slowly so I can still drive it around and not rush it.

I'll build the 383 on the side and swap things over or sell off what I don't need.
Plus I could use my old vortecs on my tbi car to pep it up a bit.

What are you guys using to tune?

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

I use tunerpro RT.

david068513

iTrader: (2)

I Probley won't do any of that. I like the stock hood, the rear seats will stay, wheels I'll Probley switch at some point, aluminum driveshaft I'll Probley do. No insulation won't happen lol
Never heard of that one. I've heard good things about dynamics.

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

I havent heard of dynamics...as long as it gives you the ability to adjust all the basic parameters in the bin file it should be good to go.