BOSS 357

iTrader: (1)

I'm in the final planning stages for my head & cam swap to start in July. I have an 89 TPI, fully ported to ASM runners from TB to manifold, 30lb injectors. This is a street-only weekend warrior car that occasionally sees only 5000 rpms. I've been researching like a madman for the past couple weeks and here's what I like:

AFR 180 Street Eliminator heads, straight plug
CC 260XFI cam http://store.summitracing.com/partde...8&autoview=sku
CC Pro Mag 1.6's
*shooting for the requisite .040 quench, 8.5 DCR, mid/upper 10's SCR, and would be nice to see 350 hp/400+ torq at the crank

Questions:
1) will all these parts work in harmony?
2) my hydr roll cam doesn't need a break-in period, should I short change the oil to get rid of all the assembly lube or let it go for the full cycle (which is 1 year on AMSOIL) ?
3) CC recommends a composite distributor gear for this cam, is that just an up-sell or is this genuinely a good idea? I do want the best parts but not unnecessarily.
4) The suggested CC springs are the same OD, have slightly lower pressures, a higher coil bind, less overall rate, same max lift. Will my cam choice work with the AFR 1.290/360# springs?
5) I will have to measure both the VTP clearance and for new pushrods. The VTP has no head gasket installed and the PR needs the HG installed, so......which needs to be done first?

Thank to all who reply,
Eric

305sbc

iTrader: (3)

*I think the overall combination is good.
*Any time you have the engine apart or add things like a set of heads you should change the oil after a few miles of running. You don't have to but it's just a good idea.
*I've never run a composite distributor gear. Maybe they were talking about an oil pump drive or cam sprocket?

*You can't determine lift limit by the spring specs alone. You have to know the exhaust installed height. You subtract the bind height from the installed height and then subtract 0.050" and you have your reasonable lift limit for the springs. You will need at least 0.600" to work with your 1.6:1 rockers.
You also need to know the retainer to guide clearance and the thickness of your valve seals so you'll know if the retainers are going to contact the seal or guide.
The AFR springs may be overkill for your camshaft, but will probably work fine if they can handle the lift. Without knowing spring part #'s or the weight of your valvetrain I couldn't really say. If your heads have the thinner 8mm valves and beehive style springs then the weight shouldn't be a problem.


*You always measure for pushrod length LAST after the heads are bolted on for good.
It's ok to measure PTV clearance without a gasket.

edit: I assumed you know that you will need a good bit of tuning.

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

I take it your using the bottom end in your sig? Is your block zero decked and does it use flat top pistons? Definately keep compression high, 10-10.5 to 1 is good with those smaller cams and AFR heads.

I personally think you should go with the XFI 268 cam...the next size up Its a proven cam and will get you over 320whp easily on that setup... which is closer to 375-400 hp crank. And you still wont have to go over 5200 rpm.

XFI260 should make over 300-310whp easily as well, but why sell yourself short?

But to answer your questions

1) yes they will work great, either cam 260 or 268 which is what i'd do.
2) after doing heads/cam... i'd give it a few hundred miles with a fairly cheapo oil and then change it out. Just to be sure you didnt get any dirt/gasket material, etc in the motor. Blow out the heads to be sure no material is left inside of it from machining/packaging/etc. Either way i'd still change oil often if you drive that car alot. 2000-3000 miles is ok for a mild driver but if you do any kind of racing every now and then, change the oil again.

3) Not sure what they mean there. Stock dizzy gear is fine.
4) AFR springs are a good match for the mild XFI cams. Anytime you want to rev an aggressive cam like the larger XFI280 and similar to over 5800-6000 rpm, then get AFR's upgraded 1.27" spring. For your setup, the standard AFR 180's will be fine. They can handle .600" lift. I've compressed them to verify their advertised coil bind is pretty conservative.

5) if your pistons are flattops with any kind of valve relief, and your using the 65cc head, and your block is zero decked, I dont think you'll have any piston to valve clearance problems. I've run a much bigger cam with plenty of clearance.

Either way if you want to measure it heres what i did. I'd get an adjustable push rod checker. Then put the head on the block without gasket. Use the pushrod checker and adjust it. Set up your rocker and tight it down. Crank motor around and watch the center of the roller tip rocker. Verify its around the center of the valve tip at half way lift. If all is good, pull head, put clay on the pistons and reassemble.

For PTV clearance, Its best to have a solid style lifter for this to get full valve movement or else you'll see more clearance than what you normally would when the lifter is fully pumped up.

With the clay on the piston, crank the motor over two times then check the clay. Then add the .040" to your measurements for that gasket and if they look acceptable, your golden.

So basically you should do pushrod first, then PTV clearance. It all basically can be done at the same time tho. Put clay on first, then mock up the rocker arm/pushrod. Make a part crank to get pushrod length about right, then crank it over 2 times and verify. Kill 2 birds with one stone

BOSS 357

iTrader: (1)

Thank you for the reply 305.

Orr-
Yes, the bottom end is the one I'm going to keep. The block is not zero decked, the pistons are Federal Mogul 5cc relief hypereutectic. I am assuming that Jasper has not decked my block, the general spec sheet says they "square deck" the block. I have no idea what that means, either way I plan on measuring. I did some initial calculations, and if I left the block alone and used even one of the thinner compressed gaskets (not a steel shim .15), I'd have no real compression to speak of, not to mention my quench would be shot all to hell.

I looked into decking; the price seems reasonable enough ($140) however I didn't plan on tearing my engine down to the block for this project. Frightening at first since this is my first foray inside any engine. After I thought about it I realized, all that would be left would be the crank, pistons, and oil pump/pan to be removed, right? That doesn't sounds quite so bad but does raise a couple more things I need to look at. I'll get to that later.

1) My rationale for the 260 was not so much that I never want to rev past 5000, just that I have no real need to in the stop-light-to-stop-light world, hence the 1200-5200 range was what caught my eye. The amount of power I can get for the same price with the 268 has changed my choice.
I'm not questioning your advice, but if you could please explain how the 268 will make that much more power than the 260, I need an education!

3) I looked into the distributor gear situation, I'll most likely get a new "stock" gear since this one has been use for who knows how long. It's iron and the .491, correct?

I appreciate the how-to's on the PR/VTP measurements, I think that will be E-Z enough. Only thing, I cannot find the length of the pushrods I have even now. CC recommend 7.2 for the 268XFI cam, and 7.2 for the 264HR installed now, so to measure for the new ones, I'm looking at a length checker tool from about 6.125-7.500 (CCA-7905) with the cam/RRs/heads/possible decking going on?

Last, I did some more calculations that assumed a decked block. With everything said above and the recommended AFR head gasket, I got a SCR of 10.29 and DCR of 8.57. I could drop the DCR down a few points if I use the .039 head gasket, to about 8.3ish. Is 8.57 too much by .07 or would it not hurt me?

A lot to think about, thanks for clearing things up Orr.

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

WHen you go to do the heads/cam, try to put one of the pistons at top dead center and measure how far down in the hole your piston is. Standard deck height is 9.025, but some new blocks wont be totally smooth at that standard deck, and if it was a cleaned up used block, they may have taken a few thousands off to make sure the surface is clean/smooth/flat. Your deck height may be anywhere from 9.000 to 9.025".
Standard 350 rotating assemblies are 9" in length but some pistons can be shorter than normal compression height of 1.56". Some can be 1.54" meaning your rotating assembly is only 8.980" long which is another 0.020" below the deck. You could be as much as 0.045" below the head deck!! Any gasket at that point will kill quench and chances of decent compression.

So before you choose a gasket, find out your piston to deck clearance. Then take it from there to determine your gasket thickness and compression ratios.

SHouldnt be all that bad once you get down to that point. Just pop everything out and deck the block, clean the block, then reassemble the rotating assembly again same way it came out. Always good to double check your clearances tho just in case the decking shifted some of the clearances but i'd doubt that.

If this is your goal to keep it a mild motor, then you certainly could save money on a cheaper set of heads/cheaper cam choice. I only suggest the 268 because its also a mild cam but will make more power than that 260. How much? i'd say up to 15whp at peak depending. I know the 268 is capable of near 370whp on some motors which is very impressive for that cam. More than likely most will make around 330-350whp since you may not be running enough compression or high flowing intakes/heads packages, or great exhaust systems. I seen a heads/268 cam/longtube header LT1 make near 370whp thru manual. Several guys on here make between 320-350whp with that cam on modded TPI setups. Yet these cams are very mild.

I dont know anyone using the 260 cam to date. But from the specs i can tell you its capable of making over 320whp on those heads and yet drive like stock. Its not too much bigger than stock other than the lift. Its similar to Cranes '227 cam (powermax 2033) which is popular in the LT1 world. 210/224 duration and i've seen ported LT1 headed setups make 350whp with that setup. I've seen a guy make 316whp with stock LT1 heads and cast iron exhaust manifolds with that cam thru a 6spd! Now a TPI setup may make 15whp less than these since it wont breath as well up top as the LT1 intake. Thru an automatic you may see less as well.

I just feel the 268 is the proper cam for your TPI 357" motor especially if compression works out to near 10 to 1 static. I'd take the extra power it makes up top, but thats just me. I like to see 5500rpm on the street occassionaly

If you do like the XFI lineup then AFR heads are probly the best head out the box right now for those cams. Their springs are perfect match for the smaller 2 cams. The upgraded AFR spring is better for the bigger XFI cams. Plus AFR flows well to .550-.600 lift so the cam is getting the most out of those heads.

This i'm not sure on but i have used my stock 160+ mile dizzy on my 383 for another 1600 miles with no problems and i plan to reuse it again on my twin turbo 400 Aint broke why fix it?

yes pushrod tool between 6.5" and 7.5" will work. That one you list is the one i have i think.

I confirm, roughly 10.26 to 1 with .040" gasket zero decked block, your pistons, and AFR 65cc head. DCR looks about right but i didnt check it. 8.57 is fine with AFR heads and good pump gas. I'd run 93 oct but it may like 91 ok. Depends on how much timing you run but i dont think you'll have any problems. AFR heads are pretty efficient heads. I've run them very lean air fuel with aggressive timing and had no problems on 93 oct with 11 to 1 static and 8.33 to 1 dynamic. So with proper tune and abit higher DCR, i dont think it will be a problem

BOSS 357

iTrader: (1)

Orr, I can't thank you enough for your help. I'm sure over the course of a few posts, you've spent more than enough time with my issues. Thanks again.

You don't have to respond here but I just want to mention a couple things. I've read through my Chilton and the engine assembly is pretty clear on what to do as far as the pistons etc. This engine MIGHT have 5000 miles on it yet, I'm rebuilding it pretty early on in it's life. It was made to resemble a mildly upgraded stock TPI engine (but these Dart SS heads are crazy..72cc chamber?). I believe the internals are of good quality and should last a good long while. I don't take offense to "mild motor" (I type that with a smile), but my goal is to go above that moniker. Cheap wasn't a term I was thinking when I chose any of these components (again I say with a grin), I want the best I can get (I re-fi'd my house to get the money to finish the car) as this might be my last project car for some years (boooooooo). I agree with your assessment of the 268 cam & AFR heads.

After it all gets put together, I'm either going to try and have the engine Dyno Jetted or Mustang Dyno'd (I know there's a Mustang Dyno around here) and tuned by a pro. I WILL get every thing I can out of this setup. You only get one midlife crisis car! I'll certainly post the numbers when it gets done sometime early next year.

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

I"m glad to help when I can.

Definately looking forward to the results. I dont think you'll be dissappointed in the motor combo there. Any setup that makes mid lower 300whp range is pretty fun stuff. Certainly not 'mild' but its not a 'hot' street type setup. Thats all i was saying. Mid lower 300whp range is full bolt on LS1 power and thats definately a quick street car.

If this will be your last project for awhile, then it certainly is a good way to go.

navyCM

iTrader: (3)

I just wanted to say that i found this forum EXREMEMLY helpful in me making a decesion on a cam. i plan on using the same heads as BOSS 357 on my 350 TPI build. i was torn on my choice of cam to get the most out of the heads. my other option left now for a cam is the CC 08-306-8. so which would be better the 268XFI cam or the CC 306 to get the most out of the heads? wanting to get into the mid low 300rwhp range.

many props Orr

navyCM

iTrader: (3)

heres the comparison of the cams. the only real differance is one have a longer duration than the other andvice versa on the lift. so which is better lift or duration?

http://store.summitracing.com/compar...=KeywordSearch

BOSS 357

iTrader: (1)

Maybe it doesn't make sense for me to offer advice sine I was the one who asked in the first place, but I'll try anyway.

I think the difference would be where you want your power. Your may be higher up wit the 306 vs. the 268. A couple rules of thumb I used were:
1) Less Duration, More Lift with TPI
2) this calculation proved helpful in determining which cam I went with (although not quite as helpful as Orr)
--> adv int dur - .050 int dur = power
The result (for TPIs) should be around the "50" range, the lower the number the better. My 268 equals a 50; your 306 would be 60.

I also wanted as much lift and I could get away with, without having to upgrade springs. My 268 w/ 1.6 RRs will be .570/.565 as opposed to the 306 with .510/.540 with 1.5 RRs. If you bump that with 1.6 RRs you could help that 306 a bit, but I believe the duration is still a bit much for a TPI.

I hope I'm not steering you awry. Orr please correct me.

navyCM

iTrader: (3)

im just trying to make sense of which would be a better choice. cam knowledge is my weak spot.

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

I ran a version of the CC306 on my 383 and it was a nasty little cam. I wouldnt recommend it for a TPI build. Even on a 350 its a pretty big cam but can be done. 306 cam likes miniram/HSR

268xfi and large tube TPI and AFR 180/195 heads is a proven streetable effective combo for over 300whp. More than likely will hit 320-330whp with a setup like that with good TPI system. Heck i've seen 318whp from a hotcam/mild ported L98 corvette heads/SLP siamesed TPI. AFR180's with the 268 XFI should easily match that with good TPI.

HSR/miniram will make abit more power than that well tuned.

That helps show the aggressiveness of the cam lobe which doesnt always mean more power. For modern heads with good flowing ports a quick acting valve from an aggressive lobe will tend to show more midrange power than lazy cam lobes. LT1 custom grinds compare their cams to the typical hotcam/CC305/CC306 cams that are tried and true. They will state something like similar to 306 cam but makes more torque/power from 2500-4000 rpm or something to that effect. Lift the valve quicker and higher in a shorter amount of time you can let more air flow in during the intake stroke of the piston/rod/crank so naturally you should beable to make more power

navyCM

iTrader: (3)

this is the set up i plan on building for my 350 TPI.

AFR 180cc heads
TPIS big mouth intake
AS&M runners
Hooker 2055s, Jet hot coated
Hooker CAT back
magnaflow hi flo cat
30# injs
and a tune

so the XFI will be the cam to choose for this build? i want to do it right the first time. i dont want to get a cam in there and then in 1000 miles decide i dont like what its doing.

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

What exactly are your goals for this motor? any specific times you want to run or power numbers you intend to make?

268XFI cam will make between 320-340 whp easily depending on if you port that manifold out abit to better match flow of those heads.

If you wanted more power, you could try a 220's duration cam but i'd first change to the 195 heads and either superram or siamesed SLP's or HSR/miniram for abit more rev range to make more power still. I think its possible to make close to 350whp with a long runner TPI setup with a port job on the base, but most builds seem to fall in the 320-340whp range which is full bolt on LS1 range and a mid 12 second car

Also open up those collectors on the 2055's. The opening is 1.9" in diameter and you can open it up to 2.25 and still seal well. that will make a decent amount of power right there.

BOSS 357

iTrader: (1)

Hey Navy, I remember you from the ASM group purchase. Glad you finally got them!

You & I have pretty much the same build going on here except for my .040 overbore and my Edelbrock shorty headers (2.5" collector)/true duals. I think we need a Dyno Challenge Faceoff when we're done!

I've researched this exhaustively and believe that with our TPIs, the 268 is the way to go here (I also looked at the 260 but gave that up when I found out I'd leave so much power on the table)

Say, how are you going to tune yours? I hope to get dyno-tuned on a Mustang. I could go mail-order but would REALLY rather not.

navyCM

iTrader: (3)

my goals are what you said, 350whp. if i can get there great if i fall short to 320-340whp id be happy. changing to a superram or SLP runners wont happen, since i have the AS&M runners already, to long of a story to explain, was just a PITA.

i was planning on checking to get the base matched to the runners and heads. trying to decide on what base, edelbrock, accel, or tpis. i believe there all the same, price will determine it.

how do i open the collectors up? w/ a die grinder?


yea it sucked hope it was worth the wait. id be in for a dyno challenge, you'd have to wait till like sept. since im deployed right now.

not sure on the tune yet. there is a dyno shop i was going to go to and see what they charge. if i go mail order i was going to us brian harris at tbichips.com seen he does good work. thats the last thing though, will cross that bridge when i come to it.

greggpenn

After talking to AFR tech myself and having bought a set of their heads recently, here's a couple of pts they relayed to me. Call B.S. if you like or confirm. This is mostly an FYI for consideration.

AFR recommends their upgraded spring for ANY XFI cam. Even though I said I wouldn't run the (production short blocked) motor over 6k rpms, they assured me that the XFI profiles (even the 260XFI) are aggressive enough that it "requires upgraded springs". So, I bought them. They added that the cost of losing valve control was much higher than the upgrade.

Tony also would not quote 180cc head flow over .500" lift. He referred me to their phone techs, so I called them. I pointed out that the Eliminator announcement article on their website shows a big number for .600" lift. When I asked why they didn't publish .550" and .600" lift numbers on the 180cc specs page, the reply was this: They said the CNC program and runner profile was changed since the product launch. By doing this, they increased the amount of lower lift flow in exchange for a lower stall point. Because the 195's continue to flow higher (and in my mind better match the XFI profiles), that's the head I chose. Also, my car has a 58cc chamber. When milled from 65cc to 56cc, I presumed that 195 flow would end up closer to 180 flow #s but still have a higher stall point.

Finally, since the OP was concerned about low-end power -- and doesn't intend to drive at higher rpms much, I see the benefit of looking at smaller cams. However, for a long-runner intake, more duration on the intake lobe is helpful to "capture" reversion waves. I've seen several people use more intake than exhaust duration on performance builds where a long-runner intake was installed. To maintain low-rpm torque and get a bit of extra HP, seriously consider a 218/218XFI cam. For no extra charge CC will do this for you. (Use the intake lobe of the 268XFI cam + the exhaust lobe of the 260XFI cam. More TQ will be available at lower rpms because less compression will be bled off using less total duration.) With the AFR heads and a good header/exhaust combo, AFR frequently talks about the benefits of a single-pattern cam. Their exhaust flows like crazy and there is benefit of gaining the extra TQ -- especially for off-throttle response and low-rpm power.

Edit1: Between the most aggressive cam (ie. XFI profile) and the "best" head (AFR), I'm less convinced that the difference in HP/TQ is worth valve-control/longevity issues. There are cams that deliver .520"ish lift that don't require the spring upgrade. To me, that could mean better longevity. With lower spring pressure, some of the power you MAY drop (esp under 5k rpms) could easily recovered because lower spring pressure takes less "parasitic" hp. So, a 218 single-pattern cam in the .500"-520" lift is worth looking at -- as a match to the 180s.

Edit2: HA! I didn't realize I've never posted over here at 3rd gen. Justin knows me from the CF where I've been around for years. (Not necessarily saying anything meaningful mind you! LOL)

gp

navyCM

iTrader: (3)

i contacted AFR and they told me that the 180cc heads can handle the lift of a hydraulic roller cam. thay said to upgrade springs for any flat tappet cam. now when i asked for info on it i DID NOT mention using the XFI cam. they said that the .600 lift was correct. heres my email to them:

So based on the mods that I plan on using these 180cc heads would give me my best bang for the buck and get me into the 300-350 BWHP range? Also what is the lift that these heads can handle? I plan on doing a cam swap that I am unsure of right now and want to make sure that the heads I buy will handle my cam selection. The cam will be a streetable cam somewhere in the area of .500 lift.

heres their reply:

Hey Kenneth,

That is correct, and honestly, these heads have much more potential in them then you will be utilizing. Our standard springs are designed for a hydraulic roller cam up to .600" lift. For your flat tappet, just request an 8020 spring when you order for the .550" flat tappet version at no additional cost. Please feel free to contact me again by phone or by e-mail with any further questions.

BOSS 357

iTrader: (1)

Good post greggpenn and thank you for the input. The 218 cam you're talking about, is that a custom grind? My quest has always been about TQ and less so about HP. That said, I don't want to leave any on the table if I can help it.

I have to agree with navy's post, and I'm not calling gregg's post false either. I also called AFR on a number of occasions to get and verify information specifically on the 180 head. I did not mention the XFI268 cam as I had not yet decided. The tech (who's name I cannot remember) verified the .600 lift for a hydr roller cam, the valve cover bolt pattern, the intake manifold bolt pattern, which rocker arm to use (they recommended anything aluminum EXCEPT the Pro Mags, which I will use anyway) and on and on. I believe thru these conversations that my choice of the 180s and the 268 cam will work fine.

I don't understand how lift in the .570 range would cause valve control loss as it is well under the stated .600 max lift of the spring. Maybe someone could explain that to me.

Lastly, I have also read a number of posts (not just mine, and not just Orr's experience) who run this combo or the 195/268 combo and have good results. I must admit I did not see which spring they ran. I'm not going to absolutely rule out anything gregg posted above, but for my build, I'm probably going to stick with this.

navyCM

iTrader: (3)

im not calling his post false either. i didnt get any info like that from the emails i got from Jason Dow at AFR. i have emailed him again asking about the 268XFI. ill post up his reply when i get it.

i didnt see how valve control lose would happen either w/ the advertised lift and the cam lift we will be using.

BOSS 357, so are you sticking w/ the springs that come w/ the 180 heads? Could you post up some links to the threads you read? i could get good info from them im sure since our builds are almost identical.

BOSS 357

iTrader: (1)

I did have a bunch of them saved, but when I upgraded Firefox, I lost them. Most all of the info I got was simply using the search term "AFR". I know I spent a good few weeks reading up on these heads and the procedures to install them.

Please do post that reply from the AFR guy when you get a response.

I will most likely begin my teardown around June or July, and I'm going to take a ton of pictures. Hopefully I'll be more help to you in the near future. I will be using the .600/1.290 OD valve springs that come with the heads. I'm going to upgrade the rockers studs to the taller ones for my Pro Mag RRs and I'm going to get new perimeter bolt valve covers so the centerbolt clearancing issue witht he big Pro Mags isn't an issue. (interesting note, AFR has these KILLER tall valve covers, polished with their logo on them for $160.00 or so) I may be open to upgrading the springs if they really don't work with my .570/.566 lift camshaft.

navyCM

iTrader: (3)

i had another post going on this rebuild and i mentioned there that i may change to 1.6 rr. it was posted that it would be unecessary. so you may want to rethink the rr swap. i did ask why and havent gotten a response yet. ill let you know when i here a reply.

greggpenn

Consider calling AFR tech again -- to be sure. Specify the use of an XFI cam and see what they say. Max lift isn't the only thing AFR recommends to look at. Ramp rates are worth considering too. On the XFI cams, you'll find about the most aggressive ramps for an off-the-shelf cam (in their duration). That means the springs will be thrown open/closed faster than milder cams. That's where the issue of valve control comes in. When talking to me about extending longevity of the heads, they said the XE cams could use stronger springs but weren't necessary for sub-6k motors. They said XFI cams warrant upgraded springs. (Tony Mamo confirmed this via email by saying "Regarding the springs, go with the upgrade. Its NOT an option with a fast ramp design cam....it's a necessity".) L.Elliot also mentioned potential issues with valve control using XFI cams. W/O the upgraded springs, AFR estimated 20k-30k miles before head service might be required. I'm looking for 2-3 times that longevity!

FYI: 218 is the .050" duration for the 268XFI cam. Again, I'm talking about using the intake lobe of the 268XFI and exhaust lobe of the 260XFI cam. (Not sure how to make that more clear! It will be a custom cam by asking for these two lobes together, but not a custom grind. You'll be asking for a combo of EXISTING lobes! And, this will provide a bit more TQ than the straight 268XFI cam.)

navyCM

iTrader: (3)

i did email them again mentioning the XFI268 cam. will post when i get a reply.

so call comp and ask them to grind a cam w/ the intake lobes of a 268XFI and the exhaust lobes of a 260XFI? what kind of cost will that be? how will this better than just a straight 268XFI, how much more TQ we talking about?

i hate to sound stupid but my cam knowledge is no where as good as you, so i need an education here.

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

AFR standard 8017 springs are good to .600 lift and possibly more. i tried to measure the coil bind and i found that it seems to come up abit more than advertised. But its good to give you more clearance so use advertised figures. The upgraded 8019 springs are the same way, they have a good bit of lift potential. Coil bind is abit conservative on AFR's ratings.

What i did notice that kinda confirms this is my 195's with 8017 springs came at an installed height less than advertised. I think they are advertised at 1.800" and mine were abit shorter than that but still good to .600" So you have enough safe lift margin to handle a .570" XFI grind.
I cant find the exact specs since AFR changed the website now. But i know they shim the springs up alittle to get close to installed height.

I ordered the 8019 springs for 100 bucks upgrade cost. I even shimmed them up for more pressure than advertised height. My cam although not super aggressive on the lobes, it will rev high and i have shifted at 6800 with it.

The thing with hydraulic rollers is rpm requires good spring pressure. Just because you run a .550 cam and the springs are good to .600 doesnt mean you'll be ok if your revving over 5800rpm.

Those XFI grinds I would recommend the 8019 spring as well for insurance. For the bigger XFI stuff, like the 280 and 292, you'll want to shim those springs up abit to reach higher pressure to control the lifters/valves so they dont start floating.

The 260/268 cams for TPI setups that wont see over 5800 rpm, i dont consider it necessary. The 8017 spring has 130lbs on the seat advertised, and being a small spring, it doesnt have much valve train weight. LSx style 8mm valves are used on these heads so the weight is reduced meaning you can get away with abit less spring pressure.
It certainly would not hurt to order the 8019 springs for an extra 100 bucks. If you want to i'd do it to be safe. Also keep in mind springs lose pressure over time and heat cycling, so you definately want more pressure than needed to be safe.

Its the bigger cams and more revs that require the stiffer springs.

For those smaller 260-268 XFI's i'd like to see 130lbs on the seat atleast. Infact most hydraulic rollers under 5800 rpm i'd run 130lbs. If you want more pressure you can shim those springs up .015" with a cheap spring shim kit and get closer to 135-136. Abit more insurance. Its easier to just get the 8019 springs.

Keep in mind with a miniram/HSR that 268 cam will rev over 6000 and still make some power. Then i'd use the 8019 spring.
The 8019 springs have 150 lbs on the seat and are good to .650 lift. I ran mine at 170lbs and i think i was good to .625 lift then.

150-170lbs is good for just about any other hydraulic roller you'll ever run under 6800 rpm

BOSS 357

iTrader: (1)

The 268/260 cam idea sounds iin-treeeging. I've wondered why the intake and exhaust durations were different. If the durations are the same, how does that help TQ? And why are the exhaust durations on both cams longer than the intake?

Navy, the 268 cam's lift is rated on the cam card using 1.6 RRs. I'll wait to see what your tech says about the cam and flow before I change my mind on the 1.6s. If nothing else, I'm still changing over to full rollers no matter the ratio.

Edit: I sent AFR an email asking for clarification on the cam, springs, and flow rates beyond .500 lift. I'll post the results. I'm glad this point was brought up.

greggpenn

Historically, exhaust lobe duration has been longer than intake duration because there's been more restriction on the exhaust side cylinder heads. When you look at exhaust/motor design the ratio of intake to exhaust flow is taken into consideration. And, in many cases, having more duration on the exhaust side allows for better scavaging (evacuation of old fumes). With the old fumes gone, a cleaner, more potent charge follows -- achieving better power. Older heads needed more split (exhaust duration) to acheive that. A few of the newer, best cylinder heads (like AFR) don't need much (if any) split.

The trade-off of using more split is when you open the exhaust valve sooner, the cylinder pressure that's driving the car forward begins to release. That's torque being released.

Cam design (lift, split, duration, and LSA) is a complicated issue which has several variables. One is WHERE you want the power (rpms). Typically, when you want lower rpm power, smaller duration cams get you that by keeping the valves closed longer. More push to the bang.

CCams doesn't charge extra for a custom cam -- if it's picked from existing lobes.

BTW: Lowering LSA can also increase torque for the same reason. If the exhaust valve is opened 4 degrees later, you have 2-degrees less LSA. An XFI cam would fall from 113LSA to 111LSA. If you combined the use of a smaller exhaust lobe and less LSA, you gain even more low-mid power (TQ). When you're dealing with a few degrees here/there, the change in power is comparable (i.e., a few HP/TQ). You saw that when the estimated high-end gains from a 268 vs 260XFI cam were posted.

For the OP, you might want to consider a 218/218 cam with 111LSA. If you install it with the 4-degrees advance (that's already built into XFI cams), that also biases power to the lower rpms. Retarding a cam helps with high power generation. If you get a chance, do a search on "Camshaft Got Lobes". These 3 words should lead you to a magazine article about cam basics. They are also explained on Comp Cam's website.

And, of course, another way to raise low-rpm performance (torque) is to raise compression. A thinner head gasket might be an option. (Not familiar with if/how Camaro specs differ in this area -- from my 89 vette.) Or you can have the heads milled to a smaller chamber.

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

Most custom grinds now a days feature 2-4 degrees more exhaust duration than intake. Its gonna depend on your exhaust system too. IF your running shorties into a single 3" pipe, you better have a good muffler else there may be some restriction and having abit extra exhaust duration will help cylinder scavenging.

you can run a custom XFI setup but if you do choose their lobes, it wont kill you to stick with the shelf grind. 218/224 is a nice compromise for a n/a motor with decent heads like AFR's

As far as head flow over .500. I wouldnt worry about .570 lift being too much. Heads may not show flow gains over that .500 but the test is done at 28" water pressure... A motor is dynamic and my guess is its gonna be alot more than that, so more lift may actually make power even if the flow numbers dont show it

navyCM

iTrader: (3)

aren't the RR that come on the heads 1.5s?

id like to go the route of the custom lobe grind, but then id have to pay full price for m comp when i can get the shelf XFI for like $30 bucks cheaper.

BOSS 357

iTrader: (1)

Navy, The heads don't come with rocker arms, those you get to buy seperately. As well as pushrods & lifters.

Orr, my exhaust is the Edelbrock TFS shorty headers (1 5/8 primaries, 2.5 collector, smog tubes), 2.5" dual pipes (no y-pipe) out to two 2.5" hi-flow Magnaflow cats out to 2 more 2.5" pipes through two 2.5" chambered exhaust tubes that dump before the axle. No muffler, yes it's loud, no I haven't gotten pulled! The intake runs from descreened MAF thru a smooth intake tract to 52mm TB to a totally port matched intake from TB to AS&M runners to manifold. Would that make the custom cam any more or less more appropriate?

gregg- I will getting the block zero decked; the calculated goal is 10.5-ish static compression ratio, and I will hit .040 quench. Would a 111 LSA have a palpable effect on idle? (as opposed to the 113 I run now and the 113 on the XFI268 off the shelf)

navyCM

iTrader: (3)

yea i ment to write "go" on the heads 1.5, meaning that what there recommended for. i was looking at using these 1.6s but still havent got clarification as to why they would be unnecessary.

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eB...%3AIT&viewitem=

was looking at these for lifters:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/Hydra...1%7C240%3A1318

BOSS 357

iTrader: (1)

I hate not knowing! So I called AFR to get yet more clarification for our builds. I talked to Jerami Patrick today, he was most helpful and answered all my questions as I reiterated his answers back to him.

The questions I wanted to talk about was head flow, the equal duration cam, and the upgrades to everything.

*for MY ported TPI setup and the XFI 268 cam, he said the 195s would work a bit better for me. Why? The flow for those heads exceeds the 180s. The 180s flow falls off after .500 lift, the 195s flow works right on up to .600. The 268 will lift up to .570. He said the 180 head is better utilized for lower RPM, lower lift camshafts under .500 He also said the 180s would work fine, but the 195s will get the most out of the cam I want to use. I asked about port velocity, and he said it may drop some, it all depends on what you want the engine to do. I told him about my TQ monster and he said the 195 would still get the edge due to the increased lift vs. velocity loss.

*the 8017 (non-upgrade) springs he said would work with the XFI 268 cam just fine; I specifically mentioned the XFI and the quick ramp rates; If I were to start running into 6000 RPMs and over .600 lift, he then would recommend the upgraded springs. I asked twice, and got the same answer twice.

*just to be sure, the 195 are drilled for both center bolt and perimeter bolt valve covers, it's the intake manifold bolt pattern that changes (my Superram manny is drilled for both)

*I asked about the CC Pro Mags, he still advised against them solely due to how heavy they are. He recommended Crane Gold or Harland Sharp (aluminum). I want steel dammit! I'm still going with the Pro Mags.

*I asked about the equal duration cam. He said the off the shelf version would be ok, and they dynoed well. I may want to tweek the duration, but stay with the dual pattern style (like Orr said)

SO, the long and short of this whole thing. 195s, 8017 springs, upgraded 5/8 studs (longer, to accomodate the Pro Mags), XFI 268 cam and the world will beat a path to my door. Does that help any, Navy?

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

Yep, i agree. Over 6K is where you should worry


AFR doesnt like them for some reason but i run them no problem up to 6800 rpm. They are heavy but that weight is concentrated over the rocker stud. The actual mass thats sitting over the valve is not all that much, so its marginally different compared to aluminum. You'll have no problems with pro mags

195's are a great head and work well with all motors 350 and up. With your compression, i'd like to see 195's with that 268 cam and you can go with the 111lsa. It will make good torque all around and still idle friendly. It will help make abit more power up top too but you may not see it on a TPI setup. HSR/miniram may. Again you cant go wrong with the 180's but 195's are really close and offer much better flow up top. All good stuff

navyCM

iTrader: (3)

hell yea!!!! helps out alot. i was planning on calling them today after work. there's a huge time differance for me being in the desert thats why i been relying on email. thanks for taking the time to call and find out. i like the prospect of using the 195s. i had considered then but most here used the 180s w/ great success.

it was really all about what cam to use. getting a good cam head combo is REAL important. i think we finally got that situation nailed down. where you geting your heads from, straight from AFR? which p/n head you using, 1041? im shopping for the lowest price.

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

Some magazine put 180's on a 406 and made crazy power and even more torque. Those heads arent bad at all but the 195's seem to be the bread and butter head to fit most all combinations

BOSS 357

iTrader: (1)

It seems my last post echoed most of what Orr had said all along. I never doubted you, just wanted to double check!

Navy, I'm getting my AFR 1034s (195 Street, 65cc, straight plug) from ADPerformance.com If their website is correct, their price is 1439.00 (base) and they can ship them out within a week. If not them, then either AFR directly or Summit (if they can substitute the parts I want). The cam will come from Summit.

I have a spreadsheet a full page long for this project. I'll be swapping in a Tremec TKO-600 at the same time the engine is on the stand. I look to start late June/early July and hope to be done by late winter/early spring. Then I'll be off to the dyno and becoming my chip burner's best friend for about a month.

By the way too, while you're out serving our country and keeping ME safe, making a phone call that helps you out is the least I could do. Thank you for your service.

navyCM

iTrader: (3)

why the 1034s? the rep i spoke w/ recommended 0919s. since im switching to the 195s now im going to use the 1041s. my other issue is i hope to have and original accel base which has the bolt holes drilled for both style heads. will have to adjust #s if things workout differant.

i checked that site. nice prices.

you going w/ the off the shelf version of the XFI?

thank you for your kind words thier appreciated. i wish more american citizens felt that way.

BOSS 357

iTrader: (1)

The difference between the 1041 and 1034 is simply that middle bolt hole on the manifold, everything else seems to be the same. (195, 65, straight plug)

I did decide to off-the-shelf the XFI cam. I might have gone custom if there was this overwhelming flood of HP, TQ, or reasoning to do so. What I could gain seems kind of minimal at this point.

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

I got mine from there and they had free shipping with only like a 10-15 dollar handling charge. Not bad at all. I think i had them in a week or maybe abit longer, i cant remember

greggpenn

I called Jerami again too. I wasn't happy with the conflicting recommendations I've seen between others and myself.

I asked why I was recommended to upgrade to the 8019 springs (@ 155#) vs the 8017s. His answer was that I'd stated an application where the motor could be run up to 6k rpms. According to Jerami, Boss asked about lower rpms and that's the difference. Thing is, my email to Tony clearly asked about an application that would rarely be driven above 5k rpms. Even in with a 5k application, Tony recommended the stiffer springs.

So, it's either Tony (& his team) responded more conservatively to my repeated questions/concerns on longevity -- OR -- Tony realized that my (proposed) use of an HSR might take me up to 6k rpms more often than I would admit. LOL!!!! BUSTED!!!

I guess it's a good thing I've finally decided to use the HSR in my basement (vs a heavily modified SLP intake that I also have). I just can't figure out whether I'm being more conservative having purchased the upgrade -- or being more wild by going for the HSR!

Bottom line is that I'm still not sure where the line should be drawn for the upgrade or not. Justin's proposal of 5700-5800 rpms at the break-pt might just be the right one.

gp

navyCM

iTrader: (3)

and to think i thought we had this nailed down! 5k rpm really isnt that high. i think you'll see 5k rpm more than you think. i mean just gunning it from a stop light to get off in front of that nicer kid will crack the 5k window.

im going to probably elect getting the upgraded springs just as insurance. plus the car will see occasional run at the local drag strip.

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

i dont see the point in building the motor if your not gonna push the peak hp rpm barrier Nothing wrong with testing the power every now and then

BOSS 357

iTrader: (1)

If it makes everyone feel better, I'll hit 6k once and take a picture of my tach!

My theory is it's all personal preference, and my personal driving style just doesn't warrant me knocking down 6k every time I take it out. I don't really feel the need to beet the snot out of it. I do drag the stop light once in a while, but for whatever reason, I have this mental block that makes me shift at 5k. I'm on some serious meds for it and I hope the prognosis is better for me in the future.

All kidding aside, I'm going to stick with the standard springs. I did specifically ask about my 5k fetish because that is where I'll spend my time. I think for gregg's purpose and his HSR, I'd upgrade. If Navy would be running my setup and running 6k, I'd upgrade. If you'll note, on their website it specifically states that if you run a hydraulic cam and hit RPMs above 5800, you'd need to upgrade to some Hydra-thing (which I assume includes springs).

My application is LTR in a lower RPM range. My driving style is somewhat conservative (but nice to know I have the power if Mr Honda gets frisky). I feel confident in using the standard spring. For ***** and giggles, lets say the standard springs give out in 25,000 miles. For me that would be 20+ years from now as I put just about 1000 or so miles a year on the car. By then I bet I'll be itching for another car project! Just my 2c worth.

355tpipickup

iTrader: (5)

lots of great info in this thread.....im lookin to do a head cam swap in the future and im lookin at this same setup! how long do you think tell you get this new combo up and runnin?

navyCM

iTrader: (3)

mine wont be till some time after Aug. unless i can get my father in law to start it while im gone.

navyCM

iTrader: (3)

i cant say my driving stlye is conservative at all. if the power is there im going to use it. i dont race around all over. other thing is that its going to be mostly a daily driver, so to have the insurance of new springs and good rr's is peace of mind to me.

navyCM

iTrader: (3)

just for ***** i did something. pluged in all the required numbers for the cam and 180cc heads w/ a CR of 9.5(a guess of course), a 350 cu. in. #s, 200' altitude since im pretty much at sea level, 3500 lbs, 18% drive train loss. calculated to: actual HP 427, est. RWHP 350, ET 1/4 12.69, shift RPM 5509, max RPM 8067.

a message popped up aying heads may be large for cam compression numbers.

i KNOW this is not actual, but how far off could this be?

try it:http://www.speedwaybids.com/tech/ezonlinedyno.html

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

I tried it for my 383. HP came out pretty close, 18% loss gave me 480 on motor/395 onthe ground and my last dyno run with engine boiling hot made 392, so it was closer to 400-410 cold. SO those numbers are close

Says shift at 6022 but it peaked at 6300 and i shift at 6500-6600. Says I'd run 12.13 but i went 11.47

BOSS 357

iTrader: (1)

My Data:
Head Flow: 280
Static Compression: 10.3
Bore 4.040
Stroke 3.480
Rod Length: 5.700
VE 93% (???)
Altitude: 200ft
Intake Center: 109
Adv Dur: 268 (cam card does not specify @ .006)
Duration .050: 218
Max Valve Lift: .570
Weight: 3500 lbs

Results:
357cid, shift RPM 5698, ET 11.85 (oh yeah!), Actual HP 527, WHP 430

It said my heads were too large for my cam compression too..I'm not starting up the whole debate all over again. Id love for any of it to be true. It's an online calculator, I'll believe it after my car rolls off the dyno after tuning.

navyCM

iTrader: (3)

well at least it didnt say the cam was to big for the heads, that would be bad. i tried it for a couple of differant cams that i had in mind to use and the XFI was the only one it said it for. it may just mean that the heads can handle more lift/duration. i dont see anything wrong w/ using a smaller cam for what a set of heads can use.

since the numbers came back in our favor ill still go through w/ the build.