BadAz_Iroc

first, i start by saying this,mi have a 350 block that was built to 450hp, thats on motor, its going in a 1989 camaro. I have a good friend of mine that has a 01 camaro with the LS1, i was always joking with him saying i am going to drag that 01 through the 1/4 , until one day i saw the car run, keep in mind all he did was bolt ons, a few mods, tunning and added street slicks never put a wrench on it. he goes out and runs low 12's, come on now, spent good money and he spent maybe $500, PEOPLE, do i stil have a chance wen i bring my car out. I HATE LS1 CARS.

myTreadZz

if your buddy is crackin low 12s, I would tend to think he spent more than $500. Look at full exhaust for starters... He probably paid at least $1000. That alone would only put him at high 12s, and already he would be at twice what you thought he spent. Now throw that bad boy on a dyno and get it tuned, you're looking at at least another $500. He would be lucky to see mid 12s. I mean maybe he turns his own wrenches and does his own tuning, but nonetheless to get an ls1 to low 12s will cost more than $500.

mouthforcombat

Bummer... I love LS1. I don't currently own one but I plan on ditching my '02 3.8 and getting an LS1 this summer, to compliment my '86 Iroc. LS1 was a very innovative, strong motor. It's hard to build up old 350's to compete with even lightly modded LS1's but it's very possible.

BUT, if you have a 450 HP motor, you should have no trouble beating him as LS1's come stock with just a little over 300 HP.

BadAz_Iroc

This is what i Know, the exhust cam froma co-worker $200 custome tune from a friend of his that open his own shop $250, borrowed street slicks, and minor nick nacks. oh, and its a 6 speed car, see i use to be with these guys when i was in louisiana, i just didnt want a LS1 car. but trust me he didnt spend much money.

TheRealBlkBird

It does'nt take much to make an LS1 run hard. That's a reason to like them, not hate them. Now if they were made by ford and put in mustangs, yeah, Id hate them.

motorheadmike

I think you should stop talking now. You clearly are clueless and out of touch with the automotive World since 1992. There are a few documented instances where 6spd LS1 F-bodies have run 12.9s bone stock.

Last March we bought our well worn LS1 Camaro... took it to the track and ran 13.2 @ 105mph. That was stock with 100k miles.

For any A4 LS1 car it takes no more than a converter to strip off 5 tenths; that is $500. With a used full exhaust you can pull off even more for next to nothing (~$500). $1000 = low-12 second potential in an A4 car.

So yes: with a tune, exhaust, a few bolt-ons and a sticky tire 12 second ETs are easily attainable.

As for this attitude of hating LS1 F-bodies: go knock the sand out of your collective Vaginas. The reality is 1st Gen SBCs are outdated, especially yours rated @ "450" catalogue-horsepower.

BadAz_Iroc

Canada, huh, who ask you. No one like you guys anyway. Back to the subject, i dont hate them in that since, its just an amazing power plant that dont take much to run hard, but don't think i am not going to try him.

Codename 47

iTrader: (4)

Preaching to the choir.

You're on the wrong site though. Everyone here is 15 or 16 and thinks their TPI V8 kicks ***. Hahah.

Although one benefit about the Gen I small block is that it is a easy swap into the thirdgen (no custom stuff, just drop in and go), and they can be found for pretty cheap.

But if I was going to go out and spend 5 grand on a motor, it'd be a cold day in hell that I spend it on 30 year old technology.

1MeanZ

iTrader: (9)

You're an idiot.

TheRealBlkBird

His is no worse then the two listed in your sig.

Travis&camaro

Hey.. Just buy a nitrus kit or super charge your 350 and let him have it... YOu can do any thing with a old 350!!! I like the ls1's but there no fun when you cant afford them.

TheRealBlkBird

Yeah, but so is he.

ibmtech

iTrader: (1)

Go ahead and run him. Everyone should learn to respect each others car. I started with the 305 tpi and worked up from there. Just because your engine isn't a LS1 is no reason to feel bad about your car. I have judged many car shows and have seen many good and many bad. I don't care if you have the fastest LS1, 2nd or 3rd Gen in the world, If your show up and pop the hood and trunk and it looks like SH#T, Then it is what it is. On the other hand if you pop the hood and draw a crowd, You have something to be proud about and who gives a rats *** what anyone else thinks. Remember, no matter how fast your car is, There is always someone out there that is faster.

myTreadZz

Ok jackass, Let me break this down for you...

As you said there are A FEW documented instances of Ls1 motors running 12.9s from the factory, that means it is very rare, but it has happened. They are known as factory freaks, just in case you are unfamiliar with the term.

Second, 100k miles on an ls1 isn't terrible, considering even the abused ones last to 130k or more. 13.2 bone stock for an ls1 is a solid time, better than average, which is about 13.4

Now, a USED coverter is in the neighborhood of $500, so be more specific. And a used full exhaust? I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and say that long tube headers, y pipe, and a catback can be had for $500, but please, don't hesitate to let us all in on where you find such GOOD quality parts for that cheap, since you know everything. So add those with the cost of his $200 tune, and factor in the tires he borrowed. You're looking at $1400-$1500. And those are used parts along with a cheap friggan tune.

So lets go back to my original post. I claimed it takes more than $500 to make an fbody LS1 a low 12 second car.
Check my math, bonehead: Converter($500) + Exhaust($500) + Tune($200) + Tires($200-$300) = $1400 to $1500


That is three times what the buddy of the op spent, check the math pal
My point was only to prove that it costs more than $500 to get an LS1 to low 12s

BadAz_Iroc

Well i never back down from a race, but if he keeps it that way, i think i can get him well see, you know i'l let you guys know.
----------
Oh, the exhaust, was a used borla, only a year old, i just check.

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

i would agree, for a consistant deep low 12 second LS1 auto car, you will spend abit more than 500-1000 bucks in mods on average, unless you do nitrous. or GUT the car. But its possible to do it for pretty darn cheap

FULL weight, you will need drag radials/slicks which can be had for 150 bucks, used.

converter, used probly gonna run near 500 as most LS1 guys run vigilante's and etc, the most expensive converters else get a cheaper one to get the job done

Dont think 3.23 gears are optimal, need atleast 3.42's preferably 3.73's. So thats 100-200 bucks depending on where you get them and what you get..

Without exhaust your probly at the mid 12's right now. So thats pretty darn good

Add 300 buck headers and cut out, and your deep 12's. Thats pretty good. All for pretty cheap too, about a 1000 bucks if you do the work yourself and get the parts cheap. new parts its gonna be pricey

But considering i had full bolt ons from suspension to motor bolt ons on my L98 and only got 12.9's for about 4000 bucks in mods, possible more i could have had a LS1


If you can bang a SS 6spd car good and dont break the rear, add slicks and your doing mid 12's as is. Its been done before by a few ppl, all for 150 bucks!!



BACK TO TOPIC, i'm gonna say you should wax a full bolt on LS1 car provided your car is setup right to use all that power. you should have him in power and less weight, so you SHOULD win

myTreadZz

Good luck, get back with the results

motorheadmike

1) BadAz_Iroc is of a simple demographic.
2) myTreadZz has more dollars than sense. (Who always buys new? )
3) TheRealBlkBird, I am not running around making horsepower claims... and especially not a nice round part-by-part catalogue fabrication of my imagination.

I didn't start this flame war, and considering I own both an example the car in question and the one the membership here nutswings from; I have it summed up pretty well, don't you think?

kowboy59

iTrader: (8)

If only you knew. I have a good buddy who has a 01 trans am NON ws6 or anything special. HE has ls6 intake headers pulleys and cutout on some cheap nitto 55r and a stall. All mods at most was 1200. HE can get a 12.0 on motor. He had it 12.3 at 108 with his transmission not hitting the 2nd to third shift.


when it had no stall and headers it ran a 12.7. SO 400 bux and it runs 12.7??? idk but i bet an 02 ls1 with the ram air could beat that time even more with the same mods.

now ls1 blocks are aluminum. If they overheat too many times the blocks will expand, so they in theory will not lat as long as ours if treated wrong(overheated)

leek157

Im 18 and think my tpi kicks ***, but i do like ls1 they are fast as hell from the few ive drivin and i like f-bodys third gens happen to be my favorite and i enjoy working on my outdated technology and i cant afford an ls1 f-body but i would still keep my iroc, but yeah with out much work you can get an ls1 going faster than hell, http://youtube.com/watch?v=7Sn6SL6EajE still one of my favorite videos ls1's shuttin up gay *** imports all day long

igotta355z28

iTrader: (1)

my only problem with ls1 camaros is that around here most are owned by some jack *** kids that dont know the difference between a push rod and connecting rod, they just had the cash to buy the fast car and a cpl bolt ons...

TeePEye87

No reason to hate it myself, quite sure must be nice to have one already and be able to do little and gain a lot. But the Gen1's are hard to beat, they're battle proven warriors for the price of ponies. Doing a swap makes no sense at the cost of what can be done with a Gen1 and still maintain mileage, streetability, part costs. The Gen1 engines is a bit more raw and I enjoy the sounds and looks of them.

But if I started with an LS1 car, I'm sure it'd make a nice dd. No reason to hate on either one, all about what you enjoy, what you want to do and at what cost.

leek157

exactly

Abubaca

iTrader: (3)

Lot of junk talking from people with LOW post counts. This is a community guys. Let's all relax a little. And it's not an American board, it's worldwide. Maybe Canadians don't like us.

igotta355z28

iTrader: (1)

what does your post counts have to do with anything?

Codename 47

iTrader: (4)

Absolutely nothing because there are a lot of people on this site that have a ton of posts from the boards like "theoretical street racing" and "appearance and detailing". Those guys then go into the real tech forms and give incorrect information.

Not to discredit what Abubaca was saying. There are many tried and true long time members that high posts counts and are very knowledgeable and helpful to the online community here.

InfernalVortex

iTrader: (4)

Remember guys, an LS1 car costs a whole lot more than a thirdgen. They just pay more upfront.

myTreadZz

You're making it sound like I said an LS1 isn't an impressive motor. If I came across that way then my mistake. But $500 won't put an LS1 into the low 12s. That was my main point. Only way I can see that happening is investing in a used nitrous system, and pushing a pretty sizeable shot through the motor. Then you are asking for trouble...

and I don't think ram air would drop an ET more than .2, so thats still mid 12s at best for your 12.7 02 LS1

kowboy59

iTrader: (8)

My thought was this. the guys is running a stockish ls1. Underdrive pullys 100 bux. ls6 intake ~300 cutout 25 bux. and he hits 12.7 So ya. My buddy with a 02ls6 stock motor and exhaust does 12.5 untuned.

Im just saying that most people do not realize how well ls1's react to mods.

And spending 500 bux on mods with any car can get you a lot if you know where to go and how to use it.

Btw he puts a 150 shot on it whenever he feels like it.

myTreadZz

fair points kowboy, not gonna argue with you

kowboy59

iTrader: (8)

No i mean i agree with what you say, if it was like 2001 where parts were only new, but where i live at Central florida, stuff is so easy to find. its not even funny.

Codename 47

iTrader: (4)

The LSx community is growing at an exponential rate. People don't often realize that used parts are become "more" common now. It's just people are so SPOILED with the common gen 1 small block parts.

My buddy has a Nissan 300zx and it takes him a while to find stuff, because it's not like a gen 1 chevy, where everyone and their grandmother owns one.

ibmtech

iTrader: (1)

No to be ignorant, Most F-Body owner don't want a 300ZX!!! I would rather push my chevy then drive rice!!

ryan91rs

iTrader: (1)

You missed the point totally. I think LSX is expensive and a major pain to put in the third gen but like others have said it responds to mods very well. You get to a point where if you took the old TPI and made it get the same HP as a LSX w/ mods then the LSX would actually not be that much more expensive. And lets be honest, it's more advanced.

ibmtech

iTrader: (1)

I aggree 100%.. I was just busting your chops. Just because I wouldn't own an import doesn't mean that I don't respect them. Between Toyota and Nissan you have a very powerful powerful plant for small cid. Most foreign bodies will fall off long before the engine dies. For a while now, It seemed like everyone in upstate NY owned a Maroon IROC-Z. Now over the years, all the teen~e~boppers have done the demolition derby job and destroyed the majority of them. I have noticed that mine is now longer on the blue book, but moved to the gold book and is slowly increasing in price every year. Not even close what I paid new, or as much as a older vette. But, someday, I can dream. Some day even the LS motor parts will be increasingly cheaper to get ahold of. Since I crated my original motor many years ago and put in storage. I have spent alot to get my motor faster than a stock LS motor. If an LS owner put the same components on their engine, I would feel like a Ford (Focus or Fungus) on the Autobahn in Germany. I know what you mean.

camshaftxe

Ls1 is powerful, versatile, has an abundance of aftermarket parts, and imho with every single thing like elevation, engine temp, mods, tune, even tire pressure for around a grand its not hard to reach mid or even low twelves. I think alot of seniors on this board take some things for granted though, like ok a good converter may be 500$, and possably a little less but most of you have turned some wrenches and done some serious work, probably even have somewhat of your own shop and tools, but the majority of guys out there do not know, or just cant for lack of experience or tools do a converter swap for 500$. You have to take into consideration that kind of mod usually costs people a bit more in labor. Exhausts not all the time but most of the time require some welding, not everyone has that equipment and/or doesnt know how to operate one. I dont even have a tpi, but a did win against a 10sec rustang, and a 12sec ta, not because I have 500hp, but because I had a much better reaction, 450hp should be ample power for strong competition. O yea one more thing, if it wasnt for that old first gen technology, this new technology wouldnt exist as chevy and more specific camaro enthusiasts lets not forget where we come from.

Codename 47

iTrader: (4)

The comment about the 300zx was supposed to shed light on how spoiled we are. Parts are so abundant for the gen 1 small block it's not even funny. People who are into other types of cars aren't as lucky; good used parts at cheap prices don't show up every second like they do for our cars.

I think the LSx is the same way. You can do it cheaply, you just have to be more patient to find the used good deals (Similar to certain imports).

PS: some imports are cool. A 300zx IS a pretty sweet car. RWD, twin turbo. It's a performance machine.

What I'm NOT into is the lame *** FWD grocery-getters. Believe it or not, some imports are good performing machines. But like always, nothing compares to the sound of a v8. Not even a v10 (Viper).

camshaftxe

Yes, I too respect SOME imports. I used to have a friend that had a 2 door 1991 acura gs or somthing, rated at a 16.6 quarter I wached him pull a 15.5 with a 30$ intake and a free exhaust. Pretty respectable to me. BUT I will push a tbi 305 before I ever payed for an import. Sad thing is its not really the car I hate its those dam import driving 16 and 17 year olds that talk too much, too loud and annoying.

ibmtech

iTrader: (1)

What technology from 1st Gen are you saying gave us our current technolohy today? I have a 69 and it is nothing like a LS series today

ezysk

I say race him, win or lose, just have fun with it.

As for the whole which is better LS1 versus older 350s, I ponder this.
If I was starting from scratch with a 3rd Gen Roller, that already had the sub frame connectors, the beefed up rear end, and drive shaft.
Then I wonder, which would be the most cost effective way to get me to low 12s high 11s. Lets even assume the Transmission is not a factor for the sake of argument.

Lets also assume we have no magic friends that will sell us stuff dirt-cheap or give us free stuff. Let us say we actually have to buy the stuff from real people for real prices with our own money.

Which do you think would be the cheaper route to get those ¼ mile times I mentioned above.
The LS1 or something else?

While I do believe the LSx series to contain more advanced technology than previous generations of engines, I still think there is a cost factor involved and really, for those of us that have to work hard for our money, “bang for the buck” is important.

I am not entirely convinced LS1 would be the cheaper route.
I know you might be able to get good deal for an LS1, but with all the other options available out there, I think it should be easier to get a better deal on something else.

Also, lets have no one trick ponies either, say I want a car that can consistently run those times.

What do all of you think? Do you think the LS1 is the king of the Bang for the Buck game?

BadAz_Iroc

I never ment for people to rag on Ls1, it started with a gruge mactch between me and a friend that has a Ls1, me saying i hate LS1 cars. But really is a more of a love hate for the Ls1 motor, i just wanted to know did i stand a chance of winning before he put in that magic stick 4 cam. I'll keep you guys posted.

BadAz_Iroc

You got that right EZ and i know i work hard for mines well... not that hard i am at work now, and you see what i am doing, anyway, i am oldschool, a 350 i know like the back of my hand, i can drop one out and back in in a weekend, but a LS1 shhhhhhh, you need a engine cradle, full car lift, and high tech computer. For me its easier and cheaper to have the old style cauas i wont need a speed shop, well.......maybe for tunning.

ljnowell

There are lots of things that tie the two together. You should read some of smokey yunicks books. He did a lot of R&D for GM back in the day. I think one thing that sticks out about the LS1 is the pushrod design. Almost everyone has went to OHC. GM has the design though. They perfected a tried and true workhorse in the gen1 engine. Then slowly refined it until they got to the LS engines. Head design is another thing that ties them to the gen1. It took lots of trial and error to get to the ls series engines. Those designs are modified and refined. Really, the best gen 1 heads were made at the end of the gen 1 lineup. Even though they dont look the same, they are related.

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

yeah the only thing they realy share in common is the pushrod design and they use the same lifters. Everything else is different. different intake port shapes, different exhaust port pattern, different everything

Zepher

iTrader: (1)

http://youtube.com/watch?v=V7yhFo33ilQ

LS1 conversion with, MMS Heads, MMS Cam, Mahle Forged Pistons and Rods (11.2.:1), LS6 intake, longtubes, 4l60E, Yank 4000 stall.
Total cost, $3800 and gets 25+mpg.
The video above was the very first pass of the car, and it had some issue with it so it wasn't running right. Took it to the track 2 more times but couldn't run, no DS loop at one track, fixed that, and then another track said the one of the tires was wobbling during the burnout and didn't let us run.
So we don't have a really good time for the car yet.

BadAz_Iroc

Oh, my buddy cars is on youtube, he is racing a s10 with a stroker, go to youtube and type in SS vs. S10 then look for Trai's SS thats him, watch the video and tell if i have a chance.

Zepher

iTrader: (1)

looks kinda slow

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

Makes me wonder about my build. considering the money i have in my 383 build i could have had a LS2/T56. BUT my 383 will be built to handle 700+hp althought it may only make 400whp on motor I believe from the specs. So thats a bonus to being all forged and i do plan on nitrous so its good to know i have some room to play with. Its all in what you want i guess, but i probly would have been happy with a cammed LS2 and maybe just a small 100-150 shot on top of that. Probly make the same if not more power as my 383 will, all for similar price and may get better mileage and more options on tuning with the lsx pcm's.

Zepher

iTrader: (1)

Our LS1 will easily take a 250shot, taking total power to approx 680rwhp.
Stock LS1's can spray 150shot all day long, only things that go are the tranny's and rear ends.

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

thats what i hear. If you upgrade the rod bolts, it will handle 200 shots and cam all day long. I've seen the 550-600whp sprayed cammed LS1's living for quite some time. I should have just went that way. I plan to run 6500rpms in my car and hit near 600whp as well on the bottle with my 383. Atleast i know its capable of handling more. Safety/insurance is important