89IROCZZ4

I want to know how high in terms of rpm's it will make power up to if fully ported. Also, what if it is fully ported and had ltr's?

woohoo! 400 posts!

Dragroc

What about the Superram fully ported?

------------------
1989 Camaro IROC-Z
TPI ZZ4
Superram intake
Crane AFPR
Hooker Competition Headers
March Power and Amp pulleys
Moser 9" rearend with 3.70 gears and Detroit Locker differential
Spohn LCA's and Swaybar adapters

89IROCZZ4

I had thought about that...but it's just too dang expensive!

Dragroc

I know, dang $750 just for the upper intake and runners...then you have to buy the $360 throttle body...but I am fixing to do it. I had thought about a carb, but I like the injection even if the power is less. That's where the charger comes in...

------------------
1989 Camaro IROC-Z
TPI ZZ4
Superram intake
Crane AFPR
Hooker Competition Headers
March Power and Amp pulleys
Moser 9" rearend with 3.70 gears and Detroit Locker differential
Spohn LCA's and Swaybar adapters

Todd85

In my opinion, with a ported stock TPI set-up with appropriate cam you will make your peak HP at right around 4500-4600 rpm, with a normal shift point of right around 5000 rpm.

If you instead opted for an Accel intake manifold and Accel large tube runners your HP peak would land right around 4700-4900 rpm.

A switch to a Superram and a slightly more aggressive cam is going to push your HP peak up to 5200-5700 rpm depending on variables with shifts at right about 6000 rpm for best performance.

A Superram as compared to the price of a Aftermarket large tube runner set-up really isn't all that bad if you think about it.

Accel Base intake = $ 400
Accel large runners = $ 300
Ported plenum = $ 50

therefore you're paying $ 750 or so for a large tube runner set-up.

A Superram costs about $ 1100 from base to plenum lid... so the different is somewhere around $ 350.... The HP potential is probably a solid 30-40 hp between the two... so you have to decide is 30 hp potential worth $ 350.... it was to me.

good luck
Todd

89IROCZZ4

wow...peak hp at only 4500-4600 even if fully ported? what if it's not ported?

Last time I checked, the ltr's run $475, and big mouth manifold was 425. I also could never seem to find the plenum for less that $85, so in that case, it would be closer to $1000, but if you are correct in your prices (and I really, REALLY hope you are), that sounds better.

The SuperRam is sounding really nice now too...hrrrmmmm....how about the miniram? do you suggest the superram over it? on a zz4, what do you guess the 1/4 to be and how much hp?

Todd85

I've seen the runners for something like $ 319 at Summit before. (At least for an 85)

The intake was low 400's too. The plenum really just needs the ridge right inside the entrance removed... any local machine shop can do that for $ 50 or less... only takes a few minutes to do with a Machine Tool.


The Mini-ram is a nice intake too... whichever you choose, just make sure you match the heads and cam profile to the chosen manifold. 1/4 miles on a well optimized set-up should be low 12's with a SR or MR, but you have to have everything else working too... primarily a good torque converter and sticky tires, good flowing exhaust.

A ZZ4 from the heads down is nothing more than a 90 L98 vette motor with a ZZ3 cam. I know they're rated at 355 HP with the dual plane and carb... but when you put the TPI on top of it you choke it back down to roughly 270-280 HP this is 20-30 hp higher than a 90 vette motor primarily because of the ZZ3 cam and slightly lighter valvetrain with titanium retainers.... The ZZ3 cam in my opinion is not adequate for the SR or MR... more geared towards a motor with an intake/head combo that want to make its peak at 5000-5200 rpm, just a little short for the SR, quite a bit short for the MR.

hope this kinda helps

Cheers,
Todd

87Irocz

Todd85,

Dose'nt the tq drop drastically at lower rpms with the super ram? I always thought that the super ram pushed the peak way to high for a street car. personally I think a good manifold, large tube runners and ported plenum will be a much better combo for a street machine. IMO that extra hp & tq comes to late in the power band for me.

Later,
87Irocz

FlashGTA

A stock TPI setup gets it's peak HP at 4250 RPM and peak torque at 3000. With a fully ported stock base it is almost exactly the same. You need a combination ported base or aftermarket base LTR's or SLP's and a different cam to get the peaks up higher.

89IROCZZ4

I think the zz4 w/the carb setup it came with made peak hp at around 5200 rpm. Does this mean it would be best to try and get it to breathe up around 5200 rpm then? I hear that the aftermarket runners add 20 hp. Does this mean if the zz4 is supposed to put out 355 hp then I could see 375 hp?

86ZZ4

no, the 355 hp is with a big Holley kickass exaust,on a dyno run by GM engineers wringing out every last bit of HP they can.With my ported stock intake simese runners and ported plenum i figure im putting out around 310-320 HP maybe

------------------
86 z28 zz4 ssm lift bars ,3.73 simesed runners and a traction deficient 13.707@101.02,on a 2.16 60 ft on 295/50/15 junk street rubber ,best MPH run 13.82@102.7,69 AMX,390 4 speed sticky tires and other stuff..12.94@102.3

super83Z

can someone show me a pic of the mini-ram? I thought I knew what it looked like but I guess not.

------------------
I WOULD RATHER PUSH A CAMARO THAN DRIVE AN IMPORT

1983Z28 350w/ edelbrock performer RPM power package , dynomax shorty headers, 700R-4 with shift kit, 750cfm carb, edelbrock 3" exhaust system, 16" IROC rims and ASCD SS hood.

future mods:
completely done over suspension, black paint with flames,
T-56 almost ready to go in, TPI swap coming up

Wifes new car:

95Z28, AT, leather, T-tops bone stock for now.

future mods:
header to tailpipe replacement and a cold air intake. Then I am just going to leave it alone

Scott 87 IROC-Z

I have some pictures. http://www.cse.buffalo.edu/~ermer/pictures

------------------
87 IROC-Z
Minirammed Solid Roller 377

Todd85

No, the Superram will give you a broader torque curve and MORE torque than a long runnered set-up. Below is my last dyno with a 383 - Superram - LPE 74219 combination.... I don't have any low end torque problems.



I have ran both, the aftermarket long tube runnered set-up and the Superram on my old 350... The Superram outperforms the long runnered set-up easily. And the rpm is not out of the realm for the street... in fact its probably about perfect for a street application. (I has you can see have a 5600 HP peak)

hope this helps
Todd

JucinGTA

I heard that the superrams make it 10 times harder to work on your engine compared to the miniram?

89IROCZZ4

Well what would be the optimum point to raise my peak hp to? And, since the tpi is only making peak hp at 4250 rpm, does that mean that it only allows for my zz4 to make peak hp at 4250 as well? Here is a little dyno sheet of the zz4 as from the factory:



I hope that works! So, from here, if that is true, I am only making about 290 hp. Doesn't that seem a little low to be running a 13.30 on 2.73 gears?

Todd85

Juicin,

Yes the SR is harder to install and work on than the MR. The belly bolts of the plenum are a freakn pain in the *** ... but then again, once you get your set-up installed, why work on it ? I would guess it takes about 1-2 hours longer to install vs the stock TPI set-up and probably 3 hours longer than a MR depending on your experience level. I actually have a racing buddy who can install his SR in about 1-2 hours total... he's gotten pretty good at it.


89IrocZZ4,

As I assume you know the higher the rpm you can carry your torque, the more HP you're going to make. The Dual plane intake and Carb can carry the torque a lot better above 4000 rpm than the factory TPI set-up simply due to air volume vs velocity. As a note:

TPI factory runners and manifold flow 199 cfm total when coupled together.

Typical Dual Plane carb manifolds such as a Edelbrock performer flows 288 cfm.... I would guess the supplied dual plane on the ZZ4 motor flows in the neighborhood of 260 cfm. Which is more than the heads flow considerably, but you want that...

As a note, I ran 12.8's with roughly 310 HP at a 3500lb raceweight in my 85 Vette, with a 3.07 gear.

A racing buddy has approxmiately 280 HP in his 90 vette and runs 13.2's in the summer heat at 102 mph with a raceweight of 3400 lbs with a 3.07 gear. He was running a 2.59 gear, installed the 3.07's and only picked up about 1/2 tenth. TPI's don't need or necessarily want a lot of gear.

Whats your trap speeds with your 13.30's ? Whats your raceweight ? Whats your 60 fts ?

Todd

89IROCZZ4

uh oh...I fear that I may have purchased a wrong part. I ordered 3.73 gears. Maybe too much for tpi? Maybe I should end up going w/carb? I ran in the neighborhood of 105 mph and I can't remember my 60 foot times (maybe 2.0?) As far a weight goes, I'm about 225, and my iroc has no a/c at ALL, cowl hood, and of course, the aluminum heads so I'm guessing with me in it, 3600 lbs. I wish there was an actual dyno sheet on stock tpi on a zz4!

Todd85

105 mph with a 3500 raceweight would indicate more of 310-320 HP area.... I ran 105 mph traps with a 3500 raceweight and roughly 310 HP at one stage of modifications.

The 3.73's are not necessarily going to hurt your et's, probably not help it much either with a TPI. I will say if you have the stock torque converter in an auto, they can help you slightly, but once again not much. But the LT-1 motors, Miniram motors and most Carb motors love those gears.

With a ZZ4 motor, It is a 90 Vette motor from the heads down with the exception of a slightly ligher valvetrain, slightly raised runners and the ZZ3 Cam. The cam will increase your HP roughly 15-20 HP with a TPI on top of it. However, you would see better gains with some head work and a better intake system from the cam. The titanium retainers simply lighten up the valvetrain a hair and typically give around 5 hp up around 5000 rpm and above... which in theory, your motor should never see that rpm.

Not sure why're you trapping at 105 with a ZZ4, stock TPI at a 3500 lb raceweight.... but I wouldn't complain, you've got a strong motor.

cheers,
Todd

BadSS

This is a very good link for TPI-ZZ4 info

http://www.eecis.udel.edu/~davis/z28/

ZZ4 with the stock 1985 TPI intake and ported cast iron manifolds
85 MAF 13.618@99.49 – 500 miles - first pass - I’m sure he improved on this but did not see it listed on his site.

Later Mike changed the slow 85 computer to the faster 86 -89 MAF system and tested that between the 90-92 MAP system. However the et increases came from adding a ported Edlebrock base intake, AS&M LTRunners, GM “HOT” cam, and 1.75” SLP headers with Random Tech. His times increased a good bit.

1 (MAP) 13.098@105 (let car shift to OD)
2 (MAP) 13.095@105 (let car shift to OD)
3 (MAF) 12.941@105 (kept car in 3rd to 5600rpm)
4 (MAF) 13.071@103 (let car shift to OD)
5 (MAF) 12.927@106 (kept car in 3rd to 5800rpm)
6 (MAP) 13.063@105 (kept car in 3rd to 5800rpm)
7 (MAP) 13.050@105 (kept car in 3rd to 5600rpm)

Later basically the above combination with 190 AFR heads has run a 12.561@108.96

He also has a wealth of dyno info posted for different combinations showing the peak points and includes the LTR set up, a Miniram on the ZZ4 heads with Hot cam, the AFR heads, and a siamesed TPI base intake on the AFR heads. His testing is incomplete on the siamesed base due to unexpected engine problems that started to occur around that time. I’m sure he’ll post the updated results as soon as he can.

http://www.eecis.udel.edu/~davis/z28/winter01/dyno/

As far as my 2cents goes,, I’m running a fully ported GM base and plenum, mildly worked SLP runners ($200 online sale), and 52mm BBK t/b. This intake system is working well. I shift at 5400 rpm although the car does not slow down with shift points as high as 5700 rpm. I would estimate peak power around 5000 rpm. So,, I’d think a fully ported stock base and plenum with aftermarket runners would be plenty to supply stock ZZ4 heads.

Good luck.

87Irocz

Todd85,

Thanks for the info, I really appreciate it.

Thanks
87Irocz

Todd85

BadSS,

Great Link !! I've read some of that before, really like the information.

I'll attempt to share some of my personnel experiences below:

I have an 85 Vette. My 1st round of modifications were: 52mm TB, ported plenum, Accel large runners, Accel base intake manifold, Dart 2 heads out of the box, Crane Cam 467/494 224/236 flat tappet, Hooker 1 3/4" headers.

Stock torque converter (85's had a pretty good one installed from the factory), stock 3.07 gears and all raceweights were at 3500 lbs.

Baseline with above: 1.82 60 ft 13.15 @ 103 mph.

Obviously disappointed... I felt I had the wrong cam installed, so next round of modifications ripped apart motor and converted to hyd roller LPE 74211 cam and did a little bowl work on the Dart 2 heads.

Results: 1.72 60 ft 12.78 @ 106 mph. At this stage I only had a measly 260 rwhp... which equates to somewhere around 260/.82 = 317 flywheel HP.

But still not happy, I next opened the stock cat (perfect condition cat.. was not clogged)

Results: 1.70 60 ft 12.55 @ 108 mph
A single cat design on a modified motor is not a good thing for performance. I think if I was equiped with dual cats the performance increase would have been minimal at best.

Next I disconnected the knock sensor due to the believe the sensor was sending false knock counts to the ecm.

Results: 1.70 60 ft 12.42 @ 109.5
This obviously worked. And this is as far as I could take Large Tube Runners on my very high mileage motor (187,000 miles at this point)

I next took off the Accel runners and plenum and installed the Superram. Keeping in mind I still left the LPE 74211 cam in.

Results: 1.70 60 ft 12.33 @ 111.83 mph
This was a great move, the motor now breathed so much better, with no loss of low end torque like I was led to believe. Its was a freakn uglyass box that was hard to install, but worth it. Don't let the .09 et improvement full you, the average gains were 2 tenths... and this was with the wrong cam.

60's never seem to improve with me for whatever reason, so I switched to the Precision Industries Vigalante with a 3000 rpm converter.

Results: 1.65 60 ft 12.12 @ 111.6 mph
Finally a 1.6x 60 foot !!!

I thought about putting the 74219 camshaft in at this point, my motor just broke 190,000 miles, and I thought if a lot is good, more must be better, so I replaced the tired 350 ci with a well built 383... the only other differences was I installed the LPE 74219 and a 58 mm TB.

Results: 1.55 60 ft 11.55 @ 117

What really surprised me is that my 383 revved farther than the 350... it was obvious that the old 74211 was holding back the SR, I really think I could have snuck into the 11's on the old 350 with the 74219 cam and some good air. Guess I'll never know.

My next modifications: My motor is an iron headed Dart 2 motor with only mild port work, the compression is roughly 9.7-1 with the bowl work and the Superram is un-ported. Therefore, my next stage of modifications will be a bump in compression with Aluminum heads, which will also flow quite a bit better than the Darts and to thoroughly port the SR, I might also bump up the injector size, considering I am still running 24lb injectors.

Results: I haven't a clue, but considering the above should be worth 20-30 hp and a loss of 60 lbs in weight with the aluminum heads.... I hope for 11.20's @ 119-120.... we'll see, and I'll be sure and post the results.

As a note: I did a heck of lot more product testing as shown above including before and after test on the following stuff: pulley's,
cold air box, MSD6A, TCI 2500 rpm converter, front skinnies, TPIS level 5 chip vs Formato Chip, 3.07 vs 3.45 gears, etc.... but I didn't want to turn this into a novel, so I've left out a bunch of tests.

Hope somebody finds this remotely interesting.

Cheers,
Todd


[This message has been edited by Todd85 (edited September 05, 2001).]

89IROCZZ4

thanks Todd, thats good stuff! What do you think about the siamesing idea? there is an "anti-tuning" post somewhere here thats sounds like it would produce numbers similar to the ltr/big mouth combo. I would love to do this due to the fact that it is free!

JucinGTA

Hey BadSS, So what is your buddy shifting at in each gear?

Todd85

I really can't comment on the Siamesing of the long tubes... I honestly do not know exactly what happens to the torque curve.

As a note, a racing buddy siamesed his SR runners and slowed down... he spent some dough having them re-welded back to the norm. But could have been other issues effecting his outcome.... dunno.

Are there any examples on this forum with Siamesed runners ?

later
Todd