88BlackZ-51

iTrader: (2)

There has been more then a handfull of guys that have shown interest in this 421 build, and have commented if it's a success then they will think of going this route instead of the 383/396 route. The engine builder as most of you know is Jim "tpi 421 vette" and he will be taking some pictures of the build along the way for you guys to see. Listed below are the meat' and potatoes of the engine.

Below are most of the "dollar" parts of the motor. If it wasn't for Jim finding me a deal on some of these parts, I wouldnt be able to do the somewhat "budget 421" build. Thanks alot Jim!

Hope you guys enjoy!

Crower rods.


F.A.S.T. and MSD


Bowtie Block.


Bowtie Block.



Callies Crank.


TPIS Miniram.


AFR 195cc.


AFR 195cc.




And here is a motor that Jim is finishing up. Its a 396. Doesnt she look purdy!

396 for a First Gen Camaro.



Pulling out the car while cleaning out the garage.

My 88 with o.e. Z06 rims, (315/30/18) on the rear with full 3 inch true duals incase anyone is wondering.




Have a good weekend guys! :thumbs:

Schultzy89GTA

Looking good Rick. That is going to be one nice combo.

-Schultzy

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

very nice.... that aint much of a budget build i guess.... crower/callies/miniram/afr LOL thats some good stuff in there!!!

88BlackZ-51

iTrader: (2)

actually it is a budget build for a 421.

badazta87

iTrader: (1)

very nice very nice.. Please excuse the drool.. What cam are you going to use?

88BlackZ-51

iTrader: (2)

so far its s custom grind. 230/230, .591/.591 on a 114 lobe. this is not set in stone, but we are leaning towards it. it's somewhat of a mild setup for a 421.

maybe a 236 tops.

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

does seem to be a small for a 421...those cams are good for 383's. depends on your goals tho.

customblackbird

iTrader: (15)

yea wit those heads/intake/displacement i would def be putting more duration on that cam, the lift is good. that miniram is gona REVVVV along wit the heads etc.

im putting on a compcams XFI280 with 230/236 .567/.571 113lobe in my 383. patriot 195cc heads, ported HSR. yadda yadda yadda i should be in the 480-500hp range. your cam would be holding your motor back.

are u running the electric water pump in a daily driver???

88BlackZ-51

iTrader: (2)

88BlackZ-51

iTrader: (2)

ended up going with a 236/242 with .600 lift on a 113 lobe.

GTA Sammy

iTrader: (1)

Have you been able to drive the car yet?
Any idea what kind of #'s you have there?
By the way congrats!!!

88BlackZ-51

iTrader: (2)

The motor hasnt been fired yet. Hoping to have it running by June.

Would like to make 470rwhp/450rwtq, and trap 126ish.

GTA Sammy

iTrader: (1)

Let us know when you fire it up!!!! Hopefully you can tune it quickly.
I'd love to know what a 421 monster can do!!!!

I'll be detailing a forged Eagle 383 HSR/AFR180 buildup very shortly.... 11:1 compression with 6" rods and a XFI268...... should be a beast on the street.

88BlackZ-51

iTrader: (2)

sounds like a nice combo. what's the specs on that cam? and what power are u expecting?


take care.

GTA Sammy

iTrader: (1)

Don't wanna hijack but you asked...
The XFI 268 has 218/224* duration with .570"/.565" lift (1.6RR)
The cam I have now is a Lingenfelter cam 211/219* with .536"/.560" lift (1.6RR)

CamQuested the 260 XFI cam which is very similar to the LPE 211/219 with a little extra lift.
The calculations here were with the HSR and AFR180 Eliminators 1 5/8" longtubes no cats (#'s are at the crank... and dependant on a good tune)
8.5:1 comp 357" 478Hp @ 6000 & 469Tq @ 4500
11:1 comp 383" 555Hp @ 6000 & 574Tq @ 4500

The XFI 268 with the same induction and exhaust on the 11:1 383 is as follows.... 560Hp @6000 RPM and 535ft/Lbs TQ at 5000 RPM.

The 2 cams look very close on the 383 with the Smaller of the two making better Tq......
This is where I beat my head against the wall because conventional wisdom would say "go with the bigger cam!!!" But the smaller cam in the 383 would probably be stronger on the street in the mid range. decisions, decisions!!!!!
I just don't wanna leave it on the table ya know!!!

88BlackZ-51

iTrader: (2)

Hmmm...

Those #'s seem a bit high, but anything over 500chp is good (expect that combo to be right in the area). The bigger cam really isnt big. I would go with it. I went with a 236/242, and I will be lucky to make 550chp hence why I think your #'s are on the highside. 218/224 in a 383 will have excellent street manners. Go on youtube, and research the cars with that cam, and u will see the idle isn't all that bad.

Always expect less, then if you get more it's a bonus!


Take care!

badgta

iTrader: (4)

untrue, a magazine i have, engine masters i do believe had a 4 page article on a 357ci (a 350 bored .040 over) with the comp xe-294-hr10 cam and afr 195 eliminators that made 530 crank hp with a dual plane at 6500rpm.

the xfi lobes are aggresive, but i done some research and the cam i have, the xfi292 had specs for springs that just about matched whats was in my afr 195 eliminators..

true even i might be swapping the xfi for the xe 294, but either way it does prove you do not have to build a monster ci engine to achieve respectiable numbers, upping your cubic inches does make it eaiser, but i think you mainly will be raising the "average" hp and torque numbers the motor will be putting out.

ill check and see what issue it was, i have it laying on my table at home, so you can look at all the specs.

adam

88BlackZ-51

iTrader: (2)

adam.

i hope he makes the power, but most times guys don't. it's just how it goes. i have spent many hrs watching cars on the dyno, and its very humbling at times. i dont see how his 383 will make the same power as my 421.

if he makes more power then me that's great for him, i really could care less. i am not going to argue about this because days are way 2 short, but like i said it seems like a 400rwhp combo or a bit more if the tuning is bang on.

i guess we will see if it's true, or untrue, but my money is that it wont make 450rwhp-460rwhp which is "around" 550-560chp with an auto. if he does then everyone should build that combo, cause it's a great one.

the issue will be the tuning.

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

I agree. Those cams are rather small and will be hard pressed to break the 400whp mark. I estimate 360whp

GTA Sammy

iTrader: (1)

[QUOTE=GTA Sammy;4545742] The XFI 268 with the same induction and exhaust on the 11:1 383 is as follows.... 560Hp @6000 RPM and 535ft/Lbs TQ at 5000 RPM. QUOTE]

Right off the bat I wanna say that I'm not one of these guys that says my Sh*t is gonna be the best!!!! And I'm gonna make OOber Horsepower.... I'm pretty conservative and usually laugh at people that say they have power without any Dyno time or 1/4 mile timeslips to substantiate it.... that being said.....

Those calculated Hp/Tq numbers do seem rediculously high!!!!..... I thought so too the first time I put my original setup into it. But it came within 5% of my 357" HSR on a Mustang dyno..... once you add the driveline losses. So I don't know what to say....

I've never used Comp Cams "CamQuest" before the other day when somebody here on TGO enlightened me to it.

Either way, I think that Hp talk is for bench racing.... I wanna make crazy TORQUE!!!!
The fact of the matter is that 421" will have will have us all beat hands down

88BlackZ-51

iTrader: (2)

[QUOTE=GTA Sammy;4546188]
Christian.

We arent saying that you are an internet bullshit artist. For all we know your motor will make the power that camquest computes. I just have a hard time believing it will the runners being 180cc's, the tiny duration, and the length of the runners on the HSR.

But I hope you do make close to the #'s you stated. Keep us all updated please as I do like your combo. When my engine builder, myself, and Tony Mamo were picking my combination I made it very very known that my combo is for the street and not for the 1320. Hence why I went with small heads like you, and a small cam like yourself. I am relying on the efficient small ports that still push over 300cfm at .600 lift, and the power under the curve with the 421 cubic inches. I actually spoke to a guy yesterday who has alot of experience with 420's (he has put 7 cams in his sbc), and he claims if my tune is bang on, I will make 575chp/545tq (490rwhp). My goal a while back was 450rwhp, but if I can hit 490rwhp then even better. I dont think I will but here's hoping.

Have a good day.

BNBZ28

iTrader: (1)

my 383 makes right at 350 to the wheels with a simiar setup so adding some cubic inch to it and a better head you should be able to make over 400.

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

87TA on these boards has a 406 miniram combo that traps 126-127 in a 93/94 firebird. Did the same when it was in the 87 trans am. Its got a TPIS 242/242 solid roller with mid high 500's lift. Good street strip solid roller. He had ported old school AFR 195's that flowed about the same as the new eliminators.

You have better heads and similar cam and a few more cubes, so its quite possible it will run 126 or better. For what its worth my 383 with a 150 shot went 127-128 mph. Thats 400whp on motor, estimated 500-520 on the shot. I would think 87TA's motor would put out 460-470whp but the way it ran it may be more. That car is a street car, its not that aggressive.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zVUNNFoz2_8

badgta

iTrader: (4)

im not trying to say he wont make this or that, nor am i trying to make a argument on what if's, all i am saying is that it's silly to try and say a 350ci engine will be worse than a 400 just because a 400 is 50ci larger, or a 302 chevy is worse than a 350 etc etc..

ci don't mean jack, and if anyone tells you that it's a mistake on their part, people always wanted to build bigger inch motors back in the day because they thought it was a eaiser route than building a efficent smaller ci engine...

it's a pure misnomer.

again in a book i have at home pitted a 383 chevy vs a destroked 377 400 motor, and the 383 made better on average torque and hp over the 377. both motors were built to try and match them perfectly for dyno purposes, but i think it proves just beacuse your using a larger bore block, dosen't mean the power is better.

true, stuffing a tiny peanut cam in a 420ci motor is going to be torquey, but i rather had built say a 383 and used a factory or aftermarket tpi setup if all i was after is torque.

then again i hate 383's. why, lets just say i tried it once and it was a headache through and through. small base circle cams, grinding, clearincing, etc etc, just a nightmare. the 421 is going to put you in the seat, thats for sure, but i think that you might want to rethink that cam choice a little. just a thought.. either way, good luck man, sound as if it's going to be a screamer to say the least.

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

I will disagree here but do not want to debate this in this thread. You said it yourself here.
You may not need the cubes to make the power (Peak power) you want, but the cubes will make more torque and average power and higher average power makes the faster car. The benefits to larger cubes outweighs any reason to stick with a smaller cube motor in my opinion unless you are stuck with size limit for a class or have a certain stroke/bore size already and for budget reasons, can not go to a different setup.

230-236 deg cams will peak in the 5600-5800 range on a 421. Thats mild rpm and the 114 lsa will make idle that much more tame. I'd put it on a 112. The 233/233 112lsa cam in my 401 idles very nicely and will peak in the mid upper 5000 rpm range on a n/a motor. Its a good street cam with good power potential. I think your choice of a 230/230 isnt bad but with the miniram, i'd tighten up the lsa for abit more overlap. LTx cars respond well to higher overlap cams, a miniram is no different.

Street Lethal

iTrader: (16)

More cubic inch displacement means more torque, and more torque means more calculated horsepower potential. In naturally aspirated engines, cubic inches will always make more power, period....

88BlackZ-51

iTrader: (2)

Just so we are on the same page. Below is the cam I went with.....



-4 Bolt Bowtie block. 1 Piece rear main seal.
-AFR 196c Eliminator Comp Ports 65cc. (Approx 30xcfm/23xcfm@.600)
-11.6 CR.
-Callies Compstar Crank.
-JE Pistons JE#103742 solid dome.
-Crower Rods #SSP93302 with 7/16" bolts.
-TPIS Miniram ported
-Comp Cam XE Hyd Roller 236/242 .62x/.58x on a 113 lobe separation.

88BlackZ-51

iTrader: (2)

Really? I originally was going to go with a 383, but the engine builder phucked me over, so I then found another guy who talked me into a 421. I think the extra cubes will be felt throughtout the entire curve.

GTA Sammy

iTrader: (1)

Hey Z-51 don't let anyone rattle your cage man....

You've obviously put enough time, effort, research and $$$ into this combo to let anyone under your skin.

Don't kid yourself, We'd all love to have a mouse engine like that!!!!
A 421" Minirammed Zinger!!!! WooHoo.....

88BlackZ-51

iTrader: (2)

Hey man. I could care less what anyone says. If you knew what I did for a living you would know my skin is very thick.

88BlackZ-51

iTrader: (2)

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

-Comp Cam XE Hyd Roller 236/242 .62x/.58x on a 113 lobe separation


I think you will like that alot. I would keep the exhaust lift up there with the intake since those heads flow well to .600+. But it should work out well. That cam on a 113 should make for a decent idle in a 421" motor. Solid combination so far.

88BlackZ-51

iTrader: (2)

Thanks bud. We will see how she runs when it's tuned. I was going to go with the 230/230 cause I had the 195 street ports, then I decided to step it up to the 195 comp ports so I bumped up the cam also.

BadSS

Tell that to Carl Long after NASCAR penalized him with a 12 race suspension, $200,000 fine, and 200 owner/driver points for running an engine that was 0.17 cubic inches over the 358 CID limit.

88BlackZ-51

iTrader: (2)

I am sure Carl Long is totally aware of this, and we dont have to waste our time telling him this. No clue what your comments have to do with this thread.

Carl's motor is nothing any of us can afford, and nothing you will see next to you at a red light.

BadSS

Seriously? You think I was addressing Carl Long and suggested people run a $50,000 NASCAR engine on the street? Waste of time and nothing to do with this thread? You made comments on the exact same quote. That’s OK,, I understand. However,, just on the chance you really are clueless about my previous comment,,, I gave an example of a NASCAR team that was willing to cheat and chance the wrath of NASCAR for a power advantage from a measly 0.17 cubes. Cubes mean something. Get it? The comment was about the cube factor and nothing but the cubes.

Since YOU brought up affordability and traffic lights,, the way things are going in this economy,, I believe the chances of most people seeing an engine like yours pulling up beside them at a traffic light is not much different than them seeing a NASCAR engine next to them. Not hatin’,, just sayin’ - LOL

88BlackZ-51

iTrader: (2)

Gotcha. It was costing to most me an extra $800 to build a 421 over a 383. It was a no brainer really.....My motor isnt anything special in regards to the chances of people seeing it. I know a handfull of guys building motors right now, but I guess the economy in Canada is a tad better'.

BadSS

Yep,, there are some States feeling it worse than others. Go figure. Move all the manufacturing jobs to Canada and overseas to make things cheaper and wonder why no one is buying. Uh,, if you're out of work,, it doesn't matter how cheap it is,, you can't buy it!! Sorry,, I'll get back on topic now!!

I agree,, no brainer in going big if you're buying new all forged and an aftermarket block. The question at that point turns to,,, is it worth the hassle involved and the little extra money going with the raised deck block,,for even more cubes? It's hard to stop once you start!!

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

Agreed, might as well go big block. Something I should have done if I wasnt concerned too much with the weight of one.

But when building a small block, the cheapest option is finding a good factory block and throwing in the biggest crank you can fit. Most cases thats a 383. I dont find the 396 worth the effort and money for special rods/pistons. Next best is factory 400 block but these arent as available as 350's and are known to be weak. Dart SHP is one of the best alternatives for a good OEM type block that comes with splayed main caps and 4.125" bores. I dont know pricing on bowtie blocks but they are pretty strong.

I agree this isnt your average Joe street motor here. This one will run pretty hard and is expensive compared to a factory block build.

Wishmaster's87IROC

iTrader: (4)

just to let you know...Im jeleous of both you guys! but im all tapped out so im stuck with what i got.

Jim85IROC

iTrader: (2)

Just out of curiosity, what made you choose the AFR 195s over the 210s? With that many cubes, combined with the high-revving miniram, it seems like that motor would be a perfect candidate for a bigger flowing head, even if it means a loss of low end torque.

I'm not trying to criticize your choice... I'm just attempting to learn something.

88BlackZ-51

iTrader: (2)

It would make more power with the 210cc, no doubt about it, but if you look at the flow #'s of the 195 and 210cc comp ports you will see that from .200 to .600 the two heads pretty much flow the same, but the bigger ports will start to pull away after .600 valve lift. I really wanted a motor that put you back in your seat at all rpm's, and the 195's should do the trick. Not to mention we are still hoping that she will peak to 6100-6300 rpm's. If I was going with a solid roller, and wanted to spin it past 6500, then I would of went with a different head.

I know exactly what you are saying, and it wasnt an easy choice, but the choice was made on the smaller heads since driveability, tuning, and idle quality all came into play. This car will be driven 99% (golf course, grocery store) of the time on the street, so the high flowing small ports will do the trick I am hoping. I cannot wait to give it a blirp of the throttle at lower rpm's, and the car pull forward and stay into it until redline.

88BlackZ-51

iTrader: (2)

I hear you brother. I am tapped out as well hence why the motor hasnt been tuned yet, but at least its built and in the car. It will all come together soon I hope.

I have alot of patience....

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

yeah my buddies 406 ran extremely hard (high 10's on motor) with a mild solid roller and 195 cc heads. I cant wait to see what it does with ported 195's that spec out to 320cfm now and 210cc's.
195's will make plenty of power. 210's will really start to shine above 5800-6000 or so rpm, but between idle and there, I think it would be a crapshoot.

If i had a 420+ inch big bore motor for n/a street use, i'd use AFR 220's or even 235's and add about 10-15 more degs duration to that cam being used. Miniram would need to be opened up to flow near 340cfm. Then again, it wouldnt be a 99% street driven car, probably 80/20 but it would rock out.

88BlackZ-51

iTrader: (2)

It takes some money to open one up to flow 340cfm. Of course a cam like a 248 and a set of 235's would rock and prob make 500rwhp.