MONSTERZ

Okay guys I am new here just saying hello and getting right into the questions. I have a 85 Z28 with TPI. I had a 305 which has now been swapped out for a 350. No real mods yet but working on it now that I have a 350 to play with. First question... Do the injectors need to be swapped as well from the 22lbs or whatever they are to a higher output? Or will the computer adjust automatically. Next question.. I am looking for a Cam to put in but I am very weak in knowledge about CAMS. Can someone suggest a nice cam that will give me that BEAST idle? If you can help me out I would greatly appriciate it. Also if there is anyone here from So Cal (San Diego) area that can hook me up with a reliable shop or mechanic to do some work on my baby please let me know. Thanks.

IROC-Z_85

Hey there, welcome to the board!!


I noticed nobody has replied to you yet

I have the exact same car so i can help you with my experiences, as far as a great idling cam that pulls to about 4,500-5,000 I JUST installed a crane compucam, but im still running the 305, so you might want the 2040. As far as injectors the 305 has 19lb/hr, the 350 needs 22-24 (depending on mods) I'd say you could run the 19s with an adj fpr untill you start modding.

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1985 IROC-Z, nuff said :P

Ed Maher

You're in a bad situation. There is no easy way for you to tune your current ECM, thus if you ever want to run 'right' you have to convert to the later MAF ECM, or ideally, the 90-92 speed density computer.
For now you need to stay w/ the 19lb injectors or else you will run WAY rich as the ECM/MAF will dump fuel thinking you have 19lb injectors. In closed loop it *may* still be able to compensate for it, but any closed loop operation (start-up, WOT, etc) will be pig rich.
If you want a cam w/ a lumpy idle you won't remotely come near passing emmisions w/o serious tuning, which again you can't do w/ your 85 ECM. Also, lumpy cams generally aren't compatible with the way TPI's make power, so although you will sound cool, it won't ever run like it would with a better intake or a smaller cam.
Also, good luck finding any shop that actually knows how to work with TPI and make it run right. Unless you get direct references from people with similar combos to yours that they have turned out and run good, don't trust a word they say until they prove they know what they are doing. If you just look around these boards you will find more people who have been screwed by mechanics guessing and experimenting on their cars. You will find few (if any) that have had a properly running combo done by anyone except themself.

Which brings me to my final point. If you want to make a stout street warrior (or even beyond), you've found the right place. This site/concept has come along way in the years since it was on a missouri univ. server. Collectively we've seen/run/tuned just about any combo you can think of. If you read/search and ask the right questions you can do it all yourself, correctly, the first time.
...ed

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Ed Maher - Moderator @ The Carb Board
92 Z28 Convertible - Quasar blue / Tan top
LB9 4L60 GU2 G80 - stock, soon to be sleeper
-=ICON Motorsports=-

- Definitely prototypes, high powered mutants of some kind. Too weird to live, too cool to die

IROC-Z_85

Man you can really smash a guys hopes :P

But thats all true, im swapping to a 89 ECM and forgot to mention it, and as far as a "good idle" i assumed he meant small cam. and as a heads up the 85 is a stand alone year, there was nothing quite like it.

(note, i dont have emissions where I live so i do what i want :P )

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1985 IROC-Z, nuff said :P

Greg '85 T/A

Here come the '85 flames.

I hate to say this, but you should call TPIS, Arizona Speed and Marine, or Lingenfelter -(pose the question as a fuel injector one and then say, "by the way, will my ECM work?") Most people here just bad-mouth the '85 TPI cars. TPIS actually has had good things to say about the '85 ECM - check last month's Hot Rod (or Car Craft - can't remember) Remember, there were '85 350s in 'Vettes. You don't NEED to do a lot of re-programming for the mods you want. Anyway, here's the link to a guy who installed a 350 ZZ4 in his '85 (he's pretty avid about tuning - notice he's made a number of ECM upgrades since the transplant - see if that's the kind of effort you want to put in).

http://www.eecis.udel.edu/~davis/gm-eproms/ecm_swap/

A lot of people are attempting to re-program their own PROMs atround here now, but you can still meet your goals with a chip from someone reputable like Ed Wright or Craig Marcho.
If you're looking to build a drag car, you should go carburetor anyway


Ed - I think he meant "BEST" idle, which would certainly be emission-friendly.

p.s. check out www.corvetteforum.com
They have some '85-friendly people over there. Here's a quote:
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"Craig Marcho - Forum Member" and Fastchips seem to be the ones recommended by owners with 85 vettes.

Craig specializes in 1985 and will burn a chip specific to your car at an unbelievable cost.
**************************************


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-Greg

'85 Trans Am - WS6,TPI:
Original owner, original paint/engine/interior, plus the usual bolt-ons

[This message has been edited by Greg '85 T/A (edited July 02, 2001).]

Ed Maher

WTF are you talking about, the link you posted clearly states at the beginning:
With the biggest advantage IMHO to a later ECM being that you can burn your own chips for it.
Sure you could just get somebody else to do your chip for you. You might even get lucky and get a chip that runs OK. Chances are it will run like *** and need to be sent back and forth many times, possibly even costing you more money with every reburn. And in the end you still have a ****ty ECM, with a slow ALDL data stream and a unique expensive MAF with an even more unique and ridiculuosly expensive burn off relay to go along with it. And if you ever want to change it, there goes more money to a tuner *hoping* it comes out right again.
As to not *needing* a lot of reprogramming. VERY true, and in fact is the biggest reason WHY he needs to change ECMs. Which would you rather do, pay TPIS $500 to change the injector constant and maybe tweak the timing curve some (exactly what tim sifford found in his TPIS stage 5 PROM, w/ stock fuel curve for his heavily modded car) or dial it in yourself. Hell, the cost of the burning set up and ECM swap will run you less than one chip from most reputable tuners. He'll end up in the same place if not better after the swap and have INFINITELY more potential down the road, WITH NO EXTRA COST INVOLVED.

And i don't think he meant 'best' idle. In the context of the sentence "Can someone suggest a nice cam that will give me that BEAST idle?", would not make sense as "Can someone suggest a nice cam that will give me that BEST idle?" 'that best idle' idle makes no sense grammatically, 'that beast idle' does as that implies a specific quality, which 'beast idle' is, best idle is comparitive and more subjective in nature, lol. Enough english.

Rather than bicker, here's how it breaks down, feel free to critique these facts as you see fit.

Swapping ECMs - pros
-you can burn your own chips giving you future tuneability for less than the cost of one chip from ANY chip maker
-MUCH faster ALDL data stream, making diacom/scanner tuning a much more meaningful endeavor
-uses a cheaper MAF sensor (or no MAF withthe ideal SD swap) and eliminates the super high $$$ burn off relay in the event of parts failure for either.

cons:
-need to repin harness (not that hard)
-if you go 165 you need the right MAF stuff so a little extra cost is possible. NOTE 1- might get the stuff you need w/ the ECM for not too much $$. NOTE 2- you don't need any expensive sensors w/ SD. NOTE 3- you can probably make more money selling your 85s MAF and burnoff relay than either ECM swap would cost.

Stay w/ 85 ECM pros:
-no repinning of harnesses needed
-no cost involved presently to stay with hardware.

cons:
-you get to pay more than an ECM swap for the priviledge of letting someone burn you a chip that *might* be close or *might* run like hell. In my experience, 99% of people are not happy with the first custom chip they get from anywhere, let alone the second and third, etc attempts. Further, if the chip isn't close, if they ask you to send them some diacom data to help them dial it in (which is common if you want it done right), your slow ALDL data rate is basically useless. For a relatively mild combo it does not make sense to pay someone to make the few changes you would need w/ a MAF car, even if a burning set up is a few $$$ more than craug marcho's or whoever (i know ed wright charges more than a PP costs, and don't even mention TPIS, if you buy a TPIS chip and complain of anything, the cause shall be assumed to be the chip by most of the knowledgeable folks around here.)
-If your MAF or esp. burnoff module goes, AHAHAHAHAHAHA
- already mentioned in point one, but uselessly slow data stream
- first generation TPI computer will naturally have less refinements in the code for driveability/performance/emmisions. Also, it's self diagnostics are no doubt retarded and useless as well compared to later cars. Even 85 CCCS cars are noticeably dumber than 86 up CCCS.
-Cannot eliminate the cold start valve

Greg '85 T/A

Hey man, didn't mean to p**s you off. I sent him to Mike Davis' site because he started with the '870 ecm. Maybe his achievements would be of interest to him. (In retrospect, I should have directed him to Davis' home page - I had hoped he would work his way back to the earlier tests with the '870, but that's the bookmark I had handy)

I'm sure a lot of people here have gone from 305 - 350 without changing computers. Not everyone wants to burn their own chips, either. Unless I'm mistaken, here's the cost of burning your own chip:

$150 = Pocket Programmer
$499 = Diacom
$50 = UV Eraser
$Free to $70+ = Programming Software

I'm an Electrical Engineer. I worked for Delco Electronics from 1982-1984 and still have friends in Kokomo, IN. I know all the benefits of upgrading.

Ed, I was just trying to keep MONSTERZ's car on the road, where he could enjoy it. I thought he was talking about a simple swap. Surely a "beastly" cam might require some heavy-duty programming. There's no point in arguing the now stale MAF vs. SD vs. '870 vs. '165 vs. 730 here. I know as moderator, its your duty to spank dummies like me. I hope everyone enjoyed your informative and passionate reply.

(Oh, and I DIDN'T recommend a chip from TPIS - I don't even know if they sell them for '85s anymore)

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-Greg

'85 Trans Am - WS6,TPI:
Original owner, original paint/engine/interior, plus the usual bolt-ons

IROC-Z_85

Go greg go!


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1985 IROC-Z, nuff said :P

Ed Maher

You didn't **** me off, i always sound that way when i post, for some reason i don't know how to not sound like an *******. I should come with a warning label, lol.
Anyhow, using flash chips the UV eraser expense is out. And diacom shouldn't count as just a programming cost, as it's a great thing to have in general, and without it aftermarket tuners will just be guessing too.
I guess i'm so outspoken on this cuz i've seen WAY too many people spend the bookoo $$$ on tuner's chips only to have poor performace and driveability. Very few people have had 'good' luck with a tuner's chip, and i've never heard anyone get anywhere near a 'perfect' chip (which is a unicorn, but nonetheless, i said close, not on, lol) And with the rest of the 85 ECMs limitations it seems to make much more sense to start with something different.

Actually, if you think about it, you don't even need to burn your own chip if he changes ECM. If MAF he could buy a 350 memcal from GM and be done, if SD, same thing. As long as it is relatively mild it'll be damn close (and staying MAF would be -gulp- almost ideal for it's simplicity and greater ability to self compensate for mods.) If he's shooting for well over 300hp though, SD is the way to go and tuning it himself would become necessary. I guess he could try an 85 vette PROM, but i know in later cars you can't run a vette memcal/prom due to some minor code differences.

On a side issue, yes, plenty of people have swapped w/o computer changes. Hell, i used to advocate 305-350 swaps in SD cars w/ no chip changes, and saw it pulled off more than once with timing and FP adjustments. Just a couple short years ago thats what i and many others here would have told you. Why i jumped right into needing a PROM was his desire to run bigger injectors and a lumpy cam. Either alone would be very rough and way off in tune w/ the stock chip. And in today's world, with such easy access to information and the tools, there is no reason to not just go ahead and do it right. Swapping ECMs isn't that hard and if you know where to look, isn't expensive either. And $300 for the burner and all software you need shouldn't be expensive if you can afford to buy/put together a healthy engine. If you're going for ultimate bargain basement power, EFI is still NOT the way to do it. It's getting ALOT cheaper and easier, but if you are working on a shoestring budget, you can't make it work 'right'. And paying hundreds to a tuner for a chip doesn't really qualify as a bargain either, which is why starting with the 85 set up doesn't make sense.

You're right though, this is a stale topic. If you are gonna stay mild, then the 85 set up will work and might even run OK. If you want to tune it / make real power, you need to swap ECMs, you can only band aid and crutch the 85 so far. And buying a tuner's chip is a several hundred dollar gamble that someone who can't afford to swap ECMs really can't afford to take IMO.

IROC-Z_85

I'll tell you what this topic is past due. Us poor saps with the 85 really got shorted. I think one of the best purchases of my life was my car, but the ECM business is just B.S. but thats cool, just gives me one more reason to get under the hood. The problem is there isn't one single TPI car in the whole southern half of my state and the northern half of the state below me in wrecking yards, so getting the harness and ECM means bending over, grabbing my ankles, and kissing my wallet good bye

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1985 IROC-Z, nuff said :P

james_fearn

swapping to an 86-89 ECM is really EASY. It will take you less than a couple hours. Most of the time you'll spend marking the wires to help identify the wire that will be changing. If you want to get into chip burning this is your best option.

It took me less than three hours to do the ecm upgrade. Most of the time I was fetching tools. Know what I know now, it would take me less than 1 hour. Its pretty simple and not much to do

James

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1985 Z-28 305 TPI
165 ECM,STB,SFC,GW "wonderbar"

IROC-Z_85

Im not to concerned with the work, just possible complications and THE PRICE

Like I've said we dont have TPI cars around here in wrecking yards...

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1985 IROC-Z, nuff said :P

Ed Maher

Thatsjust it, it's not difficult or expensive. You don't need a TPI ECM. The same computer came in a bunch of cars, including mass produced economy POS's. I don't know the exact interchanges offhand for the 165, but i know 730s are in pretty much every 60' V6 SD EFI car. The 165 is prolly the same way, do a search on the PROM board. You will be able to find it at a junnkyard or online for cheap (well under 100 bucks)
Then you just need to get the proper memcal to start with, from adealer it should only be maybe $60.
Then you simply change the wire harness locations atthe ECM, not replace the whole thing.
You'll have to change MAFs, which will add to the cost. Vader advocates sthe wells MAF, it's higher flow than stock and much cheaper, do a search for Wells MAF. the rest of the sensors should be the same. A few wires may need to be added, but i don't see how it could be much.


Then $150 for the pocket programmer to burn chips. $110 for tunercat and the .tdf you'll need to read/manipulate chips. And a few bucks more for spare chips online or off ebay (use flash, they are so fast and easy.)


Thats it. I know thatmight sound like a lot to some of you, but if you add it up, the total cost will nly be around $600. If $600 is a lot of money to you, look at it this way, at least you are starting with the good cam (if you're just heavily modding stock i'd bet you could get 13s without openingthe longblock.) and also IIRC you start with decent gearing as well, which is that much less you need to spend. That and the MAF upgrade/replacement are worth more than that. And you can prolly sell the 85 MAF and burnoff for a reasonable sum.

Don't get me wrong, 85 is a great year. at least you don't have that stupid 86 third brake light and yet you still have the IROC GFX.

[This message has been edited by Ed Maher (edited July 02, 2001).]

MONSTERZ

Okay I must say I am VERY impressed with the response. You guys are AWESOME! Funny too

Now for this computer change it is all coming into my brain as a foreign tongue almost.

From your responses I will hold off on the cam idea for now and just focus on getting this baby tuned to run now. Do you guys think I should take her into the Local Dyno tuning shop and see what kind of output I am getting from it now and see what those guys are thinking? I just KNOW that it seems that there is no shop out there that REALLY knows what the heck they are doing when it comes to the dreaded and sometimes miss understood 85 TPI. As for the emissions test out here. That is the last of my worries since my car is still registered in Washington State hahaha. California emissions SUCKS! I mean my EGR isnt even connected soooo. Basically what I am saying is, When are you guys coming out here to work on my ride with me? HAHAHA just kidding. Thank you all for the input and I will keep checking around for more info. I know one thing I am going to need some serious help with this computer switch. If there is anyone down here in Socal that can probably help me out drop me a note here. Thanks a lot guys.

james_fearn

actually I didn't change MAF sensors. All wiring changes were done inside the car. For the computer change my expenses were:

computer: ebay $65
memcal(hypertech): ebay $60
2 relays: Autozone $24
2 relay pigtails: dealer $44 (gmpartsonline)
1 pin terminal: elect. stor $.50

my total for swap: $193.50


plus you will need a soldering iron, solder and shrink wrap. I got the hypertech memcal so I could swap proms easier and I also need another memcal to play with.

I already bought the tuning software($70) and the pocket programmer ($150) and some chip from fry's that were like $3 a piece. I have since aquired flash proms and use those exclusively.

James

MONSTERZ

Hey James where are you in Socal? Can you help me out maybe sometime to do this if I get all the stuff? Show me the ropes and what not to becoming a "85 Camaro Computer Programmer".... hmm wonder if that looks good on a resume.. hahaha. Oh and I just added my Ride to the Readers Rides take a look and tell me what you think. hehe

https://www.thirdgen.org/rides/index...ew&rideid=3880

Greg '85 T/A

Ed, informal written communication is a complex thing. Mis-understandings often are the fault of the receiver as much as by the sender. Conviction is often mis-construed as anger. No harm done.

My philosophy is to start simple and then progress (my wife would give a big HA HA to that). Personally, if I ever do get a bigger engine, I would upgrade the computer at some point (only because there isn't much support for '85s and the pool for parts would be bigger). I do believe a person should limit the number of changes (especially electrical) performed at once so they're not troubleshooting a zillion different things.

These are crazy times. My 90 MHz computer was top of the line when I bought it. My car was state of the art in '85. You know how long either took to become a dinosaur.

Heck, 3 years ago the best advice you could get around hear was to remove your MAF screen and get a cat-back. Now we're talking about changing ECMs and burning PROMs. Whew!

p.s. I just want to say I am biased where '85s are concerned (as if no one could tell). Sixteen years and she's only failed to start once - when the TPS went bad. Have I just been lucky? Probably. Good thing, too, I need a new roof and my well pump crapped out Saturday!

[This message has been edited by Greg '85 T/A (edited July 03, 2001).]

Ed Maher

Exactly greg. Me and some of the other old timers on this site were just talking about that not long ago with how much more we know and how much better we can do things now. Like i said, just a couple years ago i wasa big advocate of not needing a chip swap for all kinds of crazy mods and swaps, and it worked. But knowing what i do now, i cringe at thinking of how much the computers adaptability was compromised doing things that way...and WOT was based off of luck and rough tuning. Yeah you can do it that way in a pinch still, but there's really no advice we can give for dialing in such a set up, it's always gonna be off and needs hands on tuning, not something you can do via a typed description. Things have come along with since then, and unfortunately 85 is the bastard child of the bunch. At least they didn't run 16s stock like the peanut cam LB9s, lol.

b92z28

do you have to have the Diacom to burn proms?

james_fearn

Sure I can help you out. If you get the ECM, a memcal, the relays, and connectors than you are 90% there. Like I said if you want you ECM swapped it will only take an hour of two and most of the time will be spent making sure what you are doing is correct. I already have all the swapping data.

I live in westminster, CA 92683 which is by Huntington Beach and Long Beach.

The only thing I don't have reliably is scanning equipment. My laptop won't run off its battery. It will run if it's plugged into the wall. That said I have scanned my car idling in my driveway several times using craig moates' free scanning software. I think I just need to replace the $100 battery in my 486 laptop but I need to do other things first before I gamble on a fix for that.

I need to do my engine swap from my stock 305 TPI to my loaded 350 TPI. Preparations are consuming most of my time.

James

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1985 Z-28 305 TPI
165 ECM,STB,SFC,GW "wonderbar"

james_fearn

I must admit besides the occasional tempermental overheatting my 85 has been remarkably reliable. The STOCK 305 TPI has well over 230,000 miles. The original trans was rebuilt after 185,000 miles. The only sensor not original is the oil pressure sensor. Once in a while it will want to stall, or idle funny, etc., but it goes away after a day or two.

James