Failed Smog – New Engine?
#1
Failed Smog – New Engine?
Hi,
So my Camaro has struggled to pass the last 4 smog inspections and failed the last two in So Cal. I am tired of going through this. I have 117,000 miles on it. No fluid leaks of any kind. Probabaly have a vacuum leak under the dash related to my vents because I can hear a hiss. Other than that, my Camaro is in immaculate condition, outside, inside, underneath the hood. It has not been a daily driver since around 1998. I will never sell it, and when I die, I have asked my wife to bury me in it. I put around 200 miles a year in it. Please see my list of mods below.
Because I love still love my car, I’m thinking about just throwing in a new engine and high flow cats. I would like to keep my Camaro TPI and smog legal, but I’m not sure how to go about this, what is compatible, and maybe upgrading a little. I will have someone do the work as I don’t have time. Currently my car is at the Chevy dealer where a friend works and will be looking at it. Should I look into a crate engine? What will fit? Should I be looking at just a block and heads? Not sure about budget either. I guess right now I can plan on a budget of 1-4K maybe 5K. Just not sure at this point. What is my best bang for my buck, a 383? A rebuilt? Although I’ve never been one to buy used or rebuilt. Am I wasting my money? Dealer can be very pricey, is there a better shop that knows what they are doing? I’m really looking for some guidance. I’m reading Camaro performance books now and the net to help educate me some more. Lot’s to think about. Other recommendation?
Some pictures of what my engine bay looks like now.
Sorry for the many questions and thanks in advance for your patience and help!
Happy Holidays!
http://f03-f01.mypicturetown.com/P2P...htiQa/item.jpg
http://f03-f01.mypicturetown.com/P2P...%25P0/item.jpg
So my Camaro has struggled to pass the last 4 smog inspections and failed the last two in So Cal. I am tired of going through this. I have 117,000 miles on it. No fluid leaks of any kind. Probabaly have a vacuum leak under the dash related to my vents because I can hear a hiss. Other than that, my Camaro is in immaculate condition, outside, inside, underneath the hood. It has not been a daily driver since around 1998. I will never sell it, and when I die, I have asked my wife to bury me in it. I put around 200 miles a year in it. Please see my list of mods below.
Because I love still love my car, I’m thinking about just throwing in a new engine and high flow cats. I would like to keep my Camaro TPI and smog legal, but I’m not sure how to go about this, what is compatible, and maybe upgrading a little. I will have someone do the work as I don’t have time. Currently my car is at the Chevy dealer where a friend works and will be looking at it. Should I look into a crate engine? What will fit? Should I be looking at just a block and heads? Not sure about budget either. I guess right now I can plan on a budget of 1-4K maybe 5K. Just not sure at this point. What is my best bang for my buck, a 383? A rebuilt? Although I’ve never been one to buy used or rebuilt. Am I wasting my money? Dealer can be very pricey, is there a better shop that knows what they are doing? I’m really looking for some guidance. I’m reading Camaro performance books now and the net to help educate me some more. Lot’s to think about. Other recommendation?
Some pictures of what my engine bay looks like now.
Sorry for the many questions and thanks in advance for your patience and help!
Happy Holidays!
http://f03-f01.mypicturetown.com/P2P...htiQa/item.jpg
http://f03-f01.mypicturetown.com/P2P...%25P0/item.jpg
Last edited by Oscar; 12-17-2007 at 06:01 PM.
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Re: Failed Smog – New Engine?
When was the last time you did a tune up? Change plugs, wires, cap and rotor, and maybe some injector cleaner through it, and change out your o2 sensors and I bet you would pass. Plus it's only a couple hundred bucks, and it will give you better performance.
#4
Re: Failed Smog – New Engine?
----------
you could be right, altough it is somewhere under the dash and related to the a/c vents. I notice one them lags a little to open and close. I can hear the hissing sound sometimes. I'll have my friend check it out.
Last edited by Oscar; 12-19-2007 at 11:16 AM. Reason: Automerged Doublepost
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Re: Failed Smog – New Engine?
Joel
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Re: Failed Smog – New Engine?
thanks again.
Oscar.
https://www.thirdgen.org/forums/tech...ew-engine.html
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Re: Failed Smog – New Engine?
Okay, you will still fail if you have a vacuum leak but you failed because your NOx levels are too high. This is usually a case of the combustion chamber running too hot. Many things can cause this though, and here's a nice related read for ya... http://www.aa1car.com/library/2000/ic60032.htm
I agree, turning down the FP will probably help a fair bit, but try this too...
Go down to your local Napa Auto or other such location, and pick up one bottle of Seafoam and one bottle of CRC's G2P (Guaranteed to Pass). Next make sure you've got about 1 liter (2 bottles) or 32 oz of distilled water.
Start by bringing the engine up to operating temp, then adjust the idle to a consistent 2000-2500 rpm. Next locate vacuum source at the throttle body. Make sure it's one you can safely remove, and that you have spare tubing the same diameter as. Attach the spare vacuum line to the vacuum port keeping your thumb on the other end of the line to act as a cap. Slip your thumb off the end of the line just a bit producing a small vacuum leak and SLOWLY pour the water into the line... The engine might bog down a bit, if it does just stop pouring for a second and replace your thumb as the cap till the revs come back up, then continue as you were maybe poring a bit slower.
Once you are done with the water continue on to the Seafoam.
Follow the directions on the bottle of Seafom, but the poring technique is the same as with the water. Don't be surprised if there is alot of white smoke coming from your tail pipe during this whole process, that's normal and nothing to worry about, unless your neighbors don't like you
After you've completed these two tasks be sure to reconnect your vacuum line properly, replace it if necessary.
Next comes the G2P! Drive to your nearest Chevron station (Yes, Chevron and only Chevron!) and before filling up with the manufacturer recommended octane level, pour in the full bottle of CRC's G2P. Now it's time to drive... and drive and drive and drive You want to run the tank till it's on "E" then fill up at Chevron once again before going back to get tested. Your NOx levels will be MUCH lower this time!
Out of curiosity, what fuel do you use? Not what octane but what brand? If it's anything other than Chevron then guess what, now you're a Chevron man and everything else is Trust me, your failing smog is most likely due to too high of a fuel pressure and poor quality gasoline. Still, just in case, it'd be a good idea to replace the EGR valve as insurance.
I'll re post if I can think of anything else that might help... Actually, if your O2 sensor is old you might want to replace that too, maybe even your cat.
- Joel
I agree, turning down the FP will probably help a fair bit, but try this too...
Go down to your local Napa Auto or other such location, and pick up one bottle of Seafoam and one bottle of CRC's G2P (Guaranteed to Pass). Next make sure you've got about 1 liter (2 bottles) or 32 oz of distilled water.
Start by bringing the engine up to operating temp, then adjust the idle to a consistent 2000-2500 rpm. Next locate vacuum source at the throttle body. Make sure it's one you can safely remove, and that you have spare tubing the same diameter as. Attach the spare vacuum line to the vacuum port keeping your thumb on the other end of the line to act as a cap. Slip your thumb off the end of the line just a bit producing a small vacuum leak and SLOWLY pour the water into the line... The engine might bog down a bit, if it does just stop pouring for a second and replace your thumb as the cap till the revs come back up, then continue as you were maybe poring a bit slower.
Once you are done with the water continue on to the Seafoam.
Follow the directions on the bottle of Seafom, but the poring technique is the same as with the water. Don't be surprised if there is alot of white smoke coming from your tail pipe during this whole process, that's normal and nothing to worry about, unless your neighbors don't like you
After you've completed these two tasks be sure to reconnect your vacuum line properly, replace it if necessary.
Next comes the G2P! Drive to your nearest Chevron station (Yes, Chevron and only Chevron!) and before filling up with the manufacturer recommended octane level, pour in the full bottle of CRC's G2P. Now it's time to drive... and drive and drive and drive You want to run the tank till it's on "E" then fill up at Chevron once again before going back to get tested. Your NOx levels will be MUCH lower this time!
Out of curiosity, what fuel do you use? Not what octane but what brand? If it's anything other than Chevron then guess what, now you're a Chevron man and everything else is Trust me, your failing smog is most likely due to too high of a fuel pressure and poor quality gasoline. Still, just in case, it'd be a good idea to replace the EGR valve as insurance.
I'll re post if I can think of anything else that might help... Actually, if your O2 sensor is old you might want to replace that too, maybe even your cat.
- Joel
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Re: Failed Smog – New Engine?
Try that Seafoam stuff, it works! I failed emissions once, did a complete tune-up, failed again, worse in one area in fact. Used Seafoam (2 full engine treatments, then split the rest between the gas and oil) and here are the results:
Emissions / HC Hydrocarbons / CO Carbon Monoxide / NOx Oxides Of N...
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Stand. Units/____0.8000___ /_____15.0000______/_____2.0000_______
______________Grams/Mile________Grams/Mile___________Grams/Mile____
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
1st test
Reading: /______2.0813____/____34.2569_____/_____0.6791______
2nd test:
Reading: /______1.4347____/____45.0818_____/_____0.7763______
3rd test- Got a "fast pass" less than 30 seconds in. Don't have the acual results, but the HC emissions were down to about 1/2 the standard (in italics), and CO was down to 1/3 the standard. Forgot what NOX ended up as.
P.S. - I get that hissing too, I suppose I'll have to check my vents now. It didn't keep me from passing emissions though, not after that Seafoam stuff.
Emissions / HC Hydrocarbons / CO Carbon Monoxide / NOx Oxides Of N...
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Stand. Units/____0.8000___ /_____15.0000______/_____2.0000_______
______________Grams/Mile________Grams/Mile___________Grams/Mile____
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
1st test
Reading: /______2.0813____/____34.2569_____/_____0.6791______
2nd test:
Reading: /______1.4347____/____45.0818_____/_____0.7763______
3rd test- Got a "fast pass" less than 30 seconds in. Don't have the acual results, but the HC emissions were down to about 1/2 the standard (in italics), and CO was down to 1/3 the standard. Forgot what NOX ended up as.
P.S. - I get that hissing too, I suppose I'll have to check my vents now. It didn't keep me from passing emissions though, not after that Seafoam stuff.
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Re: Failed Smog – New Engine?
Are you seriously telling me that someone found Chevron fuel to be the cause of GM fuel injectors becoming fouled? I'm calling on that one! First of all, why would it only foul GM injectors when most injectors come from the same companies? Perhaps GM being the cheapest SOB's on the planet right now decided to use crap fuel injectors in the first place? I think that's far more likely.
Here's a challenge for ya. Take two pistons from the same engine with equal amounts of carbon build up along with some of the valves too and throw them in two different buckets/pales, one with Chevron (w/ Techron) and one without, then let them sit for a week. After one week pull them from their containers and see which has less carbon buildup still remaining. This is how I tend to clean parts. I put them in a drum full of Chevron gasoline one week and pull them out the next. Most of the time they don't require much more than a good rinse with soapy water then fresh water, especially if it's circulated while it sits.
To add to all of this, I used to work for a machine shop that repaired several types of pumps for the Chevron refinery in Richmond California, and I've personally witnessed the power of their gasoline through much of the testing that takes place on site. I even used my Camaro as a guinea pig by using one of our bore scopes to check out my cylinders before using Chevron (I used to be a die hard 76 guy) then after 3000 miles of using Chevron with Techron... HUGE difference! Not only in my combustion chambers but in my carb too.
I'm sorry, but to all those who say that gasoline is gasoline and that all gasolines are essentially the same, well it's just like saying that all cylinder heads are essentially the same, or that all motor oils are essentially the same... We all know how stupid either of those statements are!
Trust me, use Chevron, thank me later... or don't and wish you had. Pay a tiny bit more now or potentially pay alot more later, which would you rather do?
- Joel
Here's a challenge for ya. Take two pistons from the same engine with equal amounts of carbon build up along with some of the valves too and throw them in two different buckets/pales, one with Chevron (w/ Techron) and one without, then let them sit for a week. After one week pull them from their containers and see which has less carbon buildup still remaining. This is how I tend to clean parts. I put them in a drum full of Chevron gasoline one week and pull them out the next. Most of the time they don't require much more than a good rinse with soapy water then fresh water, especially if it's circulated while it sits.
To add to all of this, I used to work for a machine shop that repaired several types of pumps for the Chevron refinery in Richmond California, and I've personally witnessed the power of their gasoline through much of the testing that takes place on site. I even used my Camaro as a guinea pig by using one of our bore scopes to check out my cylinders before using Chevron (I used to be a die hard 76 guy) then after 3000 miles of using Chevron with Techron... HUGE difference! Not only in my combustion chambers but in my carb too.
I'm sorry, but to all those who say that gasoline is gasoline and that all gasolines are essentially the same, well it's just like saying that all cylinder heads are essentially the same, or that all motor oils are essentially the same... We all know how stupid either of those statements are!
Trust me, use Chevron, thank me later... or don't and wish you had. Pay a tiny bit more now or potentially pay alot more later, which would you rather do?
- Joel
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Re: Failed Smog – New Engine?
warm the car up to op temp and put your hand over the tailpipe
if it feels cool to the touch then you have your preasure too high
adjust untill it feels hot
if it feels cool to the touch then you have your preasure too high
adjust untill it feels hot
#15
Re: Failed Smog – New Engine?
Okay, you will still fail if you have a vacuum leak but you failed because your NOx levels are too high. This is usually a case of the combustion chamber running too hot. Many things can cause this though, and here's a nice related read for ya... http://www.aa1car.com/library/2000/ic60032.htm
I agree, turning down the FP will probably help a fair bit, but try this too...
Go down to your local Napa Auto or other such location, and pick up one bottle of Seafoam and one bottle of CRC's G2P (Guaranteed to Pass). Next make sure you've got about 1 liter (2 bottles) or 32 oz of distilled water.
Start by bringing the engine up to operating temp, then adjust the idle to a consistent 2000-2500 rpm. Next locate vacuum source at the throttle body. Make sure it's one you can safely remove, and that you have spare tubing the same diameter as. Attach the spare vacuum line to the vacuum port keeping your thumb on the other end of the line to act as a cap. Slip your thumb off the end of the line just a bit producing a small vacuum leak and SLOWLY pour the water into the line... The engine might bog down a bit, if it does just stop pouring for a second and replace your thumb as the cap till the revs come back up, then continue as you were maybe poring a bit slower.
Once you are done with the water continue on to the Seafoam.
Follow the directions on the bottle of Seafom, but the poring technique is the same as with the water. Don't be surprised if there is alot of white smoke coming from your tail pipe during this whole process, that's normal and nothing to worry about, unless your neighbors don't like you
After you've completed these two tasks be sure to reconnect your vacuum line properly, replace it if necessary.
Next comes the G2P! Drive to your nearest Chevron station (Yes, Chevron and only Chevron!) and before filling up with the manufacturer recommended octane level, pour in the full bottle of CRC's G2P. Now it's time to drive... and drive and drive and drive You want to run the tank till it's on "E" then fill up at Chevron once again before going back to get tested. Your NOx levels will be MUCH lower this time!
Out of curiosity, what fuel do you use? Not what octane but what brand? If it's anything other than Chevron then guess what, now you're a Chevron man and everything else is Trust me, your failing smog is most likely due to too high of a fuel pressure and poor quality gasoline. Still, just in case, it'd be a good idea to replace the EGR valve as insurance.
I'll re post if I can think of anything else that might help... Actually, if your O2 sensor is old you might want to replace that too, maybe even your cat.
- Joel
I agree, turning down the FP will probably help a fair bit, but try this too...
Go down to your local Napa Auto or other such location, and pick up one bottle of Seafoam and one bottle of CRC's G2P (Guaranteed to Pass). Next make sure you've got about 1 liter (2 bottles) or 32 oz of distilled water.
Start by bringing the engine up to operating temp, then adjust the idle to a consistent 2000-2500 rpm. Next locate vacuum source at the throttle body. Make sure it's one you can safely remove, and that you have spare tubing the same diameter as. Attach the spare vacuum line to the vacuum port keeping your thumb on the other end of the line to act as a cap. Slip your thumb off the end of the line just a bit producing a small vacuum leak and SLOWLY pour the water into the line... The engine might bog down a bit, if it does just stop pouring for a second and replace your thumb as the cap till the revs come back up, then continue as you were maybe poring a bit slower.
Once you are done with the water continue on to the Seafoam.
Follow the directions on the bottle of Seafom, but the poring technique is the same as with the water. Don't be surprised if there is alot of white smoke coming from your tail pipe during this whole process, that's normal and nothing to worry about, unless your neighbors don't like you
After you've completed these two tasks be sure to reconnect your vacuum line properly, replace it if necessary.
Next comes the G2P! Drive to your nearest Chevron station (Yes, Chevron and only Chevron!) and before filling up with the manufacturer recommended octane level, pour in the full bottle of CRC's G2P. Now it's time to drive... and drive and drive and drive You want to run the tank till it's on "E" then fill up at Chevron once again before going back to get tested. Your NOx levels will be MUCH lower this time!
Out of curiosity, what fuel do you use? Not what octane but what brand? If it's anything other than Chevron then guess what, now you're a Chevron man and everything else is Trust me, your failing smog is most likely due to too high of a fuel pressure and poor quality gasoline. Still, just in case, it'd be a good idea to replace the EGR valve as insurance.
I'll re post if I can think of anything else that might help... Actually, if your O2 sensor is old you might want to replace that too, maybe even your cat.
- Joel
thanks for the link! it is great reading. I printed the article so I can add it to the literature I already have.
Some thing else I may have over looked which addresses your question. Gas is about 6 months old (I think Unocal always 91 octane) and oil is about 4 years old because I have driven the car only 1k in the 4 years. I guess to compound the problem, the gas could make a difference but will old oil matter? I'll try Seafoam, and G2P. As I mentioned to Kevin (on a sepearte email) I looked back through 10 years of smog records and it seems the NOX increased greatly as I increased the fuel pressure.
So, looking through your recommendations, just so I know I'm understanding, first I should probably fill my tank with "new" gas run 32oz of water through the engine, then do the same with Seafoam and lastly add the G2P, drive until empty, then refill and attempt the smog test?
What exactly is the water, Seafoam and G2P doing and is there a chance it may harm my engine?
By the way, I'm gonna replace the cats with Carsound/Magnaflow highflow brand whether I pass or not. I would like to do the smog before the cats (dual cats) and maybe after to compare the readings. A little more money but I'm ok with that as I can write it off to a learning experience.
----------
Last edited by Oscar; 12-21-2007 at 01:05 PM. Reason: Automerged Doublepost
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Re: Failed Smog – New Engine?
Some thing else I may have over looked which addresses your question. Gas is about 6 months old (I think Unocal always 91 octane) and oil is about 4 years old because I have driven the car only 1k in the 4 years. I guess to compound the problem, the gas could make a difference but will old oil matter? I'll try Seafoam, and G2P. As I mentioned to Kevin (on a sepearte email) I looked back through 10 years of smog records and it seems the NOX increased greatly as I increased the fuel pressure.
So, looking through your recommendations, just so I know I'm understanding, first I should probably fill my tank with "new" gas run 32oz of water through the engine, then do the same with Seafoam and lastly add the G2P, drive until empty, then refill and attempt the smog test?
What exactly is the water, Seafoam and G2P doing and is there a chance it may harm my engine?
So, looking through your recommendations, just so I know I'm understanding, first I should probably fill my tank with "new" gas run 32oz of water through the engine, then do the same with Seafoam and lastly add the G2P, drive until empty, then refill and attempt the smog test?
What exactly is the water, Seafoam and G2P doing and is there a chance it may harm my engine?
No, no chance of hurting the engine. And to answer your question, going from water to Seafoam then to G2P is like doing a three stage cleaning. First the water breaks up the easier to remove carbon in the cylinders and helps to soften up the harder to remove stuff. Next the Seafoam comes in and chemically breaks up and eliminates most of that which the water did not, including much of the buildup on the backs of the valves, and further readies the hardest to remove stuff for the G2P. The remaining crap to be removed takes time and here's where the G2P comes in. It cleans up nearly all, if not all of the remaining carbon build up slowly, and will also clean out your fuel system and injectors.
You know, it also sounds to me like you're just plain not driving this thing often enough. Get out there and enjoy the ride my friend, that's what it was designed for!
- Joel
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Re: Failed Smog – New Engine?
Are you seriously telling me that someone found Chevron fuel to be the cause of GM fuel injectors becoming fouled? I'm calling on that one! First of all, why would it only foul GM injectors when most injectors come from the same companies? Perhaps GM being the cheapest SOB's on the planet right now decided to use crap fuel injectors in the first place? I think that's far more likely.
- Joel
- Joel
Oscar, Magnaflow cats are one of the best. We use them exclusively because my dad has been friends with the owner since the 80's when he started the company.
#18
Re: Failed Smog – New Engine?
Thanks for the help, I'm picking my car up tomorrow and will focus on it through the holidays since I'm off till after new years.
#19
Re: Failed Smog – New Engine?
No, I'm simply saying I remember reading back in 2000 or 2001 all over the LS1 car and truck forums across the country that injectors were failing regularly. The owners of the cars used Chevron gas exclusively. Draw your own conclusion. Nothing official was ever decided that I can remember.
Oscar, Magnaflow cats are one of the best. We use them exclusively because my dad has been friends with the owner since the 80's when he started the company.
Oscar, Magnaflow cats are one of the best. We use them exclusively because my dad has been friends with the owner since the 80's when he started the company.
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Re: Failed Smog – New Engine?
get that vacuum leak checked out and try seafoaming your car twice thoroughly, THEN replace O2 sensors, and cats, and if you still didnt pass, something is wrong. If your modified a lot then a good custom tune will go a long way also.
#21
Re: Failed Smog – New Engine?
how can you tell him to lower his FP without asking him what his BLM's are ??
Why are you changing a motor due to failed emissions ?
How can anyone give advice with out seeing the test results?
and yes, that vaccume leak is a problem.
Why are you changing a motor due to failed emissions ?
How can anyone give advice with out seeing the test results?
and yes, that vaccume leak is a problem.
#22
Re: Failed Smog – New Engine?
I have 118,000 miles. I'm just wondering weather I should just go ahead and get a new block since I will be keeping the for ever.
So you think that the vacuum leak related to the a/c vents is a problem? Can it affect the EGR system?
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Re: Failed Smog – New Engine?
Keep the engine just tune it properly and start driving it!
The vacuum leak may or may not effect the EGR but even if it doesn't it will fail smog due to the leak alone.
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Re: Failed Smog – New Engine?
the blur, he has another thread on this & has posted what it did on the test & also the mods he has done.
Oscar, 118,000 miles is nothing if it has been taken care of. my motor has over 200,000 on it & runs fine & passed its last emissions test with no problem.
if it runs right & doesn't smoke and your not looking for more power, i don't see a reason for a new motor, unless you just want one
the BLM stands for Block Learn Multiplier, its one of the fuel trims.
there are 2 fuel trims, BLM which is long term trim & the integrator which is the short term trim. these can tell you if the ECM is commanding the motor to run rich or lean.
Oscar, 118,000 miles is nothing if it has been taken care of. my motor has over 200,000 on it & runs fine & passed its last emissions test with no problem.
if it runs right & doesn't smoke and your not looking for more power, i don't see a reason for a new motor, unless you just want one
the BLM stands for Block Learn Multiplier, its one of the fuel trims.
there are 2 fuel trims, BLM which is long term trim & the integrator which is the short term trim. these can tell you if the ECM is commanding the motor to run rich or lean.
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