Stormshadow GTA

i was reading in the new HPP and they said early tpi engines can get 20 25 horse just by changing the chip.Because they didn't have the obd or odb what ever the emmissions **** is.I seriously question this but can anyone give hp gains from various chips

Dan87IROC-Z

I am sure that some chips are worth 20-25 horsepower. The Performance Resource Chip I bought gave me a .25 reduction on my 1/4 ETs on basicly a stock motor, so I am sure 25hp is realistic.

------------------
1987 Chevy Camaro IROC-Z
L98 TPI 350 (5.7L)
TH 700R-4 Transmission
Borg Warner 7.75" 9 Bolt Rear End

Current Mods: LT4 HOT Cam, Comp Cams 1.52:1 Roller Rocker Arms, Edelbrock TES 1 5/8" Headers, Hooker 3" Aerochamber Cat-Back System, Performance Resource Chip, Accel Ignition Coil, Cap, Rotor, 8.8mm Wires, K&N Filters, JET TPI Air Foil, All Free Mods, Falken ZIEX Z-Rated Tires.

Best ET (w/o LT4 cam): 14.32 @ 97.7mph
(corrected for elevation)

Soon to Come: 7.625" 10 Bolt with 3.42s and Accel TPI Intake Base

IROCZ88

www.fastchip.com

BTS88IROC

StormShadow,

I'm not sure I would believe that. I am just getting into prom burning and most aftermarket chips don't do much except change the spark table a little and maybe change the TC lockup.

I'm sure Glenn and others who know much more about Proms could tell you the same. Post this on the DIY PROM board and see what they say.

Grim Reaper

I doubt it. I have done a lot of tweaking with my eprom to control knock retard, which is the biggest killer of power on a basically stock engine.

The problem with the stock eprom is it is generally too rich and very conservative in how it handles spark advance. Most of the "off-the-shelf" eproms add even MORE fuel and do very little in terms of spark advance and NOTHING to control knock retard.

On a Speed Density car, there is a hidden retard called "Octane Retard" which NO ONE addresses. This yanks 4* of spark retard from your spark advance and you never recover it until you restart your engine.

The ONLY way you will ever achieve the maximum potential of your basically stock engine is to burn your own eprom. You probably won't gain 25 HP from its rated max output: but you will gain the 25 HP that you lost.

With an aftermarket eprom, you might get 10 HP back. You really have to tweak the eprom for your own car to get the maximum potential from it - which NO custom eprom written by someone who has not "tuned" your car can accomplish.

I could probably give my BIN (which I won't) which is designed around a basically stock L98 SD engine and it would perform better than any custom eprom you could buy: but it STILL would not be optimal for your car. You might gain 15 HP that your losing.

As for gas mileage, I can get about 15-20% increase by optimizing the Highway Mode and Highway Mode Spark Advance. But again, it would need to be optimized to YOUR car to get the most fuel economy. If I just tossed it to someone with a similar engine to mine, they may gain 10%.

The key is this, burning your own eprom makes it SPECIFIC to your EXACT engine. And you can only do that if you tweak it for YOUR engine.

Kyle F

I am Glad that Glen knows all of this. I get so sick f all these chip manufacturers claimng this B.S.
Thanks Glen for explaining it to everyone.

------------------
89 Trans Am Turbo 3.8L All stock 43,000 miles #1053 of 1555

Past Thirdgen:
86 Trans Am w/ built 355TPI with SLP goodies and too much other stuff to List. One sweet *** car, wish i never had to sale it, but who would for a 89 Turbo Trans Am w/ Low miles?

STOCKROC

I dont know about most of the chips out there, but when I used a peformance resource chip on my stock 305 wow!! That chip was awesome. I would defentialy believe 25hp is possible. Before the chip i race a friend of mine who beat be rather easy at least 4 car links. After the chip swap I ran dead even with him.

------------------
1989 Irocz
350 T-5

TRAXION

I know that I don't need to say this but ... Glenn is on the money

Tim

------------------
TRAXION's 1990 IROC-Z
Best Time = 12.244 @ 112.51mph (1.778 60' / 7.819@88.32mph in the 1/8)
All Natural. No Force. No Drugs. Stock Bottom End. Stock Body Panels.
Gunning for NA 11's with bigger cam, bigger stall, and bigger exhaust.
-=ICON Motorsports=-
Moderator: PROM board at thirdgen.org

Guest

I doubt it too.


btw, I am the one that prodded Glenn into chips, I was always chiming in how the off the shelf chips changed basically nothing, and now look where he's at

Matt87GTA

I don't need it since mine is MAF, but why not share the BIN?? If I had info on anything to help my fellow F-body brothers kick some a$$, I'd share it!! We're all on the same team here Glenn , and this whole 'forcing people to burn their own PROM's' when you say yourself that yours would "be better than any custom eprom you could buy" attitude, is extremely uncalled for. So you give the guy your BIN. Than he can tweak it from there for "his car" to get that totally optimized EEPROM BIN that is so desirable and everybody is happy. That would save him a lot of F'in around in the beginning and maybe he would be happy with the 10% gian in performance and never even change the BIN! I mean, not everybody here has the time or the desire to become expert TPI tuners or EEPROM burners, but everybody here has the same goal - to make their F-body perform as good as their wallet and time allows.

I don't mean to come across coarse here, nor do I mean to belittle your EEPROM burning abilities and what they're worth, but I just think we all can help each other through this site and, with the right attitude, everybody can learn from each other - even the experts!!

Laterzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz

Bob Wooten

Matt,

there are a LARGE number of factors that go into tuning a bin for a car (heads, cam, exh, runners, plenum etc), asking for anyone to give anyone else thier bin is most likely not going to get them any further along than if they were to buy the over the counter "super duper chip". this is for the exact same reson that very few cars are going to realize this mythical 25 or 35 hp gain. all that is done to these bins is add a little gas & "recommend" more like require that you run a colder stat. truth be told, the cooler stat is what gets you the gain. it tricks the ECM into adding more fuel.

going from a stock prom to the "super duper prom" is going to get X results. going to Glen's, or Trax's or my bin is going to get Y results, & what this car wants is Z results (read here car wants, not tuner wants). I think that the point that glenn is trying to make is that there is no magic bullet. it is hard work. if you dont have the time for the tuning gig, then pay someone to chassis dyno the car & burn you a prom. if you dont have the $ for that, then buy the off the shelf chip & settle for the small gain that you are going to get with it.

this is no different than any other induction system. every car is going to be a bit different than every other one. Yes, Glenn probably could have been a bit more tactful, or you could have been a little less sensitive. if you dont know the big picture, you can not make an educated choice. this comes right back around to what you said (& you hit it right on the head), this is why we are here, to lean & to help each other out.

Sorry for going on, but this is a complex issue, that is why there is not magic bullet or magic prom. there are NO free lunches.

my2c
BW


------------------
Bob Wooten
71 Camaro, 91 EFI
r71chevy@earthlink.net
www.r71camaro.homestead.com

Grim Reaper

Matt, if I give you MY PROM and you motor goes "south", then I face a lawsuit. My eprom is burnt SPECIFICALLY to my engine and not yours. THIS is what I'm trying to get you guys to understand, ONLY YOU can make the perfect eprom for your car.

There is SO MANY unique things to your engine like how it is detecting knock retard, the number one problem, that it involves a lot of "hands on personal tuning". I can only "advise", I cannot personally tune. Plus I have a lot of personal committments in my own life...guess how many e-mails I get in a day?

So I kind of follow what the Bible says "I give you a fish, you eat for a day. I teach you to fish, you eat for the rest of your life".

Thanks for your remarks.

Matt87GTA

My point is that if someone has a BIN that is better than an off the shelf PROM for a 19XX F-body, they could give it to the guy out there that needs a PROM for his 19XX F-body with the same basic setup for the price of the chip itself, a SMALL fee for burning it, and some shipping if needed.

I completely understand that this is not the best way to get the full performance out of his car. But if the guy doesn't have the time or desire to get into burning EEPROMS, and the BIN that one of us THIRDGEN members is better than the off the shelf one and is waaayyyyyyyy cheaper, everybody should be happy!!!??

The price of PROMs for F-bodies is ridiculous no matter what way you do it (time or $$$). Look at the GN/T-type/TTAs - those guys sell chips to each other for under $20!!!!!!! And they don't all have the exact same setups but they all get great results from these 'non-custom' burned EEPROMS (You should see the turbo cars that my friends own......they are insane ). Plus, if they don't like the one they get, it isn't like they spent a week on it or sacrificed their first born male for it!!

I dunno. I just want an end to this predicament for all of us . What kind of a solution do you guys think would be the most feasible? Imagine the pool of EEPROM BINs we could assemble!! I am very interrested in what you guys think we can do.

Laterzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz

[This message has been edited by Matt87GTA (edited April 13, 2001).]

Grim Reaper

Couple of problems because I've been there:

1) I am here to help and advise with learning how to burn their own eproms. I am not a business. I have a regular job, a family, my own projects and committments. I barely have enough time to do HALF the things I want to. Why should I take on more work?

2) If anything goes wrong (even if happens a year later), the first person they blame is ME. All of the sudden EVERYTHING that might possibly be related to the eprom they start to contact me and make it my problem. In fact, even if it isn't related to the eprom, they will try and make it my problem. Sorry, but the United States is too "Lawsuit Happy". Don't need the hassles.

3) You are already demonstrating the principle reason I don't do this; there is a large "expectation gap and misconception" of what an eprom does and does not do. You've completely missed what Bob and I have been trying to say, that for the eprom to be its most effective it has to be burnt to YOUR CAR. My car's eprom is setup to run 17.6:1 on the Highway with 47* spark advance. This gives me almost 30 US mpg while I retain ALL of my performance. However, this setting may very well toast your motor over prolonged use because YOUR engine is not MY engine, in spite of your and my motor having identical specifications. Your engine may be tired, burn/leak oil, have a weak injector...all which can make it inconceivable to run the same as I do with my motor.

4) You say "its helping other third genners"; well the first person that has to help is you have to help yourself. It is not my responsibility to burn an eprom for every person who happens to be a member of www.thirdgen.org. If a person isn't even willing to try Prom Burning (all it is some reading to start and then getting the equipment to play with it), then why should I spend the time and effort to burn them an eprom...there's that "expectation gap again".

5) People think they get a "memcal" or a "piggy-back carrier" like the manufacturers. (Here's that expectation gap again). They don't realize that they will get "just an eprom" (which I don't happen to have lying around my house BTW) and different cars take different types. Then they have to unsolder/resolder the eprom from their GM memcal and replace it with a new one. I seriously doubt that most of the people that are unwilling to even try PROM Burning are able to solder fine enough to replace the eprom. Alternatively, they would have to send their GM memcal to me (I live in Canada and that poses problems with Canada Customs...they charge me taxes and duty when this comes across the border). By sending it courier costs a lot of money; by sending it by mail takes a long time. Are you prepared to wait 4 weeks to get your memcal back? Without your memcal, your car won't run.

The only real effective way to do it is for you to have all the equipment to read and rewrite the BIN on the memcal along with getting a UV Eraser (unless you wish to solder a Flash Prom in place of the Eprom). Well, since you have all the equipment then you may as well learn how to do it then.

If you take the time to read Traxion's article on "Introduction to Prom Burning" (link is on the top of the DIY PROM board and it explains the different methods of getting a modified BIN into your eprom) you will see that its not a simple case of me just mailing you an new eprom and you "plug it in and drive away". You either need a ZIF socket soldered into your GM memcal to allow you to install/remove eproms easily, use a "piggy back carrier" like Hypertech, ADS, Jet give you and replace the eprom on that (most don't solder it in) or your reprogram directly onto the GM memcal.

I personally use a combination of reprogramming my GM memcal AND a "piggy back carrier" from an old ADS carrier. I have a Flash Prom installed on the ADS carrier that I reprogram with all my "test bins" and then I have a "known good BIN" reprogrammed onto my GM memcal for "backup purposes" in case the carrier goes bad or the BIN that I programmed onto my ADS carrier had a serious mistake (and it happens) so my car doesn't get stranded.

Matt87GTA

Ok - here we go.

#1 - I do not mean that YOU personally should undertake this effort on your own. I said WE - as in the web site members that can do this.

#2 - My idea is a BIN Catalog Site - kinda like an FTP site or something. It could contain all the pertinant information of the cars setup that it was for. We could put a disclaimer on the "BIN Catalog Site" so that no such legal action could be taken and we could explain that this is meerly a cheap alternative to the other methods of getting a custom PROM and that these BIN's are 'use at your own risk'. I think a lot of us would feel confident TRYING a BIN that is from a car with a VERY similar setup from a reputable source - I would .

#3 - No I have not missed your point. I completely understand your point and I agree that this method of 'ballparking' an EPROM for your car is not the proper way to find the BEST EPROM - but you could get one that is better than an off-the-shelf aftermarket EPROM for a waaayyyyyy cheaper price. And that is what I suspect most of us are after. Keep in mind that NOBODY EVER WANTED OR SET OUT TO BECOME, AN EXPERT EPROM PROGRAMMER!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! They just wanted their car to run better and have better performance and found that programming their EPROM is a great way to do this.

#4 - I agree - the PROM carrier issue would have to be resolved. But i am willing to bet that there are electronics manufacturers that either have something that would work (Where do the aftermarket companies get theirs??????) or could design something that could be used by examining a stock one. I dunno - maybe this is all too much, but THERE HAS TO BE a better way than what is available right now (see my other comments about time and $$ above)!!

#5 - Yes, I know the car won't run without the EPROM. The guy requesting the new EPROM must have some kind of an EPROM at home that came on the car and he will just have to deal with the one he has until the new one gets there. This is no different than your 'backup' EPROM that you keep around for emergencies except he won't have the new one there yet. I propose having a US and a Canadian representative that burns/assembles the EPROMs (this person would likely end up making a decent amount of money for fairly easy work - just burn the EPROM, assemble it onto the proper carrier, ship it), to support both countries' needs to alleviate the shipping SNAFU(s).

My idea is not for the guy out there that knows a lot about the electronics used on these cars, nor is it for the guy out there that has the time and money to spend on the equipment and dedication to finding the 'Golden EPROM' for their car. (BTW - I am a fully trained GM Technician and I know how these systems work quite well so this is not for me personally - I am just tryin to help!! ) People in those situations should definately get into burning their own EPROM's. This is for the average enthusiast that is interested in getting a BETTER EPROM (not necessarily THE BEST) for his car with the minimal work and time investment. I think if you give a guy the option of two EPROM's; one requires $200 (US) and a two week session of burning and reburning an EPROM that results in a 15hp gain and another EPROM that he can get for $30 (US) in less than a week and get a 10hp gain, The average enthusiast that i am talking about would opt for the cheaper one.

I bring this entire discussion up because I am disgusted to see the current options that are available for us (V8 Thirdgenners that is - God knows the TTA guys get their EPROMs for cheap as hell) when it comes to Performance EPROMs - AREN'T YOU???? :EEK: The current options are both far too costly when it comes to time and/or money to me.

"....There's got to be a bet-ter way.......................a better way........yeah,yeah......."

Laterzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz



[This message has been edited by Matt87GTA (edited April 15, 2001).]

Vader

And now, back to the original question posted in the thread....

The early TPI PROMs and ECMs DID in fact have some OBD restrictions, but they couldn't meet the standards. That is why the Delco digital MAF on V-8 TPIs died in mid-1985, and the 8-bit 1226870 ECM was dumped in favor of the 16-bit 1227165 ECM with the higher baud rates.

Due to the crunch to assemble an emissions-legal fuel system for the just-released TPI engines, and the fact that the Delco Electronics guys couldn't manage all the projects they had underway, GM Powertrain enlisted Bosch to help build a system that would fit the car. Delco Electronics (now Delphi) did the ECM, and Bosch did the MAF and assorted other systems.

For that reason, the earlier PROMs cannot be used in the 1985½ and later TPI systems. The early PROM was also designed for the Delco digital MAF, not the Bosch analog MAF, and the digital system required a piggyback MAF module for the older ECM to even communicate with it. The older ECM was too slow to effectively monitor and manage all necessary engine systems, and the design was relegated to the speed-density duty on 2.8L V-6 engines - just what it was originally designed to do. It died a lingering death in 1986, when Delco Electronics pulled their heads out of the dark rectal recesses and saw the light of day for the first time in three years.

That completes today's history lesson.

------------------
Later,
Vader
------------------
"What a Day..."
Adobe Acrobat Reader

Grim Reaper

Matt, the fact is, you are basically saying that because someone is too lazy to learn about eprom burning that they should expect people to do this for them for some piddly amount of money. It won't happen. In fact, it got so tiresome with people whining for "free eproms", that they are banned on the DIY PROM board. You either have to learn to do it, or go out and buy one.

Us DIY PROM guys don't mind helping to teach you how to burn your eproms. But you shouldn't expect people to do this for you for basically nothing. What you are basically asking is similar to asking your neighbor to help you with your car, bring the tools, bring the beer and then you just sit down and let him do all the work while you drink the beer.

There ARE directories available at DIY PROM that contains a lot of BINs that people have submitted, but no one (except those too lazy or the "newbies") bother with it. All those people that take to time to learn to burn their own eproms know that for an optimal eprom, they have to do it themselves. Hence, this directory is seldom used except to get a "starting point". Thus, most of the BINs are stock GM from a particular car. But, if someone wishes to submit a BIN for a particular set of modifications, they are free to submit them if they want to.

Grim Reaper

I should add, that if you wish to burn these eproms for people for $30.00, then feel free to do it. In fact, I am sure the Classifieds would be happy to have someone to do this for a very reasonable price.

But, I think you are going to find that it is not quite the easy money that you are thinking it is. And do be aware that you do face a potential lawsuit if something goes wrong. And eventually, it will and you'll wonder why in the hell you ever did this.

Matt87GTA

First off, if a disclaimer is present at the site, a lawsuit is impossible to bring on that sites product.

Second, if a site already exists that has BINs for people to use - than nevermind because that is my whole idea. I cannot believe that nobody takes advantage of this.

Third, I think you overestimate the average enthusiast's need for an EPROM. I know about 15 different third gen F-body owners that ALWAYS tell me about how insanely priced the EPROMs are for our cars. They tell me that they would be happy with an 'off-the-shelf' EPROM if it was a lot cheaper and a little bit more effective ($500 from TPIS??????). They never tell me that they wish they could have an EPROM that eeks out every last tenth of a hp from their engines - just a modest gain or better driveability with their setup. I think these people represent the vast majority of F-body owners and they are not necessarily lazy. They may just not have the knowledge and/or abilities to even be let near a toolbox much less start burning an EPROM!!

Anyways..................this subject has become tiresome for me and you seem to think that every third gen owner MUST become an expert EPROM burner just to get an EPROM that is worth their time to install it. I just think a better way is available and we should try to make it happen.

BlueZ89

I am with Matt on this one. Glen your too **** and conceeded about what you know about PROM burning and thus selfish. Share what you leared or get off the damn board and then see who really cares about some nerd sitting in front of a computer and burning 30 chip a day just to get 1mpg more out of his car. Make what you learned available to all of us otherwise your really not a member of this board just some idiot posting about how good he is at PROM burning. Share or shut up!!

Grim Reaper

Matt, please do not say things I never said. Read my first post at the very beginning of this board, and I said "I doubt an eprom will give 20-25 HP on a basically stock engine"...and then stated what the general problem is ... knock retard.

Basically, the only reason I am responding to all this is because you basically flamed me at the start because I said I wouldn't give my BIN, (for all the other reasons I've stated above). And you are still kind of flaming me.

PLEASE, do some research, READ Traxion's article on "PROM Burning" and do a little reading of the old posts on the DIY PROM board. You will find where those directories are and if you wish to submit a custom BIN for people to use, please do.

As for PROM burning, the money you save in gasoline by invoking Highway Mode EASILY pays for all the equipment etc in less than a year.

BTW, I have a problem with my car. Can you come over, bring your tools and a case of beer?

TRAXION

Man - I wish I would have kept tabs on this subject sooner ....

My short response: bwahahahah ahahahaha.
My long response: EPROM programming involves significant Time, Research, Effort, Frustration, Thought, Smarts, Intuition, Dedication, and Equipment (hardware, software, etc). Not too long ago YOU HAD TO BUY A PROM FROM A PROM PROGRAMMER. Not too long ago YOU HAD TO GET RAPED OF YOUR HARD EARNED $$$$ BY THOSE PROM PROGRAMMERS. That no longer needs to happen. There are articles, groups, mailing lists, and message boards to help out a newbie PROM programmer. I wrote an excellent article on getting an interested person started on this task. Check it out HERE. The problem is ... its never enough. People always want the easy way out. Well, that won't happen. Why? Read all of Glenn's comments above. He stated everything and I am not about to reiiterate what he said ... he said it perfectly.

What ever happened to working for what you want? Now its just cry, cry, cry, whine, whine, whine. Yea, I know I'm being harsh. But, I've seen the same thing over and over and over. We have done a darn good job of opening up the EPROM world to you guys and its never enough. Now you want us to give you BINs. Whatever. When does it end? Put in some serious effort and I can guarantee you that you will get more out of it then you will ever realize .... from personal satisfaction to some serious help via those of us who have been doing it for awhile. But, without effort you get nothing. That's just how it is. At least we are truly willing and able to help you. You just need to put in the effort. Then, once you get 'up to par' on all of this stuff ... please feel free to put up a BIN site and give away BINs. At that same time you will also experience most of the negative aspects that Glenn and Bob described so well.

Tim


------------------
TRAXION's 1990 IROC-Z
Best Time = 12.244 @ 112.51mph (1.778 60' / 7.819@88.32mph in the 1/8)
All Natural. No Force. No Drugs. Stock Bottom End. Stock Body Panels.
Gunning for NA 11's with bigger cam, bigger stall, and bigger exhaust.
-=ICON Motorsports=-
Moderator: PROM board at thirdgen.org

Grim Reaper

Blue, have you ever even looked at the DIY PROM Board? I am EXTREMELY willing to tell people where the codes are and where to find them. What more do want me to do? At some point you must take the initiative yourself. Don't expect the world to be handed to you on a Silver Platter.

There is no free lunch in this world. I am quite prepared to help you "make your hamburgers", but don't expect me to cook it for you too. If I do, then I get to eat it.

Kevin G

I can garuntee you that Glen has shared PLENTY of his knowledge on this board, which is about a million times more than you last worthless post. I am very surprised at the restraint he is using to some of these ridiculous posts directed at him negatively.

There will not be a BIN list on this message board. Too many legal problems, and it was decided long ago. End of story.

There is plenty of info here and other resources for anyone with the desire to do it on thier own. If you think these guys who are helping out constantly here are somehow stuck up, then feel free to buy your own damn chips. Pathetic.

Kevin G

Moving this post to the PROM board..

Merry X-Mas Tim You can have this damn post.

F22Raptor

I can see where both sides are coming from:
On one hand, why not share the bins and let the person be responsible for his/her actions. If you break it, then you screwed yourself.
On the other hand, liability can hold those who know back. Besides, it takes a lot of time and effort to make a real good bin and it would be way too easy to just give it up. We, newbies should show a little more motivation and who knows, maybe we'll get what we want one day.
Rick