Slow Iroc

We have all seen mniram vs superram vs LTR debates and the posts make me want to puke, it seems like eveyrone asks every 3 days about it. BUT this hasn't been addressed...what would you do???


Okay, that's it, I'm sick of only be able to wind my motor out to like 4600RPM before it chokes, so here's the question, which combination would you go with.

Ramjet, L31 Vortec heads, LT4 Hot cam for $2100
or
Miniram, unknown heads, LT4 hot cam for $1500 (Heads unknown, maybe sportsman 2's or 492 double humps.)

Looking for good power up to about 6500 RPM, maybe a little more...The Miniram would be easier, but the Ramjet's PCM isn't controlled by an O2 sensor What would you do?

Mark_ZZ3

The MiniRam2 is by far the best choice for the higher RPM range. But to take advantage of it, you will need to get a PROM. The RamJet is a bit unknown and the PCM is not easily updated (at least not yet).

If you do buy heads, get new ones. 492's were good ... 30 years ago! There have been signifigant improvements in cylinder head design. Of course if you already have them, then I can see the cost perspective.

As far as a stock base running out at 4600 ... It has more to do with it that just the base. Sure the base is a restriction, but there are many other areas. My setup rev's easily in the 5000 range with no feeling of dropping off. One day I may upgrade the base, but it is not top of the list.

I'd put my money into a good set of heads that compliment a TPI's torque. A miniram would show more benifits with a cylinder head different than one suited for a TPI. A mini ram would like a bigger intake port than a standard TPI setup IMO.

Mark.

Slow Iroc

Well actually, the 492's would be right off the Gm dealership shelf, crispy brand new. However, I will continue to look for a budget head, the one thing I know is that I'm not going to F around with LTR's or a superram for torques sake....the LT1/LT4 dosen't have a problem with torque... However, are you sure that the miniram would be that superior to the Ramjet up to about 6500 RPM? I'm not running an 8 grand drag motor here...just something that will pull like an SOB instead of trying to push the car through wimpy gears. 5 grand out of 5.7L without power drop off from a stock intake? You must have one of the very best built motors ever in GM's history. The 350 peaks at 4600 RPM, and is bad by 5 g's on everything else I have seen (Yes even cars with larger cams/better heads).

jmd

iTrader: (4)

WHY do people continually insist on using the Ram-Jet PCM & harness? Seriously. Other than splicing the TPS, what else is there? Delete EGR from your PROM either way...

Mark_ZZ3

The 492 "turbo" head was designed in the late 60's and offered for sale over the counter around 1970. So yes the design is near 30 years old. That was my point. Yes you can buy them new, but you can buy much better technology. The vortec heads kick some serious a** below 0.400" lift.

Yes a "stock" 350 peaks at 4600'ish. I should have elaborated. I run a stock base and stock runners, however the entrance and exit's have been cleaned up. My upper plenum is ported, 52MM TB, air foil, Edelbrock heads, ZZ3 cam, 1.6 rockers on intake, yadda yadda yadda. I am *very* impressed with my combination. The edelbrock heads (#6089 performer rpm) are an excellent match for the TPI. They only have a 170cc intake port, but flow well up to 0.500-0.600 lift area. I have not run my vehicle on an chasis dyno yet. That will confirm or deny my claims. But for sure, it does not fall flat at 4600.

I agree that the stock base seems small, but what I honestly believe is a "package" will net you more power than a few good parts. I may have a stock base, but it flows well enough for the cam and matches well for what my exhuast can do. If I put a bigger base on, I definitely would need to upgrade my exhuast. I also live at 2400ft altitude, so that has something to do with things.

You can spend alot of money and go fast, or you can spend some money and alot of time and go faster.

One thing the TPI has going is the eye candy apeal. I personally don't think there is a sweeter looking engine setup. If I wanted all out HP, I would look to for an LS1 project or else a miniram setup if I stayed with the older block.

Lots of ideas.
Mark.

Slow Iroc

Great, looks like I'll be on the phone with TPIS this afternoon then to order my miniram, lol.

Appearance is cool, I agree, however, I think running down the track faster is even more impressive, but it's individual. If one was to polish the intake, use tall chrome valve covers, coated headers, and put a little chrome here and there, in a non-***** way, then I think the MiniRam would looks pretty nice. Not massive or impressive, but it wouldn't get the nod for uglyness that the SR gets, lol.
Does anyone else have any closing statements about the RamJet vs. MiniRam debate? BTW, Vortec heads do kick *** , but the MR won't match up with them, that would be the head of choice for the RamJet route however.

RCR

There is a new Mini-Ram that has ports matching the vortec heads, if I'm not mistaken.

Slow Iroc

hummm...

okay then, guys I'm going to be using a rather lumpy cam (234/244@.050 inch lift probably, at around .540 inch lift), so what do you think? SBC Gen 1 heads or SBC Vortec heads???? Remember, 6000-6500 RPM at 350-400 inches, I'm not sure how much flow I'm going to need but I'm looking for peak power between 5300-6300 RPM. Opinions???

TRAXION

I have some big opinions here.

If you are looking for a higher RPM motor (as given by the intake and cam choice), you will need some major heads. The cylinder heads are where you are going to make your power ... this is even more important with a higher RPM motor. That 235 cam won't do squat if your heads don't match with the powerband of that cam. That means that they will need to flow A LOT of air since that cam will demand a powerband of 6500+ RPMs.

I would suggest the following....
1) GM RamJet Intake ported to a FelPro 1205. This is much cheaper than the MiniRam.
2) GM FastBurn Aluminum heads. Take the FastBurn heads to the machine shop and have them ported. In stock form they are OK but you will need a lot more if you are looking for a higher reving motor. This will be cheaper than a set of new AFR190s and IF they are ported correctly then they will flow better than stock AFR190s
3) No need to use the RamJet computer ... in fact - stay away from it. Use a '90-'92 TPI speed density setup and learn to program your own PROMs.

Tim

------------------
TRAXION's 1990 IROC-Z
Best Time = 12.244 @ 112.51mph (1.778 60' / 7.819@88.32mph in the 1/8)
All Natural. No Force. No Drugs. Stock Bottom End. Stock Body Panels.
Gunning for NA 11's with bigger cam, bigger stall, and bigger exhaust.
-=ICON Motorsports=-
Moderator: PROM board at thirdgen.org

Slow Iroc

What would you suggest for
-Wiring harness (clips fitting an ECM not made for the Ramjet?)
and
-A resource for prom burning information?

Also, the Ram Jet would be about 800 for the intake itself and the harness, I'm not sure if that include the fuel rails and throttle body.

Miniram would be, what, about $1200 including intake, fuel rail kit, and prom?

So the question really comes down to - which is better, fast burn heads from GM, or high performance aftermarket peices?

FormulaJoe

I am experimenting with the Ram Jet/Fast burn/Hot Cam combo and I am worried about the fast burn heads honestly. The flow numbers arent the best and the intake runners are huge (210cc) so that means there is not a whole lot of velocity in the intake port. But, these heads seem to consistantly make 430HP with that Hot Cam on a regular basis. There must be some other factors other than flow/velocity that contribute to HP that I am not considering.

The heads look nice out of the box. I have polished the combustion chamber and port matched the intake side and they look great.

The Ram Jet intake has a lot of meat on it to work with. I hogged mine out to fit the intake gasket and match the heads. (had to remove gobs of material, but its there to remove).

Have you guys seen the inside of the R.J. intake?? It looks like it has a lot of potential. The intake runners are like 3.5 or 4 inches long (similar to that of a mini-ram) but has a larger plenum volume.

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L98, 3.27 9-bolt, Hooker shorty headers, custom 2.5inch Y-pipe, no cat, 3inch 2chamber flowmaster, JET AFPR, Ported MAF, Best ET: 13.86 @100mph. 1.99 60'
17 inch ROH "ZS" wheels. 17x8.5(front) and 17x9.5 (rear). Firestone Firehawk SZ50s. 245/45/zr17s and 275/40/zr17s. T56

On the way... Radar Blue 89 Formula, T56, Ram Jet 430, Ram Air, 17inch ROHs.

Slow Iroc

Hmmm, does anyone have an exact numbers on the RamJet intake runners? Hey Formula, did your's come with the throttle body and fuel rails when you bought it, and does it look like a coil-cap distributor will fit in the back? Lastly, what are you doing for fuel lines, and in your opinion, do you think the RJ could support the soon to come 406 motor?

FormulaJoe

I bought the RJ crate motor, sold the vortec heads and stock cam, bought some fastburns and LT4 Hot Cam, and since I already have it, im gonna use the stock harness and computer (probably gonna get flammed for that). Yes, I have the TB, fuel rails, injectors, etc.

I havent taken a measurement, but the intake runners seem to be around 4 inches long or so.

In my personal opinion, I think the RJ intake will support a 406 if you open up the ports. Like I said, theres quite a bit of meat there and its easy to open them up.

Arizona Speed & Marine is going to do the Recal on the computer (i dont know of anyone else to do it). Ed Wright told me he cant do it.

I am making my own fuel lines/having them made. The RJ fuel fittings are on the rear of the intake and you have to have some bent up to fit.

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L98, 3.27 9-bolt, Hooker shorty headers, custom 2.5inch Y-pipe, no cat, 3inch 2chamber flowmaster, JET AFPR, Ported MAF, Best ET: 13.86 @100mph. 1.99 60'
17 inch ROH "ZS" wheels. 17x8.5(front) and 17x9.5 (rear). Firestone Firehawk SZ50s. 245/45/zr17s and 275/40/zr17s. T56

On the way... Radar Blue 89 Formula, T56, Ram Jet 430, Ram Air, 17inch ROHs.

Mark_ZZ3

Let me first say I have no interested in any one company or product. I suggested the miniram only because of it's rpm range and what I have heard about it.

With your cam selection Vortec heads are certainly out of the question. The stock springs are only good up to -.480 range and I believe you will also have to check the clearance on the retainer to guide. Vortec's flow great up to 0.400. Then so so from 0.400 to 0.500. PAst .500 there are not your best choice. IF you are looking to 6500 rpm range, best look to some bigger ports.

Edelbrock is making a new ETEC heads that use the vortec bolt pattern. If you are set on using the ramjet intake, then you have a few more heads to look at.

Mark.

FormulaJoe

Good point. Does anyone have any info on these new edelbrack heads?

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L98, 3.27 9-bolt, Hooker shorty headers, custom 2.5inch Y-pipe, no cat, 3inch 2chamber flowmaster, JET AFPR, Ported MAF, Best ET: 13.86 @100mph. 1.99 60'
17 inch ROH "ZS" wheels. 17x8.5(front) and 17x9.5 (rear). Firestone Firehawk SZ50s. 245/45/zr17s and 275/40/zr17s. T56

On the way... Radar Blue 89 Formula, T56, Ram Jet 430, Ram Air, 17inch ROHs.

Mark_ZZ3

Yep, go here:

http://www.edelbrock.com/automotive/...new_heads.html

Mark.

Slow Iroc

Just got off the phone with the gentleman a TPIS. Seems they can burn a prom for me that will retain the o2 sensor, and I'm not sure, but prehaps the MAF as well.

Does anyone know if for $537.37 that the intake lists at (Getting it for $460), if that includes the throttle body and fuel rails???

Also, looking at my choices in heads, the GM fastburn head seems like it's the best head to be produced for awhile. 210cc intakes, 62cc chambers, fast burn chambers, and of course the special intake ports, but there is a thing that WORRIES ME! In the GMPP catalog they say I would have to use headers that fit LT1/Lt4 flanges. What the hell of those and can I modify my edelbrock headers to fit? I mean, is it just extra material in the casting, or a cmopletely different bolt pattern and what not?

Trax, how about if you shoot me an email at MeanIrocZ@aol.com, I would love to talk to you about the prom burning. (This is assuming I don't email you first.)

Really need to know about the exhuast issue. Oh yeah, do you guys thing I'll be able to keep a stock mounted alternator and AC unit with the RamJet? Is it taped for the bolt and what not?

THANKS!!!

Aaron's 87

Have you considered a PFI setup on a carb looking intake - ie accel pro-ram. It would seem to have great rpm capability and uniform air distribution.

Remember, the parts have to match the application. And, heads are where the power is found.

Slow Iroc

I looked into it, but getting a throttle assembly capable of support 550-600HP (which I plan on making with the 406), is outragously expensive!

FormulaJoe

I jsut recently recieved my SLP 1.75 in headers and I see what the problem is. The exhaust port is raised a bit as well. The header needs to be opened up at the top of the port to flow freely.

It looks like there is enough material to grind off on the header flange to match the exhaust port, you would have to be careful not to grind into the header tube or disturb the weld of thr flange and tube. Im gonna try it to see if it will work.

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L98, 3.27 9-bolt, Hooker shorty headers, custom 2.5inch Y-pipe, no cat, 3inch 2chamber flowmaster, JET AFPR, Ported MAF, Best ET: 13.86 @100mph. 1.99 60'
17 inch ROH "ZS" wheels. 17x8.5(front) and 17x9.5 (rear). Firestone Firehawk SZ50s. 245/45/zr17s and 275/40/zr17s. T56

On the way... Radar Blue 89 Formula, T56, Ram Jet 430, Ram Air, 17inch ROHs.

DARCOM

i use my superram with a lumper cam than that
it works great
check out my simple page at:
http://darcom.home.texas.net/

Slow Iroc

Two more questions, will the ooker shorties bolt up to an edelbrock Y-pipe, and do you think the hookers have enough material to grind away as well? Does anyone make a short header for these heads???

Darcom, on your page you say you are running duals...HOW? The rear pic you have looks like an SLP style exhaust, with a single muffler. How did you runn the exhaust pipes, and what where their sizes? Hows ground clearance, and fit and function?

So what size cam are you running, and what are you 1/4 times and trap speeds?

[This message has been edited by Slow Iroc (edited March 21, 2001).]

Slow Iroc

Guess what I found out? For $400, you only get the manifold. I know the throttle body part number (unkown $'s), and the Distributor Part Number (like $200), but what fuel rails do I use for this freggin thing, and is there anything else I need to have a functioning intake. I already have the injectors...

raven350

I just got the Weiand Intake 9901-101-1 Which is a single plane manifold with a holley bolt pattern on top that is setup for fuel injection.

I also got the Lignefelter elbow that mounts on top and a twin 58mm Throttle body.

This setup is going on in about a 1 1/2 weeks or so... I'll let you guys know what happens....

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Sportsman II 72 CC heads, Pete Jackson gear drive, Performance Resources chip, Edelbrock 1 5/8" headers and Edelbrock cat back exhaust, hi-flow cats, Trans-go stage 3 shift kit, Vigilante 9.5" 2800 stall convertor, SLP cold air induction, SLP roller camshaft, 24lb ADS injectors, AFPR, 3.45 rear end gears, and other goodies...


raven

JoelOl75

The ramjet computer can only go up to 6000rpm. If you have it reflashed they can raise it to 6300rpm. Thats as high as it will go. It's a marine computer so rpm isn't important in that app.



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'88 Camaro RS 2.8L
'88 Formula 350 (Too many mods to list...)

FormulaJoe

As far as I know, you cant buy the fuel rails yet. There has been one or two guys on this board that have made their own rails though.

I dont know about the hooker headers working wiht the edelbrock ypipe. Probably not, but who knows. I would think you could get them to match the ports on the fastburn heads though.

------------------
L98, 3.27 9-bolt, Hooker shorty headers, custom 2.5inch Y-pipe, no cat, 3inch 2chamber flowmaster, JET AFPR, Ported MAF, Best ET: 13.86 @100mph. 1.99 60'
17 inch ROH "ZS" wheels. 17x8.5(front) and 17x9.5 (rear). Firestone Firehawk SZ50s. 245/45/zr17s and 275/40/zr17s. T56

On the way... Radar Blue 89 Formula, T56, Ram Jet 430, Ram Air, 17inch ROHs.

Dan W

Arent you going to need that anyway? Maybe you are thinking of those billet 4bbls out there. There are other options including using a TPI style TB unit on a right angle adaptor... You could even use a holley 900 cfm 4bbl TBI unit... these sell for about $400 complete. I think they are also availible w/o electronics.

Slow Iroc

There is absolutely NO WAY I am going to use a TBI setup on this car, no matter how good or cheap it may be. I don't like this elbows because air does not like to change dirction, so the elbow would be a "Plug" when the 406 goes in. I need airflow, PERIOD, lol. Yeah those 4 barrel throttle body's are the only way I would go with that form of FI, but there is NO WAY I can justify spending $800 on a throttle body.

How would you make your own fuel rails? Would you modify a set of stock TPI units, or are they all new castings you have to have made, and what kind of shop would do that. I think my local engine builder would look at me as if I was crazy if I drug that huge intake in there and asked him to make fuel rails for me, lol.

FormulaJoe

Ive never done it but I know that you can buy bare fuel rail stock from LPE (lingenfelter) and plumb it all in yourself.

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L98, 3.27 9-bolt, Hooker shorty headers, custom 2.5inch Y-pipe, no cat, 3inch 2chamber flowmaster, JET AFPR, Ported MAF, Best ET: 13.86 @100mph. 1.99 60'
17 inch ROH "ZS" wheels. 17x8.5(front) and 17x9.5 (rear). Firestone Firehawk SZ50s. 245/45/zr17s and 275/40/zr17s. T56

On the way... Radar Blue 89 Formula, T56, Ram Jet 430, Ram Air, 17inch ROHs.

Slow Iroc

Do you know if those rails come just straight up pure, with no holes drilled? If so, I might consider doing this, but I hate custom work (Never really works right the first time, or the twentieth time.

Dan W

There is no reason that a TBI unit cant be used on that application to meter air. I wasnt trying to imply that you use if for fuel. I think one of the Holley 4bbls would work great!


Check out this link... make sure you take a look at the holley links in it... they have most if not all of EFI parts needed to complete the swap.

https://www.thirdgen.org/messgboard/...ML/001521.html

DARCOM

slow iroc: if you can capiture the pic of my
rear view on my page and zoom in.
i need too take pics of my exhoust i have people
asking me about it alot.and the pipes only
come out on one side becouse i have the muflers
one in front of the other and had no room to
run it back to the oter side.
ill try to up date my page in a couple of
days if i can find a camera
but i draw a diagram and put it there.
for now

http://darcom.home.texas.net/

Slow Iroc

So you ran the two pipes right next to each other, on the passanger side? Seems like a lof of bends to make, they are 2.5 inches I assume? What kind of mufflers are you using, and what are those tips, they look great! Was this something you had a muffler shop do with just crushed bends? if not, and it's an eaftermarket assembly, please do tell us where to get it!

Sorry I know a lot of people seem to think 1 3 inch pipe will flow more air than 2 2.5 inch pipes, but they base it off the science of fluid dynamics, which is something that can't be translated into air flow measurements. Besides, two pipes are just COOL! LOL

DARCOM

slow iroc
nope there 3" and i did all the welding my self
only becouse whin i asked any shop to do it
they were relucktant and thats what i wanted
so i bought the parts and did it. the hardest
part was over the rearend trying to clear all
the parts plus making a new trans mount to
raise the pipes higher otherwise they hang
real low.
its mostly flowmaster pipe and about 5 U bends
from flowmaster.
its a coustm job but cops like to hasel you
about every thang around here so i wanted 3"
that came out the rear insted of dumps before
the rear

Slow Iroc

How did you handle the tranny mount? Would a dual cat mount work you think? This is probably something I could have crush bent, since I don't weld...hummm, something to keep in mind. if you ever have the car up on jack stands, take a picture for us, will ya!

DARCOM

ok for the tranny mount
i had a few differant desings
one was to take the stock one and cut and weld
the extra material to make the pipes have more
ground clearance but that ended up being to
much work.
so i just took some extra 3' pipe crushed two
of them flat as possoble welded them together
and then this part is hard to explain but it
took a little sleg hammer work to get the bends
to clear the 3" pipe and then some more to
get it to mount just right after that i just
drilled the holes.it took me about 6 hours
to get it right and it was a good work out.

it came out like this ___/ \__/ \___

as soon as i get another digiatal camara
ill defintly post pics of them on my page
i have gotten many request sence i put my page up

as for the tips there just crome 3" tips
i thougt it didnot look right with the dull
pipes so i wellded the tips to my pipes.