91-RS-B4C-fake?

Trying to select the best AFR head & the best cam combination
for a slightly moded TPI.

Current race weight is 3660 lbs.
The car is pretty much stock with bolt ons at this point.
( see list of mods @ the bottom)
Several Dynojet runs yielded a best of
239 rwhp and 345.1 rwtq
( although most runs were @ 340 rwtq)
a WINPEP7 Dynojet performance evaluation program further reduced rwtq
to 318.77 rwtq while the 239 wrhp remained unchanged.

I've been reading (Not always understanding) TGO for quite some time.
I've made some mistakes that I'll have to live with & work with
due to lack of funds & lack of cooperation from my better half.

The biggest mistake that I’ve made was my choice of exhaust system.
After reading TGO I found that I selected a poor choice.
Edelbrock ceramic coated TES headers.
Had Catco dual cat replacements installed .
And the Flowmaster 3” American Thunder catback.

That said:

I’m going to add:
Mike Graycar ported plenum
AS & M large tube runners
TPIS big mouth intake
TPIS AFPR
New injectors (possibly 24 # )

Edge 2800 stall torque converter
trans go shift
trans cooler

Current modifications:
Jet TPI air foil...
K & N air filters...
Gutted air boxes...
MSD Blaster replacement coil…
TPIS plug wires...
Bosch platinum plugs...
Throttle body coolant bypass...
Empire Inland aluminum driveshaft...
March steel underdrive pulleys # 4405...
Edelbrock ceramic coated TES headers...
Catco dual cats replacements...
Flowmaster American Thunder 3" catback exhaust...
TPIS mat relocation kit...
Meziere electric water pump...
Motive master kit & 3.42 rear gears...
Summit aluminum heavy duty diff. cover...
Spohn adj. torque arm…
UMI lower control arms & relocation brackets…
UMI adj. Pan hard bar
Just as a side note the last changes to the car were
the Spohn & UMI suspension pieces. Which added 40 lbs to the car
but did not better my 1.82 60' times on street tires. Granted all my 60's were not 1.82, but I was consistently getting sub 1.90's before the change.

1989GTATransAm

iTrader: (3)

I don't see anything wrong with what you are adding. As to the Edelbrock headers I can't remember what the weak points were as I don't own any but have seen a couple. You might be able to just make some corrections to them and save some money.

You will also benefit greatly from a custom tune. Regarding the Flowmasters it is hard to say and depends on your performance level. I would have bought the Magnaflows or Dynomax. Not sure if there is a problem with the Catco dual cat setup. So no comment there.

jack harrison

you will notice a big differance with the new torque converter. have you thought about having your tranny rebuilt? having a shift kit will help too. mine flew after having the tranny built for street/strip. makes it stronger too.

91-RS-B4C-fake?

But what I'm trying to figure out is
what AFR heads & which cam
would give me the most Torque & horsepower with my future mods.

I've read about the new AFR 180cc or 195cc elimintor heads.
But which one is better for a TPI moded as I've outlined above?

Then with the best of the 2 heads selected which cam would
deliver say 400+ hp & 400 + lbs torque @ the engine?

I've read about the TPIS ZZ-9 Cam
the TPIS ZZ-9x & the ZZ-409
The gm zz-4 cam
several different LPE cams ( 74211, 74216, or 74219 )
and several comp xtreme energy & crane cams.

That's what I'm trying to figure out,
which AFR head to buy and the best cam to go with it.

For example: Would the AFR 180cc with 68cc be better than the 74cc?
or
If I went with the AFR 195cc should it be 65cc or 75cc?
Would the ZZ-9 cam work better with 180cc or 195cc ?
etc., etc, etc.

jmiller

I did a lot of research before buying my AFR heads. I went with 190cc with 68cc chambers. If you look at the flow charts it makes sense with TPI. I also went with TPIS ZZ9 cam and their big mouth intake. Been running for 3 years now. I have been using TPIS stuff since 1998 when I converted my 67' Camaro to TPI. Back then and now they provide the best info and knowledge for TPI setups. I trust them 100%.
AFR has been around for a long time they know what their doing and they have proven it. Back in 1977 AFR did all the head porting on 2 of our big block chevy race motors for 1/4 mile drag boat racing. (unblown gas jet and competition jet). We held both class world records from 1977 to 1981. AFR designed the "D" port ex. chambers back then before they started building alum heads. They know what their doing and have been doing it for decades!!

91-RS-B4C-fake?

But AFR no longer offers a 190cc head.
Plus I'll be running a 350 not a 383.
Many 383 TPI's produce 400+ hp & torque.
What about the 350's?

Do you think the 180cc with 68cc
combined with the TPIS ZZ-9 cam
will give the best results?

I haven't been able to find someone who has posted with exactly the
same combination of parts to have an idea of what the
actual hp & torque will be.
And I lack the ability to compute all the variables myself.

Stingray69

http://www.airflowresearch.com/sbc.php

You have probably already been here, but the new offerings supersede the old ones. Decide on what compression ratio you are shooting for, to decide what size combustion chamber you want. I hafta think the 180cc intake port size model will provide all the flow you need, even if you pick the higher CR (smaller cc chamber size number). I'm not sure what your induction system will flow, though; this is how you should decide how big of intake ports you need. Too big of an intake port will slow your intake charge velocity, leading to poorer cylinder filling. Remember also to check for piston to valve clearence when assembling; I would call AFR to discuss this.

Here is an article about the new Eliminator series SBC heads:
http://airflowresearch.com/articles/article113/A-P1.htm

91-RS-B4C-fake?

Thanks everyone for your input.

Gunner823

iTrader: (2)

For the TPI I'd go with 180s, that's what I have waiting to be put on my engine. Cam I chose the comp cams 276HR (08-305-8). I also went with 65cc chambers as I'm going to run around 10.5:1 CR

3rdgenZ

iTrader: (1)

the TPIS base and AS&M runners sould run somewhere around 240-260cfms. the AFR 180s will be a perfect match.

cams > http://thunderracing.com/catalog/?ac...&vid=6&pcid=51

63-08-304-8 or 63-08-502-8 should work nice with that combo. that should get you close if not right at 400Hp.

Gunner823

iTrader: (2)

3rdGenZ,

The setup I am assembling is very similar, and comp recommended the 08-305-8 cam. I'm curious, because I actually already have the 08-304-8 cam that you mention in the car now, apparently it was recommended to the builder as a good choice for a supercharger cam. Of course, I'd like to not spend money if I don't have to, would there be any real benefit to going one step up in the cam selection if I already have the 266 cam?

rel3rd

iTrader: (1)

I'd save the cash if it were me. The cam you already have is pretty stout, and the heads are supposedly super nice, even flowing better than the old 195's...I just ordered a set today myself.

HD4mula

I had a stock TPI and then added the following similar to your plans;
AFR Eliminator 180 heads (milled to 10:1)
Edelbrock base (same as the rest)
AS&M runners
Plenum ported by Mike (Corvette Plenums)
52mm TB
Summit roler tip rockers
Comp Cams XFI268 cam (new cam for fuel injection)
Operating Range: 1800-5800 RPM
Duration Advertised: 268° Intake / 276° Exhaust
Duration @ .050'' Lift: 218° Intake / 224° Exhaust
Valve Lift w/1.6 Rockers: .570'' Intake / .565'' Exhaust
Lobe Separation Angle: 113°


I just recently finished it and only has about 80 miles running my old tune. From the litte test I have done (still lean on top) it picks up very strong above 3000 RPM and doesn't seem to lost torque low. Idle is great. You can hear it on this clip (sorry, non Camaro/Firebird car).

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mfX4kR-Lgwk

rel3rd

iTrader: (1)

WOW! A Fiero? Tight fit, I'd assume?
Cool project!

How does it do with the typical TPI power drop at 4600 rpm's or so?

1989GTATransAm

iTrader: (3)

Yes, very nice on the Fiero. Also thank you for the sound clip. That is the exact cam I'm going to be running shortly with my new combo. See signature. How is the idle? By the way I installed mine on the 110ICL instead of the 109ICL recommended by Comp Cams. Should give me a wee bit more upper end.

1989GTATransAm

iTrader: (3)

Back to the topic of the thread. The AFR 180 Eliminators will do the trick for you. You will want smaller than 68cc depending of what pistons you run. If you use the stock pistons you will actually lose compression with 68cc heads. Also use the GM .028" head gasket. You need at least 10:1 compression and if it was me I would go 10.5:1. My new combo is 10.75:1 with .035 quench.

As to the cam the newComp Cams XFI cams are great. You should get the beehive valve springs with the new heads. So then you would need the Comp Pro Magnum 1.6 rockers. Also get the best pushrods you can afford. The Comp Pro Magnum pushrods will do the trick. Manley also makes a good pushrod. You want to keep the "pole vaulting" to a minimum on the pushrods.

Gunner823

iTrader: (2)

Man I'll bet that Fiero is a monster. All that power and so little weight....

jmiller

Well, I didn't know AFR quit making the 190ccs, sorry! I would get the 180's and the ZZ9 cam. Even though the ZZ9 cam is a TPIS slightly modified version of the ZZ4 cam, it is much more productive. Love the idle!!
I have a stock ZZ4 crate motor with TPI in my 67' and a ZZ4 cam in my truck with TPI, they're good cams but the ZZ9 is quite a bit more potent.
I had my 383 short block set up so that I would get 10.5 comp. with the 68cc heads. That worked very well. You might cheat and go for 11.0.
Also, I am running the TPIS big mouth on both my camaros.

HD4mula

Thanks all for the comments . Yes it is a blast to ride. The idle is just fine as you can hear. In my case I set it up to idle at about 750rpm-800rpm. I tried base idle lower than 750 but engine didn't liked it too much. Like I said it feels much stronger above 3000RPM but I only took it once to 5900 with my LM-1 and it was running around 13.5:1 AFR so I need to add more fuel before I do more joy runs. It did pulled nicely all the way.

rel3rd

iTrader: (1)

Thanks for the info!

D's89IROCZ

if you are keeping teh TPI , I would go with the Trickflow heads instead . I will try and flind the post but , they outflowed the AFR's all the way to 4500rpm ( where TPI lives) then they peak out higher . But if I were you I would leave the AFR's and go that route. Someone did a comparo of them on a site ....I will be back with the htread ( if I can remember where lol ...I ivsit alot )

D's89IROCZ

Here we go , it was actually in this forum lol

Here is the thread
https://www.thirdgen.org/forums/tpi/...ion-355-a.html

rel3rd

iTrader: (1)

Not 100% sure, but I "think" that the AFR heads tested are the previous version, aren't they? Not the new Eliminator series.

D's89IROCZ

Yup they were the eliminator series. It's in the new CHP mag I guess . Here is anther quote that would make me rather have the trickflows over the new ( or older AFR's)
I do know that AFR heads in the test had lighter 2.055 intake valves and the Trickflows had 2.02. I also know from data obtained that the Trickflow heads have a minimum cross section of 1.93 while the AFRs have something like a 1.98 minimum cross section.

That tells me the AFR's had an edge ...no given the same edge would the trickflows do ...better ?

rel3rd

iTrader: (1)

I must be looking at a different magazine, I guess, lol...

I just picked up a mag with the Eliminator 195's paired up against a set of BowTie heads...maybe it was Super Chevy? Don't mind me...lol

HD4mula

LOL! Someone copy paste in Excel data from two different articles 4 months apart and calls that a comparison test? Please send that to CHP so they can publish it in their next issue with no work at all

D's89IROCZ

they made that graph based on their numbers ...whats so wrong with that ? I thought it was a ncie way for the guy who did it for us who don't have the mag
What does 4 months apart have anything to do with anything though ?