Anniversary-Z-man

iTrader: (2)

That's not what you need....I hope and pray my cover is sealed well enough. I couldn't get the pins out, so I drilled the cover and RTV'd the entire thing.
A billet cover would be nice but I don't know of one that exists.

wgeous

Hey guys, just chiming in. Monday I started into my disassembly. I've started wiring harness also, one sensor and one connection at a time. Its not hard just tidious (should have bought one from mike). Need to ask few questions. Keep in mind that I'm working with pre-86 block inside truck.

first: Will the Vortec distributor work with older pre-86 blocks or do I need to change the distributor gear?

second: Did I hear right? Dale did you start car without flashing memory???

third: Will the Coyles vortec timing chain work without modification, and what gasket did you guys use for oil pan gasket seal??

Pic coming soon thank in advance.

Dale

iTrader: (12)

Dizzy should go right in. Its all basic SBC stuff.

No, you will have to flash the ecm. Even if you get one from a van, it has anti theft that needs taken off. As well, with my setup I'm running very rich. Then whatever options you dont use (egr, rear o2's, gas tank pressure, etc). IIRC Scuzz offered to flash mine, but I had sent it to someone else. After a month its still not back so I bought a new ecm and program myself. Maybe Scuzz will help you, and provide better service then I got from someone else.

I made my own harness as well. Very time consuming. I had time though(then, not now), not alot of cash.

timing chain needs to be single row. Roller will work, just not a double roller.

scuzz

I don't mind editing out vats, egr, whatever for free if you don't have the software.
I do not do tunes though.
Send it to me with return label and I'll get it back out in a day or two.
The tax business will be upon me soon, and offer will expire after thanksgiving.
Ron

Mkos1980

iTrader: (8)

I've done both. Mine, I removed the pins in the block. I get a small leak. Justins I drilled out the cover like a stock one and no leak.

wgeous

This is addressed to all pre-86 small block builders. I ran into a situation with heavy duty vortec timing chain. If you have pre-86 block the cam sprocket will not fit, I guess we'll have to update to new roller cam or vortec cam. I ended up getting the regular timing chain and had no issues with it. Also could not remove timing cover locating pins from block. I drilled vortec timing cover and presto. The oil pan really needs to be dropped if you intend to do this swap with motor inside car. Its not to hard for a truck but car owners be prepared.

Fast355

iTrader: (2)

That is ingenuity, except I machined mine out of a solid piece of aluminum on a drill press. Took both gaskets, drilled holes, tapped the Linear EGR valve side for bolts. It was a completely square adapter with a bunch of holes drilled in it. I drew it on Autocad to position the valves correctly for the EGR passages to connect. Once I had a working drawing on Autocad, I printed out my templates and started drilling.

Dale

iTrader: (12)

I drew one like that in autocad as well(thats my job), but I could not afford to have it machined, so I made it out of brass pipe n angle iron. Angle iron was free, had over half the pipe ftgs around. Cost me about 15 bux. Its also something "anyone" can do. However, if I was to redo it, Id go with 3/8 pipe instead of 1/2. Will beable to align the holes better.

Dale

iTrader: (12)

Id like to let people know some options that can work with some small effort as I have all this hooked up and not sure if others do.

1. As just discussed, EGR can be made to fit.
2. Anti theft WILL work if you pin it to the LS1 port (blue30??) and change it in the pcm to "PWM" rather then "class2"
3. MAF will fit onto the dual snorkle, 85-89 intake tube, and some rubber couplers from lumber yard. Tight fit, but it fits.
4. Factory 3rd gen coil will work, you just have to relocate it and make your own coil to dizzy wire.(93 lt1 wires wont fit)



?? I have my speedo running thru the ecm. Didnt pay attention to make sure it worked.(was looking for smoke, flames, etc)

Dale

iTrader: (12)

Car is up and running finally. It is still running extremely rich, doesnt like to start or idle. So I will have to learn tuning fast. Also keep getting code 0449(I think thats it) which is the evap emissions system. Any idea what I might have done wrong there? Does ours work the same as trucks/4th gens?

Dale

iTrader: (12)

Found on another forum, the vortec dizzy will NOT fit with the stealth ram intake.

Dale

iTrader: (12)

few pics

Dale

iTrader: (12)

..

Dale

iTrader: (12)

maf

Dale

iTrader: (12)

What pins do I hook my clutch switch up to? c1-32 n 34?

wgeous

I have another problem guys. The oil pressure sending unit is broken in block with ez-out inside. I tried to drill out but ez-out is made of harden steel. Mind you, this was done by "professional mechanic", is there any way I can relocate sending unit on block, perhaps a remote filter location? Can 411 operate without sending unit. Again this is a pre-86 block, I've looked by the oil filter but there is nothing there i can tap into.

Also, is there a special o2 sensor to use, I found cheap 4 wire heated sensor online for $27 but no pigtail? What kind of cameras is everyone using to take pics.

Dale

iTrader: (12)

The OPSU may leak if its not plugged off right. I left mine wired inline with fuel pump for safty sakes. It can be bypassed. Then you will also not have a dash gauge. I think some of the older blocks had a way to mount them up by the dizzy?

I belive you have to use vortec/van o2 sensors. Mine were 70 a pop with a "hook up". Gotta love redhead females that work at parts stores

I do photography on the side, so I have low-end-pro grade photo equipment.

LSRacing

Hi guys. Im here to try and help answer questions to the 411 swap for third gens. I have tuned many cars from this forum at our dyno and it has been very nice getting to know everyone. The 411 swap has been a huge success since MKOS, Mike@EFIConnection.com and myself had gotten together to make this happen. There are no down sides to the swap. Tuning the 411 on a third gen has proven to be a very good way to go. If you got any questions, ask away and ill try and answer all that I can.

Dale

iTrader: (12)

I have sent you a PM at efilive forum, can you go read n respond please

1989GTATransAm

iTrader: (3)

Here in California with the smog ****'s I need a few answers.

One, does the SES light still work the same way?
Two, how do you control the EGR valve?

These are the only things that are keeping me from doing it.

Thanks, Allen

Dale

iTrader: (12)

Not sure if they will require it to meet 02 codes, or actual year car codes since its just a wire swap, not motor swap.

SES light still works. But rather then pulling codes with a paper clip and count light flashes, you need a scanner.

EGr is controlled by the ecm electronically. You will have to fab up your own bracket/mounting

Justin89Formy

iTrader: (26)

Hey Jamy! How the heck do I get ahold of you? I need some tweaks in my tune!

LSRacing

lsracing@live.com That is my personal email address. Send me a message there. Dale, im working on your tune today. I hope to have it done and emailed also today.

Dale

iTrader: (12)

Sweet. I did find some vac leaks like you suggested. So I've been fixing them this holiday weekend. Hopefully between fixing them and your tune this thing should run more like its suppose to.

black_highway

Anyone have any ideas on how to make the cruise control work? I am also particularly interested in using this PCM in a Turbo V6 application. My Typhoon needs a new wiring harness, and I'd love sequential fire with boost control and on the fly tunability in the PCM

d10pins

iTrader: (1)

i have my hp tuner now how do i do a crank relearn anyone know. thanks

Dale

iTrader: (12)

I dont think hp-tuner has a crank relearn? I think thats only efilive, or a dealership thing.

Mkos1980

iTrader: (8)

[QUOTE=Dale;3533816]

I belive you have to use vortec/van o2 sensors. Mine were 70 a pop with a "hook up".
QUOTE]


25 a piece on ebay new or 35 a piece at summit racing. Both sets are good. I know justin is using the ebay ones and I'm using the summit ones.

Ricco

I have just finished reading this and 'the other' thread for the second time now.. I am interested in this swap and inparticular a harness from S10Wildside..

Can someone post up the GM part numbers for the additional peices you would need as opposed to getting them from a junk yard?

This is the list i have collated in my head..

Reluctor Ring
Harmonic balancer
Timing chain cover
Crank Position sensor
Distributor
Single Roller Timing chain
PCM
Harness

Also, can someone explain the other harnesses involved? I am working on tearing down my 92Z right now but already have a T56 and dash from a 97 LT1 car.. What would be my best bet, using the dash harness from the 3rd gen or from the 4th gen? If i got a 4th gen steering column, would things be easier? What about the other harnesses that attach to the dash harness? Power doors/windows, lights and wipers etc?

If it is best to use the 3rd gen dash harness, how do most people adapt that for a 4th gen instrument cluster? Cut off the cluster connectors and solder in to the 3rd gen harness?

Sorry for all the questions, I am very new to American V8's.. and inparticular automotive wiring!?!?

Cheers,
Richard.

scuzz

You can go to a parts store and tell them you have a 96-99 L31 Vortec Chevy pickup (pick any year), and tell them what you need.
Most of the stuff is easy to come by.
Ron

Dale

iTrader: (12)

I have most of the GM part numbers at home in a word doc. I'll try to remember to post it.

Also, you will need the TC cover bolts and gaskets. Some sets come with these, some dont.

You will also need the truck ICM, and decide which coil to use (3rdgen, or truck).

:edit: found it on another forum I attend.
12200411 ECM (s10, trucks, vans, LS1)
hackable 90-92 camaro engine harness(dont want to hack my current one, want to sell with intake)
01-02 express van engine harness
01-02 express van knock sensor 10456288
96-99 Vortec dizzy 93441558
96-99 Vortec balancer 12555879
96-99 Vortec timing cover 12552557
96-99 Vortec timing cover bolts/grommets 10213293,12551135,10213294
96-99 Vortec Reluctor ring 10190917
96-99 Vortec crank sensor 12596851 or 10476885??
96-99 Vortec ignition module 10482803
96-99 Vortec coil 10489421
96-99 Vortec plug wires 12192364 (will just get new OTC’s)
oxygen sensors (2) 25312200 or AFS105, 15703
EFI Live (ka ching!!!)

I was not able to get stock vortec wires to work. I ended up getting 2 sets to make it work(cost just as much as some DIY performance wires).

Ricco

Thanks man, can you answer any of my other harness questions?

What would it take to run a modern Cruise Control system? Is that more or less stand alone like the third gen vacum system? Could it be as easy as using the 4th gen dash harness and a 4th gen steering column?

Whats the difference in the car model PCM? Like if the PCM can come from anything assuming it is a correct 12200411 PCM, would it be better to get one already mapped with an LS1 Fbody map or does it really not matter?

Cheers,
Richard.

Dale

iTrader: (12)

I havent messed with my cruise control yet as I cant get my speedo to work the way I like. In the LS1 swap forum, they say you need to get the 4th gen cruise module and it works the 3rd gen device under the hood.

Dash of a 4th gen, NO clue. I would imagine it should make things easier as then you can wire up ac, speedo, cluster lights, guages, all like an LS1 camaro.

Any 411pcm will work. they come in express vans, vettes, camaros, s10's, 5.3l silvarados....or get the roadrunner pcm. You will have to have it programed like an 02 5.7l express van to make this work.

Ricco

Thanks, this is what I was looking for..

ibmtech

iTrader: (1)

What would the major advantage of going to ODBII over ODBI be? just curiouse

Dale

iTrader: (12)

NP Ricco, that why where here. I will say for my setup, it had WAY to much fuel in the program, but my motor is "stock".

IBM. Um.. full sequential fire, o2 readings both sides(IIRC up to 7o2 sensors). Can run map only, maf only, or dual. Better control for boost. Higher RPM control(up to 8k). It can pinpoint down to which exact cyl is miss-fire.

Looking at an old turnerprort file vs current tune file. Everything has more options or finer details for better control except 1 or 2 items(1 being EGR).

scuzz

I really enjoy seeing this post grow like it has.
As memcals, ecms, etc gets harder to find, this is a great way to keep the third gen cars going.
I don't have a third gen car, but I use all their parts in other cars. My wife's 67 bird vert loves it's TPI/700R4, and several other cars have all TPI stuff in them.
Eventually, I will get my 41 pickup with OBD2 going. Health issues again.
As more folks changeover, it makes it easier for the next guy to jump on.
As the number of projects go up, the problems go down.
If you go over to http://www.pacificp.com/forum/viewfo...974b9462ce9dc3 you will see that this same thing has caught on in the pickup sector also.
The first of us to do the changeover started asking questions on the www.monodox.com forum and started comparing notes, and something pretty good came out of the wondering if it would work.
It seems that when someone asks if they might make something better, and posts on a board like TGO, everyone trys to offer ideas, and then they come together.
Thanks to all for chiming in.
Ron

ibmtech

iTrader: (1)

So ODBII is much more good better. I have ran into a couple of problems when I repinned the ECM from 176 to 730 speed density. But, after I repinned to a 749 boosted ECM, the problems became that much more evident and it a new learning curve again. Thirdgen.org has a plethura of knowledge available. From what you read and see, there are people that can make or change history.

shocker89bird

Alrigth after a long abscence I am getting back to work on my project, don't ever get a girlfriend they just tie up too much free time. I guess my question is has nayone had any sucess with getting a distibuter toi work with a holley stealth ram? I tryed a place in northern illinois where the guy was an expert with dizzys but once we talked he never returned my calls. I would prefer not to modify the fuel rails as this requires towing the vehicle to an aluminum welder.

86L69

S10Wildside,
I know you have put the coil packs project on the backburner but do you have any idea which PCMs it would/could use? Any that could control hte 6L80? Thx

scuzz

I was thinking about that the other day myself.
I know you have a full plate without that though.

dhirocz

iTrader: (2)

Few things Im curious on.

What size wire does the factory using it's harnesses? 18 or 20 ga? I know it's TXL but thats about it.

Any special boots or anything that go into the back of the LSx connector after the wires are in place, like a weatherpack?

Do you see any possible problems with making a replacement LT1 harness at home? Im thinking of updating my LT1 car with a 411 PCM because of its limitations. I figured I could possibly work the harness to work with the 411. It's got a single plane and is going 434 sbc soon so no opti worries.

Any chance that I could keep my delteq setup? I would assume no since it replaces the ignition module and 411 requires the vortec module...but it would be nice to keep coilpacks... any thoughts on this? I know the vortec is like a 180 sensor, isnt the LT1 different? If not I imagine this swap would be rather easy on an LT1 harness in an LT1 car.

Any details on the construction of the PCM connector?

Dale

iTrader: (12)

if you go to eficonnections.com, he sells everything you will need.

The harness uses different size wires.

The 411 is used on an LS1 which is coil packs. As well the 5.3vortec which is coil packs. So it will support coil packs, but you wont beable to run the "express" code I am guessing. You will need one of them. This is also what wildside/eficonnections is wanting to learn how to do, but doesnt have time. If you can make it work, you will have lots of followers.

Mkos1980

iTrader: (8)

I talked to Jamy the other day and he mentioned he was going to use my car for the coil packs. I'm going down to see him this weekend probebly. I'll ask him more about it then.

Dale

iTrader: (12)

I was looking at that after I made the post. Other then re-pinning, installing coil packs, load with LS1 program. Only issue is the cam sensor which does not appear the LS1 sensor will work. Would have to keep the dizzy in place unless there is some other sensor.

jwscab

you 'd need something where the distributor is in any case, due to need to drive the oil pump. Cap and rotor optional (just to cover up the sensor, I suppose).

I beleive MSD makes a cam sensor stub that works, although it's again-more money....the existing distributor is free.

Dale

iTrader: (12)

Right, but the ls1 sensor goes down in a hole like that. Doesnt appear to have the oil drive either. I think it reads a notch off the cam?

I looked at the LT setup. But then where would you have a sensor? It still has an oil drive. No "plug" as its intake is the plug.

So yes, leave current dizzy unless there is a sensor from some other motor that is right size, length, oil drive, correct sensor output.

shocker89bird

So after all these months no one has an answer for a place to get a distributer to work behind a stealthram?

jwscab

I believe the vortec distributor fits on the manifold no problem right? I'm almost 100% positive, becuase I built my own 'stealth' ram manifold months before stupid holley came out with theirs. I used the tunnel ram base they offered, and drilled my own holes for injectors, and built a doghouse. I tried throwing a vortec dist on the hole, since I had one right on the bench and it fit fine. Your problem from what it sounds like is the fuel rail. Should be easy enough to modify, you can drill another hole in the rail, pretty much anywhere, and you can use a pipe plug to plug off the rail ends. No real welding necessary. Trim the ends if need be. Use AN or standard pipe threads, easy enough to get the right taps. Worst case, you might need to use an external or remote fuel pressure regulator.

shocker89bird

Nope. The fuel rails extend back far enough that they would need to be cut on the passenger side not just plugged. I already have looked into this signifigantly and it is either shorten the rails and have them welded and tapped or have the two distributors modified. I don't have pictures but trust me it isn't as easy as that.