25thannivZ28

Hey everybody, last year I had ran my car at Great Lakes Dragaway, Union Grove, WI and ran a 13.98 @ 96.6 1.952 60' with Drag Radials. At that time I had a cam w/a .480 gross lift, built 700R Auto, Trickflow heads, SLP Twin Runners, Jet Performance chip, Headers & Flowmaster 3" Exhaust. Fuel Pressure set at 42psi.

This spring, in addition to mentioned above, I had added 4.10 gears, 24# injectors, cam w/a .520 Gross lift, ported my upper plenum, added BBK 58mm TB, fresh tune-up and had a custom tuned chip for my application! Both runs with Drag Radials, I ended up going 1/4 mile time of 14.4 @ 94.4 1.730 60'. Respectfully speaking, what the hell did I do wrong? What if I were to put the original 3.23's back in? Is that my downfall? Perhaps bump the Fuel pressure up?

GuitarJunki17

iTrader: (1)

Wow, that second one is a killer 60', great job in that respect. So that can only mean you are suffering up high. What does your ignition system look like? Checked air filter, oil filters, etc?, cap, rotor, integrity of plug wires?

This is baffleing me beyond belief. These are times I am running with a stock motor and a 2.1 60ft. You have to be suffering up high somehow. And no, I don't think your 4.10 gears are the issue at hand.

25thannivZ28

Ignition system is stock, air filter is a freshly cleansed/oiled K & N, Cap and rotor/plug wires are in very good shape! Plugs were brand new!

Ooh, you ran that stock? YIKES, and I spent nearly 2K on all this crap!! haha.

1MeanZ

iTrader: (9)

well if you spent 2k on all that dont look at my sig, in only spent 1k on the motor and it is a 305.

I think you are running a tad too much cam for a TPI intake myself, which is compounded by the 4.10s in the 2nd half of the track. The other problem is your trap speed is really slow too. Stock L98s can trap that. Your tune could be off as well. either way you need to get that trap speed up.

GuitarJunki17

iTrader: (1)

Na, I don't think hes running too much cam. I mean, he's got the SLP runners and a top plenum port, so that will increase flow in that respect. I've seen guys with a stock TPI intake run cams near that lift and have seen noticeable gains.

25thannivZ28

hmm, what do you mean by trap speed? Considering I paid $495 for a custom tuned chip from TPIS, it better be tuned right!!!!!!!! That cam is the one they (TPIS) recommended to be the best they make for my application!

I mean 2k w/my chip, TB, Injectors, cam & springs, exhaust & gears installed...... But oh well, its an expensive hobby, thats a given!

DENN_SHAH

iTrader: (1)

on trap speed he is talking about your MPH at the end of your run.
is it shifting into 4th gear? if not there is your problem.

for what you spent on that chip you could have gotten the stuff to burn your own, AutoProm, bin switcher, ALDL cable & some extra chips. add about another 150.00~200.00 to it & you could have also gotten a wide band O2 sensor to help get it dialed in across the full range of driving & had a much better tune from idle to full throttle & never would have the need to have to pay someone else for chip tuning again.

was it tuned in person by TPIS on a dyno?

1MeanZ

iTrader: (9)

the key here is he still has the stock base which is the most restrictive part of the intake. he has a mismatched combination. hence the sucky trap speed.

3rdgenZ

iTrader: (1)

if i were you id put the 323s back in 410 is way to high. that why your 60' is great but by 1/8 mile your motor is out of steam. you must match your rpms with you gears, and with reving to 5500rpms 373would be pushing it(trust me i have them). 342 a imo the best gears for TPIs.also the 58mm tb may be to much.

port your base or get a new one. the stock base was just as restricive as the runners were.
what comp racio do you have.a bump up if fuel pressure could help as well.
you can also try to switch your tb during runs to see the diff.

25thannivZ28

I had TPIS burn my chip, it was a mail order deal where I tell them all my mods over the phone. I am not familiar on how to tune my car, now I wish I was!

With the 4.10's, I was into 4th gear by the time I got to the end of the track.

88BlackZ-51

iTrader: (2)

Question, Why did you change your gears to 4.10's? L-98's dont like gears! Thats a big issue in my opinion. With the 4.10's your motor is getting out of the torque curve way to early. Remember the L-98's fame is the low end torque. Gears are a no! no! I have 3.07's in my car. The most I would put are a set of 3.45's.

87TPI350KID

you should be in the low 13s/high 12s..

25thannivZ28

I had changed the gears to 4.10's cuz my original plan was to go with TPIS' Mini-ram set up which has that higher RPM range. But then my money tree got torn down by a medical storm, so I had to go the cheap route and resort to porting my upper plenum and add only the 58mm TB. I can still take the 4.10's out and put em on the side til I do have the money for the Mini-ram but im tryin to make it fast now with my existing set-up. I mean even with my stock 3.23's last year, I had a 1.952 60' time which is fair. Im in touch w/TPIS to maybe re-tune the chip and see what that does.

tenpin842

3.73 Is the highest gear you should go. You will still be in 3rd gear at the end of the 1/4. I had to decide what I wanted to do for a gear for my car. I talked with alot of people who knew there stuff. 3.73 was the way to go with an automatic. 4.10 with a manual. That was right from the guy at Richmond.
I also agree with your stock intake......that need to be ported or swapped out.
Sounds like you have a really great start! Just a couple fine tunning and you will have a really strong runner!

25thannivZ28

With the way I ran the other night, I think my 2000 Olds Bravada w/160,000 miles would have ran the Z28. Its the AWD so would have an excellent 60' time

cammed91

iTrader: (1)

or you could just keep the gears and tb and put a HSR on it. but if you really love the low end you might not want to. i think you probably need some sort or ignition upgrades, at least a high output coil or something. just my .02

25thannivZ28

As I mentioned earlier, I was planning on getting the Mini-Ram from TPIS but that was a bit too much money for me all of a sudden. I had my wisdom teeth out right after I had knee surgery. Lots of expenses so I cut it down to just porting my upper plenum and buying the TB. I'll have to wait til I have the cash to pay for a better flowing intake such as the Mini-ram or HSR. From there I can put the gears back in, but right now I am looking to make my car faster with my current set up and with the products I have laying in my garage. From what Im gathering it is the ECM tuning, gears swap & ignition upgrade to make a nicely matched combination.

What are your 1/4 mile times w/your HSR? I see you have a similar set up/car as I do.

25thannivZ28

I was just advised by TPIS that the majority of my problem may be something in my knock sensor where they can eliminate that from the Level IV prom. The sensor is detecting the noise from my gear drive, which I added after last years run, and is retarding my timing! Tell me if that makes sense? Also, where I can go to get a scanner to read if that is the problem? Clearly i'd like to know for sure that is the problem, prior to taking away any protection against detonation.

I did a search on knock sensors/gear drives and didn't gain much information. All I found is some people ranting and raving about "WHY DID YOU GET THAT?" "ROLLER CHAINS ARE JUST FINE!" I appreciate all information you have to say, given that it pertains to my application with the PJ Quiet gear drive and questions listed above. Thanks!

camarodarrell

It is definately possible that the gear drive is making cetain vibrations inside the motor and the knock sensor is reading it as knock. When the knock sensor detects knock it will retard the timing. I'd find somebody with a scanner and make a couple full throttle runs to see if timing is being pulled. Might try to go by a shop and find a cool mechanic with a scanner that is willing to ride with you for a couple bucks.

1991CamaroRslow

iTrader: (3)

I've seen a 2001 TA and my Camaro both go retarded after the K&N air filters were cleaned and re oiled, try spraying some electrical component cleaner on your MAF sensor. BTW a contaminated sensor won't set a code, at least it didn't in mine and it will make your car seriously slow on the top end. I would also believe the gear drive issue, you could unplug the knock sensor, make sure you have some good gas, and make a run with it at the track to eliminate that possibility if you can't find someone to log it for you. Good luck.

Vader

Was the air temperature, track temperature, and RH about the same for both runs?

AJ_92RS

You're a victim of doing too much all at once.

If you're interested in improving your 1/4 mile time, you should only make one change at a time. There are some exceptions to that rule, like changing to a bigger cam and better flowing intake at the same time only makes sense.

But changing cam, porting the plenum, using larger injectors, changing rear gears, and reprogramming the chip all at once makes it very difficult to find the heart of the problem.

First, the easiest thing to do is change the chip back to stock and see what happens. Then change the rear gears back. You're going to have to work backwards to eliminate the problem, one piece at a time.

Leif-o

iTrader: (1)

Most cammed cars are going to show knock. Mine does and I'm almost certain it is backing off timing. Your computer is seeing knock (detonation) which is usually caused by too much advance so it is backing off timing. The problem is your motor is probably not detonating but getting false knock from noise from the lope of the cam or noise from gear drive or anything else. If you are certain that you are not running too much compression then you could have them tune out the knock sensor so that your timing will be advanced all the time. Find a shop with any type of scanner and it should have a spot that says "knock----yes" If so then there could be a huge majority of your problem. By the way, killer 60' times. I'm runnin low 13's and pulling only 1.9x's. With a 60' like that you should be goin mid to low 12's if you can pull it on the big end.
The stealth ram would be a good idea I.M.O. I am running one and absolutely love it. I had 230 intake runner dart iron eagles (way to big), cc306 cam and stock throttle body and I went a 13.24. I can't wait to get my hands on a big throttle body. Good luck with your setup. Let us know what you find out!
----------
His car should be speed density only. No MAF.

1991CamaroRslow

iTrader: (3)

My bad I just noticed his car is a 1992. I guess the 25th Anniversery in his name should've given it away

urbanhunter44

iTrader: (3)

What's the duration in your cam? fwiw, I think your setup is horribly mismatched. 4.10s + big duration cam + TPI = slow

1991CamaroRslow

iTrader: (3)

How high are you revving through the traps? my car would barely do 8th mile with 4.10's, I end up turning around 5300 with 3.27's. I say either siamesse the crap out of your runners to get the thing to turn the RPM you need or put the old gears back in. The consensus on these forums is that 3.42 is about the max you want with the stock style long runner TPI setup. One member uses 3.73's and lets his car shift into 4th at the track, he has ran 12.9's on a supposedly stock unported TPI setup so you may want to look into that as well.

3rdgenZ

iTrader: (1)

go back to the old gears.

fun Pain

I vote for HSR time.... if you really want to drag race... you need rpms...
and TPI is a good way NOT to get rpms (atleast not air)....

sell the TPI/slp setup and get HSR or LT1 intake, they will love those gears

25thannivZ28

WOW, sorry for all the delayed responses...I finally got an email stating someone replied to this thread!! Well to answer all questions......

Im taking my car to TPIS in Chaska, MN in September, they will dyno tune my car! At this rate, bone stock camaro's are running better than my car is with all this **** done to mine!! I may consider buying their Mini-Ram set up to utilize the higher 4.10 gears vs. the stock 3.23's. Also would get rid of hte very restrictive TPI to utilize the higher rpm band given by my cam. Below are all my times at the track......

To start with my old mods listed as stock 350 block & Crank, comp cams camshaft w/.480 lift, Trickflow Twisted Wedge Heads & Built trans w/Drag radials. Stock 3.23 gears.I ran the following 2 times in August 05............sorry, scanner wouldn't show up clear enuf, so I just hand typed them here........

RUN 1 RUN 2
R/T... 0.142 .241
60'.....1.952 1.931
330....5.710 5.748
1/8.....8.886 8.937
mph....77.37 77.12
1000...11.647 11.706
1/4.....13.978 14.042
mph....96.60 96.81


With everything listed above, I added 24# injectors, 58mm BBK TB, 4.10Gears, Ported/matched upper plenum, gear drive, TPIS ZZ-409 camshaft & TPIS' Level IV prom....ran the following two times July 7th 06............

RUN 1 RUN 2
R/T.....0.140 0.159
60'......1.732 2.019
330.....5.629 5.931
1/8......8.870 9.196
mph.....76.45 75.37
1000....11.675 12.028
1/4......14.367 14.429
mph......94.89 94.07


Then I contacted Jim @ TPIS and he said "Send your prom back, gear drive is making noise retarding timing through the knock sensor.......he fixed and I reinstalled and went back on August 11th with these 2 times........

RUN 1 RUN 2
R/T....0.248 0.118
60'.....2.064 2.001
330....6.065 5.953
1/8....9.389 9.266
mph...73.92 74.16
1000..12.274 12.131
1/4....14.730 14.557
mph...91.77 92.76

My cam is TPIS' ZZ-409 camshaft.......
Hyd Roller:
Advertised Duration 287/287
Duration @.050 226/226
Gross Lift .520/.520
Lobe Seperation 112

BMmonteSS

And so the mail order shuffle begins......

Do yourself a huge favor and order prom burning equipment. There is no way they are going to be able to tune it via telepathy.

The gears are only hurthing you a tenth or two, they are NOT the reason you slowed down a half a second. You have over 100hp locked up in the tune.

Guest

Yea, look at that... lost 2MPH from a different tune because of something that obviously isnt the problem. What did they do, eliminate the knock sensor adjustments and run you into actual detonation and power loss city?
Fix the mismatches and a bit better tune and I bet the car will run like it should.

25thannivZ28

I tried the mail order crap, paid $500 bucks through TPIS and got the level IV prom......Im going to the TPIS plant in Minnesota and they are going to Engine Dyno tune it right there while I wait. I live in Milwaukee, WI so its only a 5hr drive. That was quoted to me as "Free of charge, cuz it comes with the price I paid for the mail order chip." Just going to cost me price of gas to get there and a night at the Super 8. And a case of beer.

25thannivZ28

Below are a listing of my times, had to investigate my RPM at the trap, but listed below in Bold are my RPMS + or - maybe 50rpms.


RUN 1 RUN 2
R/T... 0.142 .241
60'.....1.952 1.931
330....5.710 5.748
1/8.....8.886 8.937
mph....77.37 77.12
1000...11.647 11.706
1/4.....13.978 14.042
mph....96.60 96.81
RPM 4150 (3RD GEAR) 4150 (3RD GEAR) + / -

RUN 1 RUN 2
R/T.....0.140 0.159
60'......1.732 2.019
330.....5.629 5.931
1/8......8.870 9.196
mph.....76.45 75.37
1000....11.675 12.028
1/4......14.367 14.429
mph......94.89 94.07
RPM 5200 (3RD GEAR) 3700 (4TH GEAR)

RUN 1 RUN 2
R/T....0.248 0.118
60'.....2.064 2.001
330....6.065 5.953
1/8....9.389 9.266
mph...73.92 74.16
1000..12.274 12.131
1/4....14.730 14.557
mph...91.77 92.76
RPM 5000 (3RD GEAR) 3600 (4TH GEAR)

formul8!!

You are doing a couple of things wrong:

-First of all, you comment about "an expensive hobby" is because you are buying overpriced garbage from TPIS. You need to find someone with a laptop and data logging to tune it while driving, not just on a dyno.

-Second, your need the right tuning for the bigger cam and heads.

-Third, get rid of the gear drive. You need the knock sensor, just have it less sensitive. The gear drive will cause youproblems and a good double roller chain will last longer anyways.

-Fourth, I have always run slowest at Great Lakes. Always too much moisture in the air there. Your car hooks great, though

-Fifth, go back to 3.73's. a 4.10 gear is too much on the top end ofr a long runner set up.

D's89IROCZ

what about the fact it's a ZZ409 cam with a stock base ????

25thannivZ28

Yah, im leaning more towards swapping out that base, and the whole intake system. I just have to figure out if I wanna go Mini-ram or HSR. I've been researching. As soon as I get it all done, i'll post my results. Thanks for everyones input!!

formul8!!

The stock base is the biggest bottleneck in your entire system. You need to replace it to make anymore power.

1991CamaroRslow

iTrader: (3)

If you can get away with the HSR I would go with it. The price point difference is amazing. I plan to do the HSR once I've tapped out all the potential of my TPI setup.

bjankuski

I believe your intake is slowing you down but you still seem to be too slow for the mods that you have. I would expect a decient intake to add 30 to 50 HP to your set-up not 100+ hp that you seem to be missing.

I live in Wisconsin, I go to Great lakes Drag strip quite often, I can burn my own chips on a Chassis Dyno in Manitowoc, I have a combination that is similar to yours, and I am willing to help you out. Send me a private message with your e-mail address or phone number and I will contact you to try and work out your problems.

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

you have a big miss matched combo

if you want that cam in that motor, get rid of TPI as soon as possible. its gonna be too much trouble tryin to get that thing to run right.

second of all, i believe ur still on stock heads? that is not gonna get it done. even mildly ported is not enough for that cam.

but mainly ur intake is messing things up.

get rid of gear drive, no more gear than 3.42-3.73 at most, put back the knock sensor, and have them burn u a chip that doesnt pull as much timing out when the motor senses knock. at those hi rpms, the motor will pull 10-15 degrees of timing out! i had 87 ta set mine to only 3, granted my motor is stock

also check ur base timing... i wouldnt run too much on that. i got 10 degrees base on my stock l98...bigger cam might like 15-16 degrees on that motor but i'd shoot for 10-12 and see where that gets yah.

the tune is definately off. u need a dyno tune/data log scanner run of some sort.

your running slower than my stock L98 with just full exhaust! i cut 1.80 60's but should be improving on that shortly. lol ur car is dying off, mainly cuz i think ur tune is really far off and tpi/stock heads isnt helping that cam live

D's89IROCZ

He has trickflow heads

25thannivZ28

PM sent

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

well in that case with trick flow heads, for some reason i missed that part, then i'd say its ur stock base. u need more air for one

then its the fuel/tune. really need a dyno run with a/f or data log of some sort to really see if your lean or rich. check the plugs to see also. dial in that fuel. also try a new ignition system.

gears also are a factor but even with 4.10's it should running very hard all the way thru the 1/8 and 1/4...which its not.

25thannivZ28

This weekend, I had taken a degree wheel to my camshaft and noticed it was 16 degrees off!! I re-aligned it right in sync with the crankshaft and advanced to factory spec of 6 degrees so all is good. Stand by for results from the track. I'll be going to Great Lakes Dragaway hopefully soon. Tentatively looking at Friday the 22nd of Sept.

Special thanks to bjankuski for the idea of checking cam first!! Im now pullin hard to 6k in 1st and easily to 5500 in 2nd. Now I have to figure out how to change my shift points.

25thannivZ28

This was my best run, but not quite what I was hoping for!! Tires were slippin off the line (drag radials getting really bald) and was a foggy evening. Bad air quality. But on my recent venture to TPIS last weekend, I picked up they're Mini Ram, & MSD 6AL ignition & coil. Project for the winter. I'll let you know how that works out!!

R/T ...... .150
60' ....... 2.059
330....... 5.826
1/8....... 8.949
MPH...... 79.07
1000..... 11.650
1/4...... 13.951
mph..... 98