'89 superbird

Hi all,

Simple question here that I don't see answered by doing a search.

I am looking at putting in a zz4 cam and want to know the actual power band range . What RPM does it start to pull. I have a 2000 stall from a vette and want to make sure that the 2 are in sync.

thanks for the help

Scott

Abubaca

iTrader: (3)

What motor is it going in? For now I'll assume we're talking about an L98.

In my L98, I added headers and the ZZ4 cam at the same time. I lost a few hundred RPMs down low, and gained a few hundred up high. I have no dyno chart yet so I'm not gonna throw out actual numbers. With a better flowing intake, I'll bet it pulls to about 5500-5800.

I put in a B&M 2200 stall Holeshot and it's great! Since my car is not a daily driver, a 2800 might have been a tad better, but the 2200 is still a huge improvement. Plus with the TPI not flowing real high, I don't want to go tooooo high on the stall speed.

'89 superbird

It's an L98 that has ported plenum, slightly ported manifold and large tube runners. It has custom ram air intake.

It will get S/R torquer heads and I have headers going to high flo cat and 3" all the way back.

My only question is to make sure that the low end kicks in nicely with the 2000 stall. I know I will gain some decent high end over stock.

Any guesses what kind of rwhp this combo should pull

Chrome

If done right I'd say anywhere between 250-275rwhp. Maybe if your lucky and things go your way it'll be in the 300 area. If so thats LS1 stomping grounds

I'm dropping in a L98 w/ ZZ4, accel base, slp runners, headers - the usual. I'm hoping for mid to low 13's. I'm having the heads worked for valve guide clearance so I might try to do some pocket porting and work on the Short side radius. I'm hoping I can free up alittle. I just don't want to foot new heads right now.

I've still got to buy my TC but I'm seriously looking at the Edge 9.5" 2800 at like $525. Hopefully I dont' overshoot my powerband. I'll post results.

'89 superbird

that's my thought as well. 250 rwhp would be dissappointing as it is 209 going in before the cam, headers, heads and large tube runners. With tuning and getting it all to match up I am thinking 275+ but like you say, could get lucky and be closer to 300. Luckily I got the SFC's and suspension to handle it if it gets there or the frame would torque and twist all over.

Anybody else got similar with numbers

Abubaca

iTrader: (3)

There's a thread here on the TPI forum where 1989GTAtransam only got 300rwhp with a SUPER highly modified plenum and runners, 23 deg. TF heads, and all the goodies. Now 300 is awesome, but for the work, I think it really shows the restrictions of our "normal" high flow long tube runner set-ups.

Keep in mind that with all these mods we do, it increases HP, but does it at higher rpms. Well our TPI doesn't flow well up there, so you can't put together a list of parts and accurately project HP numbers without a lot of experience.

I'm a fan of the long tube runner TPI. I plan to make as much power with it as possible, but for all out HP, I hate to say that it's just not as good as some of the other intakes out there.

Chrome

Blower

'89 superbird

I hear ya on the other intakes, I just sold a converted LT1 intake that would have easily made 300 rwhp with same other mods.

Something about the tpi and runner setup under the hood that I like.

1989GTATransAm

iTrader: (3)

With the 700R4 it is harder to make 300RWHP than with a T-5 or T-6. You give up 5% right off the bat do to drive train losses. However I'm on the quest for 320RWHP or 400HP at the motor just to see if I can do it. I have had to fight for every HP along the way. My car is not a "factory freak" and it puts me to the test for every horsepower gained.

Hopefully your path will be easier than mine. You can see all the work I had to do to reach the 300+RWHP point with the 700R4. Maybe a First System can do it. I have not seen any dyno numbers for the First System.

By the way my next mod is the Yank SS3600 torque converter. It is supposed to have very good street manners. I was considering the Yank SS3200 but my torque numbers are more inline with an LS1 than a TPI with the my mods. The SS3600 is designed for the LS1 so I went with that. Allen

Abubaca

iTrader: (3)

If I had to guess, I'd put my RWHP number around 230. That's with a ZZ4 cam and headers/full exhaust. Figure 200rwhp from the L98 outta the factory.

That combo with a race built 700r4,2200 stall, and a 3.27 makes the car a lot of fun. It's no beast by any means, but it's a whole heck of a lot faster than it used to be. I've got some ported SLP runners and a ported plenum that'll go on top of a ported Accel manifold as well as some steel RR's that should add a few ponies, but should also add some RPM range, which I think will make the bigger difference.

Don't get too caught up in the numbers. I'm not near LS1 power, but on the street, my set-up can keep up. I didn't say "beat" by any means, but when my LS1 buddies and used to cruise, I couldn't even keep up. Now unless we're actually racing, you wouldn't know they're faster.

Allen, if you made 400 at the wheels, you'd do ALL of us LTR guys proud!

1989GTATransAm

iTrader: (3)

That would be 400Hp at the motor. No way could I do it at the rear wheels. Hehehe. Allen

'89 superbird

400 at the wheels would have to be blown or nitrous and even that might be pushing it

Abubaca

iTrader: (3)

I knew what I meant!

Captain C

If you look at the mods on my car it's similar to what 89 Superbird wants to do. With my 3" cutout open in front of the CAT, the ZZ4 cam only pulls hard to 5500 rpm, it's flat past 5500 to 5750 then dies but you don't gain anything by going that high anyway.

I was running an off brand 2500 rpm 12" stall convertor and I could only bring it up to about 1850 before it would overpower the brakes. It worked really well with 10* timing.

If you are going to go with the Edge 2800 rpm unit (which I have and love) you will probably be able to go up to 12* timing.

If you go with a 3500 rpm unit, you can try up to 16* of timing as the top end pull is considerably better, but the low end/midrange stinks. Anything past 16* timing and it will start to lay over on you.

On the street with a full exhaust (3" cat back, Hedman headers) it only pulls hard to 5200 rpm with the timing at 10*. It will still pull to 5500 rpm, but it's flat.

Keep in mind that my chip is nowhere near correct for this combo as I am way too rich at all points..... Next week I am on vacation and hope to get to do a lot of work on the car, albeit an old Navy buddy is dropping by before his impending move to New Hampshire.... I may still not get a lot done....

'89 superbird

Thanks for the input Captain C. Have you dyno'd your setup as it does sound very similar to what I am building?? I would be very happy to pull hard to 5000+ with this setup.

Let me know if you have dyno numbers for rwhp and torque

thanks

Scott

91Z28-350

I'm always curious as to why people say 5% due to an auto vs. manual or 15% for manual or auto or whatever. Maybe in stock config, but shouldn't the amount the driveline consumes be a fixed amount? Why is it a percentage. If you're making 1000rwhp for instance, it takes more power to turn the same driveline than it would if you were making 500rwhp? That doesn't seem to make any logical sense at all.

Captain C

I don't have dyno figures at this time but I may get some soon. There is a guy with a dyno that tunes cars just a few blocks from my house. Since my time is so limited, I may pay him to do the first tune and then take it from there myself. Hopefully; since I have a Prominator, he might cut me slack on the costs. I will want him to save me a copy of the bin file of course......

Tibo

iTrader: (15)

I like TPI also, but I say for building a car for street only driving, and not using it for the fastest time at the track, it is the best set up. Simply can not beat for the stop light to stoplight power or gas mileage. You can make a TPI scream for much less than conveting to a different style and building that up. I have seen 350 TPI's keep up with the LS1 corvettes in town, only in town though.

But if your concerns lie more with track times or racing down the local highway.....there are better.

Abubaca

iTrader: (3)

That is a REAL good point. I don't have an answer fo ya.

Captain C

I'm not sure the trans loss is a valid point anymore, at least not sine the invention of the lockup converter. Excuse me, that was 6% slippage that is no longer applicable.

The loss of horsepower would have to do with the power being used to force the hydraulic fluid through the transmission. You don't have that parasitic horsepower loss in a manual transmission.

Abubaca

iTrader: (3)

I understand the difference between the auto and the manual, but rather why would the loss be measured using a ballpark percentage? Why not a ballpark actual number?

If it takes 20% to move the tranny, then a 100 HP motor would lose 20 HP. A 1000 HP motor WOULD LOSE 200HP!!! What kind of tranny requires 200HP??? Sure, this is a ridiculous example, but it illustrates the point none the less.

There are so many variable that I totally understand there's no "REAL" way to put a number on it, but why not just say that an automatic will cost you about 45 HP and a manual will cost about 35 HP? (or whatever is more a better amount).

2new2funny

I've got a ZZ4 on a Vette. It will easily pull to 5K and has certainly resolved the flatness issues of the original cam. You'll be fine.

'89 superbird

Good to hear, can't wait the two weeks until we put it all together.

midnight383

Drivetrain loss is not based on a set amount to mechanically move/turn gears...its a RATIO, moreso based on the proportion of flywheel hp and hp at the wheels.

Since its a ratio and not a predetermined amount based on the force (torque) required to turn a gear, its proportional to the amount required to turn a SET of GEARS with different multipliers, those of which do not transfer all the power they receive.

Ever had a physics class with a pulley experiment? One that demonstrates raising a 10kg mass (~98 N) with a force less than 98 N because of a gear or pulley system? I'm not sure how relevant this example can be (brain lapse), but I hope it can at least lead you in the right direction with the discrepancies of parisitic drivetrain loss due to gears, etc...

A/T's lose more because they have gears AND clutches/clutchpacks which take additional power.

If a tranny only had one single gear/cog to turn, your assumption of a preset #hp to turn the drivetrain may be a bit more accurate, but that's a different case...