BBK TPI intake setup ($399.00)
#402
Supreme Member
iTrader: (3)
Joined: Sep 2003
Posts: 6,859
Likes: 14
From: Cypress, California
Car: 1989 GTA
Engine: 369 TPI
Transmission: 4L60E
Axle/Gears: 3.70 Nine Bolt
Re: BBK TPI intake setup ($399.00)
Let's not forget that BBK makes throttle bodies for our cars including a 58mm version. So you can bet it will be made to use one.
#403
Re: BBK TPI intake setup ($399.00)
From a design stand point I like the Ford intake better, way easier to mod and with a truck lower the intake can be taken a lot further. From a looks standpoint the TPI is hard to compete with. There's a reason why they're so popular with the street rodders. Hope to see this intake soon, curious as to what it looks like. Since they say a "stock" motor the power levels they are getting may be great or not as much so. Afterall, don't forget that from best to worse the cams have 20-25 degrees different intake duration, the ECU systems are very different in regards to adaptability. Without the AFRs being logged it could be extremely lean and leaving tons of top end power on the table, and we wouldn't be the wiser esp on a SD setup.
#404
Supreme Member
iTrader: (1)
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 2,642
Likes: 2
From: Pleasant Grove, Utah
Car: 1993 GMC Typhoon
Engine: 4.3 Turbo
Transmission: 4L60
Axle/Gears: 3.42
Re: BBK TPI intake setup ($399.00)
so if im following this right... and i would like to think that i am....
this intake made 211rwhp ... right? ok
the Z28 was rated at 245hp(at the crank) from the factory... take the drive train loss of the 700R4 of 20%..at you're at 196rwhp in stock form
so you guys got 211rwhp.. a gain of 15rwhp..
sooo...... you get 15rwhp or 265hp at the crank???
guess i'll just have to wait and see the results of a modified motor, but even then it will be subjective.. they need to take a car that has a cam,headers, cat back.. with a stock TPI system.. dyno it.. then pull off the stock intake and put theirs on.. leaving the fuel trims the same.. then dyno it... they redo the fuel trims (tune it) then report the #'s...
this intake made 211rwhp ... right? ok
the Z28 was rated at 245hp(at the crank) from the factory... take the drive train loss of the 700R4 of 20%..at you're at 196rwhp in stock form
so you guys got 211rwhp.. a gain of 15rwhp..
sooo...... you get 15rwhp or 265hp at the crank???
guess i'll just have to wait and see the results of a modified motor, but even then it will be subjective.. they need to take a car that has a cam,headers, cat back.. with a stock TPI system.. dyno it.. then pull off the stock intake and put theirs on.. leaving the fuel trims the same.. then dyno it... they redo the fuel trims (tune it) then report the #'s...
#405
Supreme Member
iTrader: (1)
Joined: May 2004
Posts: 2,262
Likes: 0
From: houston
Car: 83 POS monte carlo 2015 chevy P/U
Engine: 92 5.7 tpi 5.3
Transmission: 700r4 6L60E
Axle/Gears: 2.42 too high
Re: BBK TPI intake setup ($399.00)
you can't just go by peak numbers, take a look at the graphs in post 314. there isn't a big gain in peak power, & the peak torque is actually about 16 pounds lower with the BBK than it is with the stock intake.
its that with the BBK intake, horse power is still on the rise when the stock intake peaks at around 3900 RPM & the BBK peaks around 4400 & doesn't drop to the same peak power of the stock intake till around 4800 RPM. the BBK adds 50 horse power around 5100 RPM, 138 for the stock, 188 for the BBK.
the torque shows about the same increase at 5100, 143 for the stock, 194 for the BBK.
what this intake is doing is what the TPI needs, extending the useable RPM range
i do hope they make a vortec base for it.
its that with the BBK intake, horse power is still on the rise when the stock intake peaks at around 3900 RPM & the BBK peaks around 4400 & doesn't drop to the same peak power of the stock intake till around 4800 RPM. the BBK adds 50 horse power around 5100 RPM, 138 for the stock, 188 for the BBK.
the torque shows about the same increase at 5100, 143 for the stock, 194 for the BBK.
what this intake is doing is what the TPI needs, extending the useable RPM range
i do hope they make a vortec base for it.
#406
Joined: Sep 2004
Posts: 5,871
Likes: 222
From: Chicagoland Suburbs
Car: 1989 Trans Am GTA
Engine: LT1, AFR 195cc, 231/239 LE cam.
Transmission: M28 T56
Axle/Gears: 3.23 10bolt waiting to explode.
Re: BBK TPI intake setup ($399.00)
you can't just go by peak numbers, take a look at the graphs in post 314. there isn't a big gain in peak power, & the peak torque is actually about 16 pounds lower with the BBK than it is with the stock intake.
its that with the BBK intake, horse power is still on the rise when the stock intake peaks at around 3900 RPM & the BBK peaks around 4400 & doesn't drop to the same peak power of the stock intake till around 4800 RPM. the BBK adds 50 horse power around 5100 RPM, 138 for the stock, 188 for the BBK.
the torque shows about the same increase at 5100, 143 for the stock, 194 for the BBK.
what this intake is doing is what the TPI needs, extending the useable RPM range
i do hope they make a vortec base for it.
its that with the BBK intake, horse power is still on the rise when the stock intake peaks at around 3900 RPM & the BBK peaks around 4400 & doesn't drop to the same peak power of the stock intake till around 4800 RPM. the BBK adds 50 horse power around 5100 RPM, 138 for the stock, 188 for the BBK.
the torque shows about the same increase at 5100, 143 for the stock, 194 for the BBK.
what this intake is doing is what the TPI needs, extending the useable RPM range
i do hope they make a vortec base for it.
Most TPI 350 cars have transmissions calibrated to upshift at about 4500rpm. My stock 700r4 upshifted at 4500 on the tach, and then dropped to about 3500, and repeated. When I put the trans go shift kit in it, with the other stuff it started shifting at 5000rpm, and recovering at about 4000. So TPI's grunt is really only apparent at launch, and when cruising.
#407
Supreme Member
iTrader: (15)
Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 5,025
Likes: 76
From: Desert
Car: 1991 Z28 Vert
Engine: 383 single plane efi
Transmission: T-56
Axle/Gears: 8.8 with 3.73s
Re: BBK TPI intake setup ($399.00)
Does anybody else here know that since this thread started Professional Products came out with a new sbc efi intake and the tpi throttle bodies? The intake is basically a single plane they plumbed for efi, and sell a fuel rail kit for it. You could get the kit, intake and TB with less money than you will probably pay for this "new" intake. You will make more power with the professional products and have it in however long it takes to ship it too. My two cents I think you all have been crazy to give this intake the time and attention.
As for the R and D thing, then why were there new intakes/superchargers availible for the new mustangs 6 mo after they came out? Why could you buy new cams for any LS engine almost the same time they came out?
As for the R and D thing, then why were there new intakes/superchargers availible for the new mustangs 6 mo after they came out? Why could you buy new cams for any LS engine almost the same time they came out?
#408
Joined: Jul 1999
Posts: 10,947
Likes: 21
From: Orange, SoCal
Car: 1990 Pontiac Trans Am
Engine: 355 TPI siamesed runners
Transmission: Tremec T56
Axle/Gears: 12-Bolt 3.73
Re: BBK TPI intake setup ($399.00)
Yes, but those intakes you mentioned do not have provisions for EGR, which some of us have to have. We're hoping this BBK intake has EGR and will be made 50-state legal.
Ford released the specs and provided several new Mustangs to the aftermarket for them to create new products for, so they would be available at the same time the Mustangs launched.
The first new cams for LS1 engines were reground big block chevy cams. It wasnt until sometime in 1998, after the LS1 engine had been out for over a year, that specific LS1 camshaft were made.
Ford released the specs and provided several new Mustangs to the aftermarket for them to create new products for, so they would be available at the same time the Mustangs launched.
The first new cams for LS1 engines were reground big block chevy cams. It wasnt until sometime in 1998, after the LS1 engine had been out for over a year, that specific LS1 camshaft were made.
#410
Supreme Member
iTrader: (1)
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 4,627
Likes: 3
From: Houston Area
Car: Faster
Engine: Than
Transmission: You!
Re: BBK TPI intake setup ($399.00)
We should just quit posting about this until BBK does something. It's obvious that this project maybe important to us but it does not seem like a priority on their part.
Just an observation....
Just an observation....
#411
Re: BBK TPI intake setup ($399.00)
I think we need a BBK contact e-mail address. Something direct if possible, maybe to the director of the R&D dept. Hint Hint.
Dont forget this guy said NO ONE at BBK knew about this thread until he STUMBLED on it. These are mostly Mustang guys were talking about. Most of them could give a hoot about the 3rd Gen F-Body. We just have to appeal to the shared love we all have....money.
Dont forget this guy said NO ONE at BBK knew about this thread until he STUMBLED on it. These are mostly Mustang guys were talking about. Most of them could give a hoot about the 3rd Gen F-Body. We just have to appeal to the shared love we all have....money.
#414
Supreme Member
iTrader: (2)
Joined: Nov 2000
Posts: 1,021
Likes: 0
From: Newington, CT
Car: 88 IROC
Engine: 5.7 RamJet
Transmission: T56
Axle/Gears: Dana44 4.10
Re: BBK TPI intake setup ($399.00)
It's not a simple bolt on and go. You'd need a TB, and a way to connect the two.
#415
Re: BBK TPI intake setup ($399.00)
I just sent the proto intake out to get photo'd for the new catalog.
We still need to test it on a built motor and of course there are lots of little details to work out before it hits the streets.
We are still working on it.
We still need to test it on a built motor and of course there are lots of little details to work out before it hits the streets.
We are still working on it.
#416
Supreme Member
iTrader: (3)
Joined: Sep 2003
Posts: 6,859
Likes: 14
From: Cypress, California
Car: 1989 GTA
Engine: 369 TPI
Transmission: 4L60E
Axle/Gears: 3.70 Nine Bolt
Re: BBK TPI intake setup ($399.00)
Thats good news. I know quite a few people waiting for it hoping it will be superior to what is on the market. Most of us are not impressed with the Edelbrock TPI intake. It leaves a lot to be desired. If yours is designed correctly you will take over the market overnight. With the internet word will spread quickly.
PS: The Accel Superam uses the Edelbrock intake and that is the weak spot in that system. I understand from your prior post that your intake system somewhat resembles it. You have a golden opportunity please don't waste it.
PS: The Accel Superam uses the Edelbrock intake and that is the weak spot in that system. I understand from your prior post that your intake system somewhat resembles it. You have a golden opportunity please don't waste it.
#418
Supreme Member
iTrader: (7)
Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 3,740
Likes: 10
From: Alamogordo, NM
Car: 88 Formula 350
Engine: 5.7
Transmission: T-56
Axle/Gears: 9" 3.89
Re: BBK TPI intake setup ($399.00)
I have a super ram. When I get another project car in about a year, I may have to get this Intake setup.
#419
Member
Joined: Sep 2005
Posts: 136
Likes: 1
From: Jackson, Michigan
Car: '87 IROC Z w/43,000 miles
Engine: 305 F code motor
Transmission: 4 speed auto
Axle/Gears: 3.73
Re: BBK TPI intake setup ($399.00)
#420
Re: BBK TPI intake setup ($399.00)
Figured I'd bump it up, and see if any word has come out about it.
Any time frame Bryan? I know its hard to say, but I'm sure there are a lot of guys looking for a winter project like myself. I don't know too many people that would want to install one in the middle of the summer.
Any time frame Bryan? I know its hard to say, but I'm sure there are a lot of guys looking for a winter project like myself. I don't know too many people that would want to install one in the middle of the summer.
#423
Member
Joined: Oct 2002
Posts: 186
Likes: 0
From: st.paul minnesota
Car: IROC Z
Engine: 355 MINIram w/boost
Transmission: T56
Re: BBK TPI intake setup ($399.00)
this is like a long movie.... just get to the ending
im not in the market currently, but i AM excited to see the intake!
Im assuming this intake would work on a non TPI 350 as long as the traditional conversion steps are takin?
im not in the market currently, but i AM excited to see the intake!
Im assuming this intake would work on a non TPI 350 as long as the traditional conversion steps are takin?
#425
Member
Joined: Oct 2002
Posts: 186
Likes: 0
From: st.paul minnesota
Car: IROC Z
Engine: 355 MINIram w/boost
Transmission: T56
Re: BBK TPI intake setup ($399.00)
just saw BBK on horsepowerTV, they showed the new intake base in the begining stages....
anyone else see that?
My sig rockit? thanks
anyone else see that?
My sig rockit? thanks
#429
Supreme Member
iTrader: (2)
Joined: Mar 2002
Posts: 2,516
Likes: 4
From: San Antonio TX
Car: 1990 G92 IROC Z Miniram
Engine: 388cu 6.4 Liters
Transmission: G-Force T5
Axle/Gears: 3.73 Gears
Re: BBK TPI intake setup ($399.00)
Goto http://www.horsepowertv.com/
You could at least see the manifold. It looks like the FIRST manifold. It also has an EGR setup in the same location.
Let the main video play then you will see the manifold.
You could at least see the manifold. It looks like the FIRST manifold. It also has an EGR setup in the same location.
Let the main video play then you will see the manifold.
Last edited by VincentZ28; 10-20-2007 at 04:21 PM.
#430
Supreme Member
iTrader: (3)
Joined: Sep 2003
Posts: 6,859
Likes: 14
From: Cypress, California
Car: 1989 GTA
Engine: 369 TPI
Transmission: 4L60E
Axle/Gears: 3.70 Nine Bolt
Re: BBK TPI intake setup ($399.00)
You right Vincent. It does remind one of the First Intake Manifold. This BBK setup could be a real winner. I was able to stop the presentation and look it over pretty good. Now if one could see the runner entrance and the head entrance.
Looks like all the work I did to modify the First Intake manifold they had already incorporated it on the BBK intake manifold. I will be interested in the runners and plenum. This could be the death of the Edelbrock TPI setup and the rest of them for that matter.
Now Vincent all you have to do is to convince them to use your car for testing. They might be able to get 500hp at the motor out of it with the proper porting.
Looks like all the work I did to modify the First Intake manifold they had already incorporated it on the BBK intake manifold. I will be interested in the runners and plenum. This could be the death of the Edelbrock TPI setup and the rest of them for that matter.
Now Vincent all you have to do is to convince them to use your car for testing. They might be able to get 500hp at the motor out of it with the proper porting.
#431
Joined: Feb 2001
Posts: 8,383
Likes: 368
From: Sophia, NC
Car: 2016 Camaro SS + ???
Re: BBK TPI intake setup ($399.00)
Well, it looks pretty good, but there's only so much to see of course from a screen shot.
I'm not sure if I've already said this, since this thread is forever old, but for me it needs to perform at least "pretty good", be cost effective, and look good. To date, IMO, there's not an intake that does all three.
I'm not sure if I've already said this, since this thread is forever old, but for me it needs to perform at least "pretty good", be cost effective, and look good. To date, IMO, there's not an intake that does all three.
#432
Supreme Member
iTrader: (2)
Joined: Mar 2002
Posts: 2,516
Likes: 4
From: San Antonio TX
Car: 1990 G92 IROC Z Miniram
Engine: 388cu 6.4 Liters
Transmission: G-Force T5
Axle/Gears: 3.73 Gears
Re: BBK TPI intake setup ($399.00)
I don't give a damn about how it looks. As long as it works. It's all good with me. Just hope it's an easy install.
#434
Joined: Jul 1999
Posts: 10,947
Likes: 21
From: Orange, SoCal
Car: 1990 Pontiac Trans Am
Engine: 355 TPI siamesed runners
Transmission: Tremec T56
Axle/Gears: 12-Bolt 3.73
Re: BBK TPI intake setup ($399.00)
I like how the narrator said they were working on an LS1 intake, and then the worker said it was a tuned port intake.
#435
Moderator
Joined: Feb 2000
Posts: 7,015
Likes: 1
From: Schererville , IN
Car: 91 GTA, 91 Formula, 89 TTA
Engine: all 225+ RWHP
Transmission: all OD
Axle/Gears: Always the good ones
Re: BBK TPI intake setup ($399.00)
Looks like a purty big ****.
I wont complain if its affordable, course LS series looks better and better lol
I wont complain if its affordable, course LS series looks better and better lol
#436
TGO Supporter
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 4,991
Likes: 1
From: Cheyenne, Wyoming
Car: 1992 B4C 1LE
Engine: Proaction 412, Accel singleplane
Transmission: built 700R4 w/custom converter
Axle/Gears: stock w/later 4th gen torsen pos
Re: BBK TPI intake setup ($399.00)
I did make one observation. Sure it is in unfinished form, but the straight intake lines on each side indicate a possible L31/Vortec fitment option...
#438
Supreme Member
iTrader: (3)
Joined: Sep 2003
Posts: 6,859
Likes: 14
From: Cypress, California
Car: 1989 GTA
Engine: 369 TPI
Transmission: 4L60E
Axle/Gears: 3.70 Nine Bolt
Re: BBK TPI intake setup ($399.00)
I wonder how they are going to bolt the runners on. Maybe one top middle and two outside bottom. If that is the case the top middle would have to come in from the backside.
Hard to say without having one in hand but maybe the runners could use some more metal around them. Not sure how far you can open them up from the picture. Maybe they are big enough already.
Thanks Axoid for posting the pictures.
Hard to say without having one in hand but maybe the runners could use some more metal around them. Not sure how far you can open them up from the picture. Maybe they are big enough already.
Thanks Axoid for posting the pictures.
Last edited by 1989GTATransAm; 10-21-2007 at 04:13 PM.
#441
Senior Member
Joined: Apr 2004
Posts: 587
Likes: 0
From: Calif
Car: 75 Vette
Engine: 406 TPI
Transmission: 700 R-4
Axle/Gears: 373
Re: BBK TPI intake setup ($399.00)
Bryan Rogers
Junior Member
Member Since: Jun 2007
My Corvette Photos
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The Horsepower TV thing was a tour of the shop with a very general overview packe into a less than 5 minute segment.
The lower intake for the TPI intake was shown as something that was being worked on in our in-house pattern shop.
The idea was to show the viewers that we have an in-house pattern shop, not to focus in on or promote the TPI intake.
As I have stated before, I will post pics here of the set-up as soon as the boss says O.K.
This was posted on the corvette web site
Junior Member
Member Since: Jun 2007
My Corvette Photos
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The Horsepower TV thing was a tour of the shop with a very general overview packe into a less than 5 minute segment.
The lower intake for the TPI intake was shown as something that was being worked on in our in-house pattern shop.
The idea was to show the viewers that we have an in-house pattern shop, not to focus in on or promote the TPI intake.
As I have stated before, I will post pics here of the set-up as soon as the boss says O.K.
This was posted on the corvette web site
#443
Member
Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 339
Likes: 0
From: costa mesa/A.D. the largest Emirate
Car: 88 Formula 350
Engine: 5----->.7 or so they say
Transmission: seven hundred with a remainder of 4
Axle/Gears: 9 bolt 3.27
Re: BBK TPI intake setup ($399.00)
The suspense is killing me !!
I wonder how this is going to compare to the first when it comes to runner to plenum design. It does seem like there is a bit of room on that mani to port out but not too much.
We shall wait and see............
Rabi C.
I wonder how this is going to compare to the first when it comes to runner to plenum design. It does seem like there is a bit of room on that mani to port out but not too much.
We shall wait and see............
Rabi C.
#444
Joined: Sep 2003
Posts: 25,779
Likes: 376
From: Pittsburgh PA
Car: 89 Iroc-z
Engine: 555 BBC Turbo
Transmission: TH400
Axle/Gears: Strange 12 bolt 3.42
Re: BBK TPI intake setup ($399.00)
$1000 for a TPI intake?
#445
Member
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 206
Likes: 0
From: maryland
Car: 91 maro
Engine: 350
Transmission: 700r4
Axle/Gears: 373 locker
Re: BBK TPI intake setup ($399.00)
ford intakes are gay i love the way the tpi looks my cars tbi but iam ready for the change over to tpi.
----------
is this just the base there building or base runners plenum any one no the rpm range?
----------
is this just the base there building or base runners plenum any one no the rpm range?
Last edited by stevo the torpe; 10-21-2007 at 11:02 PM. Reason: Automerged Doublepost
#446
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 10,124
Likes: 429
From: Hurst, Texas
Car: 1983 G20 Chevy
Engine: 305 TPI
Transmission: 4L60
Axle/Gears: 14 bolt with 3.07 gears
Re: BBK TPI intake setup ($399.00)
I hope they have a L30/L31 Vortec head type fitment option. I could use one on my 396 build rather than a single plane manifold.
#448
Re: BBK TPI intake setup ($399.00)
Axoid,
Thanks for the still pics.
The BBK base looks to still have the pinch area from the fuel rail mount to the injector boss, so it will flow about the same as a Edelbrock no more.
And yes I have had Edelbrocks, Extrude honed Edelbrocks and first units on a Flow bench.
Jerry
Thanks for the still pics.
The BBK base looks to still have the pinch area from the fuel rail mount to the injector boss, so it will flow about the same as a Edelbrock no more.
And yes I have had Edelbrocks, Extrude honed Edelbrocks and first units on a Flow bench.
Jerry
#449
Supreme Member
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 1,213
Likes: 3
From: Norwich, CT
Car: '89 Trans AM/'88 GTA
Engine: (2) Tuned Port L98's
Re: BBK TPI intake setup ($399.00)
#450
Re: BBK TPI intake setup ($399.00)
Based on info cut and pasted from a few of Bryan's posts off the Corvette Forum, the runners are not going to bolt to the base,,, they're push fit with O-rings.
“It assembles as follows
Lower intake to block
Stock fuel rails, EGR, etc.. to lower.
Tubes push fit into lower (seal with O-rings)
Base plate for upper sits on risers that sit on the fuel rail mounting bolts. Longer fuel rail bolts are used. Tubes O-ring push into base plate.
Upper manifold sits on base plate. “
“It'll be steel tubes, a cast aluminum lower, and more than likely a die cast upper/bottom plate.”
“(Runner Length) Right @14" measuring from the mouth where the tubes connect to the upper manifold and down to the cylinder head.”
Previous Post on TGO – “It's a large, open plenum with 1-3/4" tube runners that bend down into an all new lower intake with larger than stock ports.”
I doubt this thing will prove much better if any over the SuperRam as far as out-of-the-box overall performance. Especially with the same ole pinch point as Jerry indicated earlier. The improvement (over the SuperRam) looks to be in the install with the press fit on the runners. However, that means you can’t open up the intake base where the runner slip in. I’d guess the 1.75" runners (outside?) are going to be about the same inside diameter of the ASM LTRs. If that’s the case, it’ll probably make similar and peak power somewhere in between an edelbrock base with semi-siamesed ASM runners and the SuperRam – based on the BBK’s 14” length measurement.
I’m not knocking it,,, sounds like it’ll be a good bolt on intake for moderately modified engines and if the price is any where close to $500, they’ll sell very well. It just doesn’t look like (at this point) any one with welded Edelbrock or FIRST intakes will be trading them in for this one.
“It assembles as follows
Lower intake to block
Stock fuel rails, EGR, etc.. to lower.
Tubes push fit into lower (seal with O-rings)
Base plate for upper sits on risers that sit on the fuel rail mounting bolts. Longer fuel rail bolts are used. Tubes O-ring push into base plate.
Upper manifold sits on base plate. “
“It'll be steel tubes, a cast aluminum lower, and more than likely a die cast upper/bottom plate.”
“(Runner Length) Right @14" measuring from the mouth where the tubes connect to the upper manifold and down to the cylinder head.”
Previous Post on TGO – “It's a large, open plenum with 1-3/4" tube runners that bend down into an all new lower intake with larger than stock ports.”
I doubt this thing will prove much better if any over the SuperRam as far as out-of-the-box overall performance. Especially with the same ole pinch point as Jerry indicated earlier. The improvement (over the SuperRam) looks to be in the install with the press fit on the runners. However, that means you can’t open up the intake base where the runner slip in. I’d guess the 1.75" runners (outside?) are going to be about the same inside diameter of the ASM LTRs. If that’s the case, it’ll probably make similar and peak power somewhere in between an edelbrock base with semi-siamesed ASM runners and the SuperRam – based on the BBK’s 14” length measurement.
I’m not knocking it,,, sounds like it’ll be a good bolt on intake for moderately modified engines and if the price is any where close to $500, they’ll sell very well. It just doesn’t look like (at this point) any one with welded Edelbrock or FIRST intakes will be trading them in for this one.
Last edited by BadSS; 10-22-2007 at 06:10 AM.