Maximus

Does the airfoil just sit there? It seems that I have to hurry and put the rubber piece back on the "TB" before the airfoil falls out. Is that how it install's? It seems like it will fall out while I'm driving?

ThirdGenFire

No, there should be a screw and a insert with it. That is supposed hold it on there.

MrDude_1

some of them just slip/clip in there and cant come out because the air hose around the throttle body is holding them on....


but it doesnt matter anyway.... airfoils dont help ya make power.. another BS mod that they sell that ripps off people

D Stroy H8

It isn't BS. It also isn't a power making mod until your stock TB is choking your engine. It works tho, and a few CFMs are still a few CFMs. I wouldn't trust a clip on TB Foil. I'd chuck it and get a screw in type.

robsgta

TPI' specialties dyno shows a 7 horsepower increase @ 5000 rpm on a stock 350 tpi. 2 horse @ 2000 rpms The more cfm's that flow through the air foil the more effective they become, especially on a heavier modified motor. Its not much but it is a step in the right direction.
I totally agree with D stroy I would get a solid metal air foil and screw it in place.(also use loc tight red) Why risk having one that is cheaply made or might move out of place hendering air flow.

Have you done any more mods to your intake to flow more air??



$$$ It COSTS to be the BOSS $$$$

UmmaGumma

I totally disagree with both of you. I have a bone stock 350 TPI with a TPIS air foil that I installed in hopes of a few extra cheap horsies and didn't feel a darn thing. Sometimes I think it made it even worse.

Don't do it.. TOTAL waste of $$$ and the 5 minutes it takes to install.

D Stroy H8

You are not going to "feel" 5 RWHP. Unless you have superhuman nerve endings in your buttocks.

The flow bench does not lie. Stock 48mm throttle bodies pick up an avg of 10-12 CFM with the use of an airfoil.

MrDude_1

not to make this in a bashing thread but look at it this way:

air foils cost between 35-60.... on summit they're all around 50. http://store.summitracing.com/defaul...t=air+foil+TPI

now, for the cost of a airfoil, you could spend the money on somthing to have much more gain.


ok, so lets say you have a heavily modded motor, far far from stock, and you have everything else done... then you might want to toss it on for kicks.




but UmmaGumma is a perfect example of the problem im talking about... with all the advertising and people talking about air foils, its basicly conning people out of their money... making them think there will be a gain, when infact they see/feel none. 7hp may be enough to mow my lawn, but when you have it in a 3500lb car on the strip, you get the same gains as if you unbolted the passenger seat.

if it works or not has nothing to do with the fact that i call it a bullsh!t mod. it has alot more to do with the fact that it costs alot of money for minimal gain, while giving people the false impression that it does more.

robsgta

Duhhhhhhhhhhh
Every one knows that the biggest restriction On a TPI motor is its inability to breathe. (get air) From the begining of the air filter intake to the the bottom of the intake manifold .
Maximus I hope you continue to add small things to your motor like a foil,remove screens,dremel your plenum,K&N filter etc etc . some of these guys need to work a second job( a paper route, drive and ice cream truck any thing) so that they can get it out of there heads that every thing is a conspiracy to trick them into spending on nickel and dime mods.
Umma by the way you would be gifted if you could feel 5 to 7 horse. Realisticaly a 50 horse increase might be somthing you can feel but definately something you can see make a time change in a quarter mile run.

formularpm

My thoughts exactly. Mine even came free with the throttle body.

MrDude_1

Duuuh... thats the biggest restriction on anymotor... because no matter how much air you stuff in there, you could always put more in. (until it gets to the point when it compresses to a solid... or the point where so much fuel is needed that it hydrolocks the motor)


in anycase, everyone DOESNT know that. i just feel bad for the noobs and kids saving up for a month, only to waste it on a foil or some other minimal gain mod. it isnt from conspiracy .. just a combo of advertising and lack of knowlage.

Maximus

Thanx everyone, I bought the jet performance Airfoil just because I bought thier Stage 2 chip. I just thought that it could hurt to have better air flow! Thanx for all the advice:hail:

MrDude_1

their chip also falls under my definition of a BS mod...

not picking on you or anything, but its just a good example... that money could have been better spend elsewhere. with far better results.

if its not too late, id swap back to the stock chip, and return both the chip and the foil.. then get some headers... or something else that will show some improvement.

robsgta

Hey maximus check out this link

https://www.thirdgen.org/newdesign/tech/tpimod1.shtml
This is your best bet to follow I started at an embarrasing stock 14.79 to a 13.9 and it all costed me about 1700 bucks when I bolted on a set of edelbrocks heads(1100) that I ported I ran a 13.3@106 with a stock short block

UmmaGumma

I understand not being able to "feel" 5-7 hp, you're not really going to "feel" anything less than 20. It's the different perks that are advertised either in ads or from reviews too..
"... pulls harder"
"... better gas mileage"

Mine doesn't pull any harder and I actually went down in mpg.. so go figure.

I whole heartedly agree on gtting the $$ back on the foil and chip and sinking it into some headers.

Now headers.. you can definitely "feel" the difference.. especially mated with a good non restrictive exhaust system.

Maximus

Beautifull, Thank you! It's too late to return the stuff, I just spent alot of money on paint, and wheels. So I bought this stuff until I'm ready to really get into the engine build process. It may be awhile cause the girlfriend wants a ring That's alright w/ me! I need to get a house w/ a garage!!!!!! She runs great now! Except the chip! When I first put it in the car, the car wanted to die! I called Jet and they said to check all of the connections. Next un-rainy day I will do that but I told my buddy my story, and for his fordlightning, he had to scuff the protective wax on the stock chip? Does that sound right? Anyway, we'll see what happens!
http://members.cardomain.com/maximusz

UmmaGumma

I do real estate.. take may advice. Get the house w/ Garage BEFORE the ring. You'll own it all yourself in severalty.. Good move to fall back on.

If there's wax covering the pins of the chip, then no connection's being made. Need to expose that metal.

jfreeman74

I'm not going to say that the airfoil is the greatest thing in the world but lets look at the HP/$$ ratio. You can get an airfoil for $35 and it makes 5HP(or it did on my car). A good set of headers and a catback is going to be around $1500 and it will make about 40 RWHP. That all comes out to be $7/HP on the airfoil and $37.50 on the headers and catback. I would say the airfoil is worth the money. You're not going to feel it but if you are trying to squeek every ounce of HP out of your car at the lowest price, that isn't a bad mod.

CaptPicardsZ28

I didnt know an airfoil added cfms... My understanding of its function was to smooth out the incoming air that is rushing into the throttle body thereby increasing hp a little. Thats why it is shaped the way it is.

D Stroy H8

Yeah - a 48MM TB w/o an airfoil will flow about 10-12 CFM less. Just the throttle body tho... so on a stock car it helps only very little. On an L98 that is choking thru the 48mm TB, an airfoil will actually produce some significant gain.

Red Devil

Uh-huh, until they re-fi and it will cause some serious strain if she isn’t on the title, maybe leading to a divorce if it festers. If they divorce, she then has a claim to part of it, particularly if she helps in payment of the mortgage.

Or they re-fi and are both put on the title and will nevertheless be listed as tenants by entirety as it makes sense legally and is the only choice with regard to estate taxes. They then would most likely place a homestead on said house if it is their primary residence (requirement in most states). He should probably get the ring and both of them put down on the house.

If they are not getting married and will be sharing the mortgage, they can be listed as tenants in common. They will still be jointly and severally liable for the mortgage, however, any liens for one will not be bound to the other’s equity.

How about this, if he’s worried about it he can find an attorney who actually does this sort of thing to advise him.

Now for the airfoil, if anything it will stop the turbulence just prior to the throttle body. Less turbulence means smoother flow. Every little bit helps. If it does not make an impact now, it will down the road as the modifications increase.

ThirdGenFire

I bought my air foil for $50 from Hypertech. It didn't feel a darn thing but I know its helping. I mean we have all seen the ditch that the TB has the air hits that darn trench, probably bounces back and then into the plenum. I didn't feel anything like I stated but I am sure I will need it if I keep modding the car.

UmmaGumma

Well put.. But I'd still go for the house before the ring.

david roush

iTrader: (1)

I can't find the thread on here, but awhile back someone on here had a vette and daily access to a dyno. I remember he did three or four different mods and dyno'd the car before and after. I remember he got an extra 3 hp gain by putting an msd 6a ignition box in, and gained 1 hp by putting an air foil in. Now if you think about it, a new msd box will run you new, $160 ......and w/ a 3 hp gain that's about $53 per 1 hp which is about what you'de pay for an air foil. Now IMO i ain't wastin' my time nor $50 clams for 1 hp , but it does equal itself out if you look at it in those terms.

rezinn

The $/hp argument does typically go in favor of the airfoil, but people still insist it is a waste. Some of us have made our own air foils. I have a mold in my garage based on the slp airfoil to make them, I've made about 4 just for kicks and resold the real airfoil. Net cost for all 4: about 3 hours and $7.00 for hardware and some 15-hour hardening liquid metal. I think the enjoyment I got from doing it on my own more than paid for that.

jfreeman74

That shows that different mods affect different cars differently. I go $4/HP out of my airfoil but I only paid $20 for it. You can get an airfoil for under $35. That would have made it $7/HP. I don't know that I would pay more than that though. Also, it's a little hard to judge the airfoil by the dyno numbers because the car is not moving and unless you are on a dyno in a wind tunnel you're not going to see the maximum performance from an airfoil.

1989GTATransAm

iTrader: (3)

I saw a dyno test by someone on the site here where there was a before and after test of the airfoil. The first test showed some little bumps on the graph with out the airforil. The next dyno run was with the airfoil installed. The lines on the graph were smooth and the little bumps were gone. Did the peak hp and torque change? No. However it looked like there was a very small amount of power increase across the board because the dips were gone. I bought an airfoil and installed it on my car. Allen

D Stroy H8

That is not accurate. For all intents and purposes a dyno is the road, and measures power accurately and consistently. The only mod a dyno cannot measure gains for would be a ram air system, and sometimes an intercooler cannot get the air it needs to max cooling for a turbo or supercharger. However, an airfoil is smoothing out the intake flow through the trhottle body - regardless of actual state of motion.

jfreeman74

So you're saying that the engine is getting the same amount of air sitting on the dyno as it is on the street? If that is the case why do that bother putting a fan in front of the car? The more air that is moving through the TB the more the airfoil should affect that air. For my car, when I put the airfoil in I could tell a difference in the throttle responce. That is what I am referring to as not being able to get the most out of it on the dyno.

MrDude_1

the only time i see them put a fan infront of the car is to blow air over the intercooler, or sometimes to help it cool down faster between runs.


btw, the dyno isnt accurate to 1hp. any "gain" that you see thats a low number, is basicly bullsh!t. you cant measure it that consistant.. the dyno isnt that accurate.

Roads88

Guy next door went to a big throttle body on his 85 Vet, so he gave me his air foil. There was inprovement in throttle response but that was about it.

I got mine for free so I have no stake in this. Is it worth the money? tos a coin.

I, also, have a free flowing exhaust so the big air restrictor is gone. So the air foil may work a little better (more air movement more turbalance)

robsgta

In (project blue thunder)a set of dyno max jet hot coated headers was installed cost 457 dollars. The amount of work involved shouldnt even be tried by a beginner in my opinion. (tools used to help this install a torch,mig welder,saws all,angled ratchet) two spark plug wires had to replaced with 90 deg. boots and a few brackets modified expect a bolt or two to be broken in the head from the maniflold removal mine did.

HEADERS/Results 6 horse 12 ft lbs of torque. 457.00
AIRFOIL/ Results 7 horse 6.5 ft lbs of torque 45.00

The way I look at it is If a part helps your car perform buy it purchase what you can when the cash is there. If your crying about cost now then I bet you will be the same guy crying when the others leave you in there dust.

Paid my gta off a couple years ago
stroker motor parts top to bottom 4700
transmission&torque converter 1400
suspension parts 1000
dot slicks 400

The look on the guys face driving a new 47k vette after you beat him
PRICELESS.

nick418

it added 5 tp 6hp on my camaro.. I think its worth it... Like one of u said, u need to try to squeeze in to squeeze in as much HP that u can

D Stroy H8

Well... they put a fan in front of my car to use the airdam to keep the car cool during and b/w runs. Whther or not the car is moving will not affect the amount of air it is pulling through the closed system that we refer to as the induction system. The engine pulls air in faster than everything except a supercharger or turbo. An airfoil will not be affected... it is a mod that can be tested like many others on a simple engine dyno, you don't even need a car!

omcrider

I always found it amusing when people (umma gumma) think they can throw on a performance part like a chip, air foil, flowmaster, K&N filter, or any of these other small mods and think that its going to change the car from being slow to suddenly being fast.

I find it equally irritating when some other people try to tell you its a total waste (MrDude) of money and time.

Look no one should expect any serious gains from a bolt on part. Whether it be an airfoil, chip, headers, or whatever. You also should look at any claimed HP gains from the MFG. and maybe figure half that. They test these parts on various cars with different setups then they can legally claim the highest HP gain they achieved using that one part and often these are bench tested at the flywheel, and not always rear wheel hp gains on your exact setup. So be realistic.

You want one bolt in that you will see a huge difference, its called a crate engine. Otherwise as most know its a combination of parts that create a real runner. I have a bunch of bolt ons and none have given me any like "WOW it was slow but that changed everything" difference. Every little thing helps.

nick418

i add some minor mods, i feel a difference, not a ton, but a little bit

robsgta

Thanks OMCRIDER very realistic expectations.

When I first started investing money into my GTA's performance I asked an engine builder from nikkens racing in houston what should I expect from simple bolt ons being K&n ,airfoil,headers,no cat,chip,high out put ign & coil he said realistic expectations should be measured in tenths of a second in a quarter each unless its a super charger or n.o.s.

omcrider

Thats a good way to think about it, and a good measurement for performance gain. Another is your trap speed, sometimes you can do a mod that doesn't gain you any tenths in the 1/4 but you might find your trap speed just increased. This basically shows how you moved your peak power curves up the RPM range (happens alot when we start messing with the stock TPI). Your car is faster but not necesarily quicker. So next you get a torque converter to match the new higher RPM range and now your quicker and faster. So it always comes down to a combination of things.

Theres only two things I can say I ever got suckered into buying that was a waste. One was the Throttle Body bypass kit off ebay, it was only about $12 bucks after shipping, but once I got it and realized what it was, I threw out all those funky connectors and just ran a new hose directly. The second was the Tornado, maybe this thing has some validity on a carbed engine where this cookie cutter sits right above the intake (I wouldn't bet on it though) but in our cars the air just has to many other passages to travel for any effect to be left by the time it reaches the cylinders. SO all it was doing was bloacking air flow.

All my other bolt ons have offered some improvement.

UmmaGumma

I'm glad you find me amusing in that I never said anything about expecting an airfoil to make a neck snapping difference; or any other than what I read about better mileage and it pulling a little harder. Of the two, neither were true.

Hence my foundation for saying it was a COMPLETE WASTE OF TIME AND $$$. Sorry if that irritates you

You know what I find irritating? When the best all someone can come up with is a "...bolt in that you will see a huge difference, its called a crate engine."

Unlike yourself and a few others, most people that own these cars can't afford to just go buy a crate motor and "bolt it in" as you say. If they did, it wouldn't be as interesting and each car wouldn't be as unique. That wouldn't be any fun.

Besides, you probably wouldn't be using an airfoil with a crate motor, would you? Most of the aftermarket throttle bodies already have one built in.. eh?

D Stroy H8

Says something about getting an airfoil for a TB that doesn't have one already, doesn't it?

MrDude_1

yea.. it says, give the customer what he wants.


omcrider:
im not trying to be irritating just voicing my opinion.

i think we can both agree that when you're slow, its easier to get quicker, and then the faster you get, the harder it is to get the same gain... right?


well right now, he has a mostly stock motor. there is alot more gains to be had elsewhere right now. ones you can both feel and measure. thats all im saying.

robsgta

The thing that some of us are trying to say is regardless of how much you spend its a long process . (unless you spend a couple grand)
There are realisticly very few mods that are a waste of money due to the fact that GM really did every thing possible to make our cars run like slugs.
Isnt it strange how the 3rd gen 350 puts out 225 horse back then.(and today with no mods)
And how the 350 LS1 pumps out 325 horse running 12.89 @109 stock!!
Purchasing a single simple bolt on possibly once a month is a good start.
If money is really tight then maybe you shouldnt be racing your only car Hence the more you race your car the more likey you are to break something.

omcrider

Hey UmmaGumma and MrDude hope I didn't hurt anyones feelings, no harm intended. Its just some people who may be new to carcrafting come here to look for help or ideas and I hate to see them discouraged with bias inaccurate strong statements. Not that your not entitled to your opinion thats what this boards all about, I just wanted to spell it out more clearly about what should or shouldn't be expected from bolt ons.

MrDude_1

on the contrary... im trying to strongly discurage newcomers from buying thoes parts.

when you want to go fast, theres alot of mistakes you can make along the way... and ALOT of places you can spend your money without being effective.

i know that if i knew what i know now back when i was 15, i would have had a 10second car in highschool.. i worked full time in school, so money wasnt a problem (and i always made time for my car), but i spent a good deal of it on stuff that didnt make me go as fast as i wanted to.

anytime i can help someone go faster safely , spending less, then im all for it. and if i see it as a ineffective mod that, while it may help your goals, it isnt the best part or thing to do at this time, i'll voice my opinion on that. you dont have to listen to me, but i'll still say it.

and dont worry about hurting my feelings, im doubtful you can online.

UmmaGumma

Cool... No feelings hurt here.. don't worry.

I still think on the same lines as MrDude though.. In what I've seen, those that market the airfoils are targeting newbies with these cars with hopes of being able to get a dramatic response from an airfoil. Only to be very disappointed when they they don't get what they're expecting.

On a bone stock motor, I agree, any extra CFM coming into the engine can help. It just isn't enough to make any difference with an airfoil in mind..

TA

iTrader: (1)

Some of the airfoils are better than others. From my experience, I recommend the Holley unit. They know airflow, and it was designed on a flowbench, not on somebodys' garage floor. I have personally stood there and seen a dyno produce 7 HP with this unit.

Cost? HP always costs. Will you get 7HP? I dunno. Every combo is going to be different. I have seen other air foils on other cars gain less than 2 hp. If you stack up 4 little tricks that all gain 5 hp, you now have an extra 20 HP, and will definately be a tad quicker. How much you spend on those mods will determine if they are worth it.

Troy
So Cal