TA-Wizard

My buddy and I just got back from dynoing his 396 SBC T/A we finished over the weekend.

His best pull so far is 462 torque/398HP at the wheels on a stock 4-bolt 350 block. My 427 GTA has pulled 490 torque/422HP at the wheels with Accell DFI-7 and a tall deck block. His car will haul azz!!!. He is getting 90% of my power for $2k less......He also has a 9-second Buick GN......damn those Buick guys!!!!...........

I ran him in my 88 427 GTA yesterday and did not put any significant distance on him?? His combo went together like magic....one of those rare and blessed motor builds. Of course his 12:1 compression vs my 10.5 and T56 vs my automatic probably help a little, but..........it makes you wonder.

Anyway, the thing that makes it interesting to me is that he wanted to run the stock junk ECM and MAF (Wells). I told him on Sunday afternoon good luck trying to get it to run, since I had dumped my problematic MAF setup for the Accel DFI-7 system. Well, I guess those Buick boys know a thing or two about tuning MAF because I was totally surprised to hear a loping cam pull into my driveway yesterday with him grinning ear to ear. The car was running good.

I guess there may be some capability in those old silver boxes afterall. Only real issue is the 24lb injectors he is running may be a bit on the small side. We are installing 30lb units tonight and will dyno again tomorrow.

OMINOUS_87

You neglected to give the details of the motors, for those of us who are interested.

mystikkal_69

iTrader: (2)

very nice indeed.........

Erik formula L98

So what setup does your buddy have? Heads? Cam? etc.

bigals87z28

Oh *** yea i wana make a 396... that is what might end up in my engine... a 396 with a efi set up would be sweet to learn about... please post info PLEASE!! Magnium TPI did a 396 too.. but didnt follow what they did for to long... I wana know what the cost for everything... sounds like an awesome block!

ski_dwn_it

TA-Wizard,

Guess there is another example of a stomper MAF car, running 24# injectors. Something must be up with that.

IM me sometime I would like to learn more about your buddies setup and share with you what I have been finding. It may save you both some time and money.

Talk to you soon.

And good job with the setup!

TA-Wizard

Ski,

Yea, this was one of those build-ups where everything went right. He is having some driveability issues as far as idle, IAC, and part throttle. Car runs strong as heck though at WOT.

Eagle 4340 crank, H-Beams, Wiseco, stock block
GOOD (not cheap) machine work
Stealth Ram, 58mm TB
24lb Injectors (going to 30)
AFR 195 Race Ported Heads
Crower Cam
Long tubes
No smog or cat

I attribute his strong 396 to the excellent machine work. He put almost $1K into the block. Bore&Hone w/plates, splayed caps-align bore, decked,etc......all the good stuff. It pays to do it right.

I took the easy way with my 427 and had Speed-O-Motive do the build. They do very good work as well.

In any case, he may be going the DFI-7 route as well if he can't get the car to idle correctly or have decent part throttle operation. He has already burned 2 dozen chips and spent over 30 hours tuning. He asked me to help. I said "Get a DFI-7 and call it a day".......

I was reading some older posts about the GMHTP Magnum TPI buildup. I understand that there are some people who want to tune the oem computers, but, like the editor from GMHTP said, when you tune a EFI car with something like a DFI-7 ECU, you will never go back to an oem unit again. He made no apologies for the fact that us 'older' guys can afford to do our cars as we please and not be restricted to the junk GM ECU's simply because it is cheaper to do so.

If a person chooses to spend the time and effort to get a good tune with the oem system, go for it... However, in two hours, I achieved a better state of tune on a more radical engine than he has been able to for the past week.

Like they say......time is money!! LOL

camarojoe

TA-wizard, I haven't been on the site much in the past few weeks (dialup problems), but you're right on about the machine work being crucial in a strong running engine. I'm glad to hear about another wicked running MAF car. Of course that T-56 helps a bunch too.

Right now my engine is out of the car and I'm waiting till I have enough $$$ to do it right. I'm also tossing around the idea of selling my car altogether in favor of purchasing a 01 Ram Air w/ a stick. This idea came up when I recieved a $5k check in the mail. I'd hate to sell the car when it's so close to being right. But then I have the issue of my Coan trans, which is on it's way out w/ only 20k miles.

TA-Wizard

If it were me, I would really think about it before buying that 2001. I bought a 2002 ram-air WS-6 last fall.

Overall its an OK car and looks great, but, its missing something. I am not sure how to describe it, but, it just does not excite me like my 88 GTA does. When I am in the GTA, I get comments everywhere I go. No one pays a second glance to my 02. The GTA is fast all the time, low rpm or high, it just goes (even when it was stock). The 02 has to be wound up to move....it just gets tiring. Its also a rather poorly built and finished car. Cheap plastic that does not fit well.......typical GM I guess.

Its also the same for my Corvettes. I have a 89 Coupe, 96 Grand-Sport Coupe and a 02 Coupe, all 6-speeds. The 89 is a blast to drive because of the LTR setup....it will snap your neck back just driving normally. The 96GS is what it is and draws a crowd at a gas station. The 02....yawn....just another Vette. You really have to rev LS1 motors to make power, and its basically a psrts bin car anyway. I am currently advertising the 02 for sale.

Just my 2c worth.............

bigals87z28

HAHAHA! You must be missing several cyls because the LS1 engine is ***. Nothing GM has made can put out that kinda power in such a small package. the LS1 doesnt have the super torque ***** that tpi delivers, but i assure you... the LS1 hauls. Try racing a car from a 50mph roll... then watch as he slowly fades into the distance... I have surfed plenty of LS1 sites and have read up a great deal on this engine. Heads, cam, exhaust, programing... and this thing is seeing low 11's, 10's in some cases. I personaly would love to get a stripped out Z28 if the insurance wasnt so high, and i wasnt in school. I see a lot of 99-00's that i would love to get my hands on!! little 6spd... 3.42's... just blowing past everyone... oh well..

camarojoe

Thanks for the opinions guys. I've driven a MN6 ls-1. And all I've got to say is :hail: especially from a roll on the highway. If I can get about 8g's for my car which may happen from a kid a t work, I'll have about $12k to put into the new car. And half will be a down payment and half will be an SLP/MTI heads/cam/headers package. This is all if my loan goes through, which I will find out later today.

Matt87GTA

Now that's a nice compliment of rides! One suggestion though:

Get yourself a Z06 and call it a day. My bro-in-law has one and I have witnessed him "lug" it out of corners in the "wrong" gear (road racing - is there any other kind?? lol) from time to time and it still puts many a fast car to shame.

Also, what are the specs on your 427 in your GTA? I've got a pretty stout 383 in the works and I'm not skimping on the machine work either... My stuff is over at TPIS right now getting all of the good stuff done with billet splayed caps and whatnot.... I agree completely on the machine work. It just doesn't pay in the long run to cut corners on your lower end.

ski_dwn_it

Guys,

While I agree 100% that machine work is very important. I would like to say that its my opinion that you should build the shortblock in a way as to NOT spend a ton of money. I wholeheartly agree with the use of quality forged parts, but a stock cast crank and caps can take a crapload of abuse. There is no need to get fancy cranks, connection rods and pistons. Take the money you surely would have spend on the lower 1/2 and put it into the topend. Heads, intake etc. That is where the power is made.

I see all kinds of people put a crapload of money into the before mentioned parts, then when money gets tight put a ****ty set of heads and a run of the mill intake on. That is just plain stupid.

I am not speaking to anyone specific, just pointing out what some fail to realize.

OMINOUS_87

Sqaure decking and torque plate honing should never be skipped when a block is machined. The rest is pretty much optional and application specific.

My .02

Fevre

Could not agree with you more and found this article to back it up:
http://www.chevyhiperformance.com/te.../148_0303_n20/

Amazing what a stock GM bottom can take. I am pushing 375+hp and 400+ torq out of a stock bottom end GM LM1 eng straight from Mexico. Make your power down low and not have to worry about high rpm low end failure. I plan on making all my future engs rev below 6000.

bigals87z28

LS6's are made in mexico... they hold up a pretty decent powerband.

Captain C

The LS-1 cars have a lot of cam in them and so they really could use some 3.73 gears and a 3500 rpm torque converter. The converter alone could seriously change your mind. I've heard it's worth a half second in the quater by itself. I know if I ever change converters in my Camaro again it's getting a 3500 instead of a 2500 (ZZ4 cam).....

bigals87z28

ZZ4 cam and you didnt like a 2500 stall? Im gunna go with a 2600 or 2800 when i do mine.
Yea, i have seen a LS1 firehawk put in a 3500 stall in his stock car and went from a 13.2 to a 12.6. pretty dam good if you ask me!!! he might of been spraying too... but im not sure. i dont think he had his nitrous hooked up yet.

TRAXION

Amen to what ski said about stock crank/rods. My stock shortblock is holding up to 364hp at the rear wheels. That makes it about 450hp at the crank.

... and with the new camswap I am looking for more. Upwards of 475hp on the stock bottom end (380+ rwhp) through an automatic with a 3600 stall (can you say driveline loss?).

And some people think I can't build a car? Hmmmmm.

Tim

Captain C

I should probably go with a 3000 instead of a 3500..... What I really need to do is figure out what is leaning my car out so bad. I'm not making any power!!!! Then I need to put the car on a dyno and burn a chip. I would really like to convert to Speed Density with an Accell DFI VII but I'm not sure about getting it through smog. I may have to use a factory computer and then go from there...... Money, money, money, it's only money...... Something I don't have!!!!!!!!!!

88TPI406GTA

I agree with Ski and Traxion...

My 406 (when it runs soon) has a rebuilt stock-type bottom end with about 1500 miles on it...I rebuilt it about 5 years ago originally as a stock 400 longblock with a carb...let's hope it all holds together

Seriously though...I think that as long as you don't rev it too high with a stock type bottom end...you can see the stock components take a beating...my redline will be about 5700 rpm...maybe 5500...I shouldn't have to rev it with my combo and that will ensure the rods stay IN the block

Matt87GTA

BUT.....

If you are building an engine from the ground up and are going to be purchasing new parts for the lower end anyways, the extra money spent on those parts will pay dividends in power and longevity. And I'm not talkin blowing money just for a name either.... I have some very nice parts for my 383 - they could have nicer names on them, but I found some pretty phenomenal deals on the stuff I went with and they should support a lot of power. Enough to tide me over for quite a while. One would be hard pressed to say no to the package I got on the rotating assembly:

Eagle 4340 forged crank
Eagle 4340 forged H-beam 6" rods
Eagle billet splayed cap set
Ross forged flat top 2-relief pistons
Clevite H-series bearings

Total: $1275 shipped to my door.

I wouldn't think twice about building on a stock shortblock if all I wanted was 450hp though. Or even 475.... My 355 has a stock crank and rod set in it (not that it is making even 400hp, but you get the point). But with a ZZX, Miniram, and Track 1s going on a 383.... Lots of ponies will be on the way (most likely anyways).

There is also much to be said about what the engine is going to be put through and what exactly it is. Engines that are large enough to support big power obviously demand better parts or they will make rod babies when pushed to their limits. Applications where the engine is going to see some serious loading and lots of it for long periods of time will demand high quality lower end parts and machine work - if you want it to last. Like road racing for example.... The sustained RPMs and long runs at high loads will find the weak link in a hurry...

Budget obviously plays a big role here as well.... And lets be honest here - there are a lot of car people out there that get a big hard one over spending the least amount of money as possible to get to a certain level and LOVE to berate anyone that spent more and got the same or similar results. Now, obviously all-out wasting money is never beneficial, but everyone has their own set of limitations - be it time, money, skill, etc.

I guess I agree with you guys, but lets not call a Pinto a Ferrari.....