ski_dwn_it

I wasn't typing all that again...so here ya go!

http://forums.corvetteforum.com/zerothread?id=566897

BuckeyeROC

Congrats!!! Man, that is crazy!

That big of a cam w/ the SR and "Smallish" AFR 190's ("Small" for a 406) doesn't seem like it would work well together, but obviously it does.

I wonder if you would reduce your ET's at all w/ an LT1/MR on top of it? It would be an interesting comparo b/c I've never seen a SR taken as far as yours.

BTW, who did the SR porting?

ski_dwn_it

Thanks all..

I did the porting of the SR myself.....you can see all the pictures in my website in my sig.

As for the miniram or other intakes....there would be more to that change than just intakes. I would have to revise to lower rear gears, and probably break the Dana 44 with the weaker rear, and I think I would loose more torque collectively, than I would gain in HP.

Since I still drive the car quite a bit on the road, I like all that torque

camarojoe

OMG!!!! That's freak'n ridiculous!!! Take that all you mini-ram guys. The superram rules! :rockon: :rockon: Almost 600hp from a superram, you kidd'n me only lingenfelter is supposed to be able to come up with that kind of power. Congrats. Jesse, we're not worthy.:hail:

I also agree with you about torque and how fun it is on the street. I think I might also justify stepping up to your cam when I redo my 383.

anesthes

iTrader: (12)

Max power was 438hp.. Am I missing something??

-- Joe

ski_dwn_it

Obviouisly if your asking that. That is rear wheel HP not flywheel....in other words that is what you have available where the proverbial rubber meets the road.

anesthes

iTrader: (12)

Ahh.. I thought that was correct HP, my bad.

camarojoe

I'm not trying to put down guys running mini-rams or anything, I'm just excited to see a superrammed car putting down those kind of numbers. I guess I'm just tired of always seeing people put the down the superram, and preach about how much better the other efi intakes are. Then again they're are probably more faster mini-ram cars than superram cars on this site. Hopefully that'll change though when people see this post.

ski_dwn_it

Here is the way I look at it.

There probably aren't many NA minirams putting out that kind of HP, and there definately aren't any putting out 400+ tq through the whole RPM range.

Why beat your car to death at 6500 RPM when I don't have to go past 5150

And you have enough tq to pull stumps from front yards for the neighbors

AKA: Gruntasouras

rezinn

That is a lot of power, but I didn't read anywhere that you said no vacuum was pulled? I'm assuming that there wasn't.

Even so, I think the best way to prove that the MAF is not a restriction(at this point) is to test the engine with equal tuning with a different system. People that say it is a restriction are mostly referring to a stock MAF, unported and screens in tact. We've seen people calculate exactly how much air the sensor can flow(stock), and then calculate how much power that could support. I believe it was well below how much power you're making. A lot of people are wary of cutting up an expensive sensor like that, because of the possible consequences. And so it is cheaper to convert to speed density and forget the MAF.

I don't think people will be changing to a superram anytime soon because it's so expensive and because of the installation. I removed mine and sold the top for $600 a few years ago because I needed money, and bough aftermarket runners for $160 on discount. The LT1 intake and stealth ram can be had for much cheaper now. Only us smog legal guys have to worry about super rams

OMINOUS_87

The SR is a love hate telationship. I love the way it looks, it just plain dominates the top of an engine! I hate having to put it together and work with dozens of bolts but it is a labor of love, nothing to cry over. I hate the fact that there are so many ports that need to be hogged out and matched up but I am sure that after I have spent mad hours on my base and runners it flow like a motha!

I dont exactly understand what all the sobbing is over the installation of the SR, sure it will take some time but if you do it right there is no need to go back and forth taking it on and off, that is PATHETIC reason not to run an SR.

The bottom line is that I dont think I would ever run a gerry rigged LT1 setup and HSRs dont fit firebirds or vettes and both of these setups trades way to much torque for my liking causing the use of higher stall converter, steeper gears, and and much more rpm to turn good numbers.

The SR makes for the best average numbers under 6000rpm in most every situation, just plain cant argue against that, power is power!

nitrovette

iTrader: (1)

congrats jesse, nice numbers,might have to look into a sr.

anesthes

iTrader: (12)

Thats not really the issue, its the tuning of $32b, and $6e..

SD makes much more sense to me, from a tuning point of view.

I honestly doubt one system or the other will make more HP in the long run. In the end its really just injector pulse width, spark advance, and throttle position (blades). I just like tuning the $8D stuff a lot better.

If your properly tuned, your properly tuned.

With Maf you have to rescale all your calculations after you exceed 255gps. Kinda in the same manner you need to rescale the ve tables once you exceed 100kpa on SD..

Ski, whats your gps look like throughout the rpm range? My math has always told me you should max that out (at sea level) around 540 or so cfm. I'm curious if your maxing that out, and running of O2 for corrections.

-- Joe

Ed Maher

Yeah, but how many solid roller, perfectly balanced / blueprinted 400ci+ engines with minirams are you comparing to?

How about a mild 406 https://www.thirdgen.org/techbb2/sho...hlight=miniram

Imagine 480ft-lbs at 2700 from a short runner intake. Who says you need a super ram to make torque?

Not bad for a 440 lift hydraulic cam compared to a 600+ solid in yours. And off the shelf heads. And shorty headers with a single 3" exhaust. A lot of handicaps there comared to yours, but i'd say similar enough to quench the debate on the superiority of SR torque.


One other thing. I have no idea why you shift that thing so low when it looks like power is still going up or basically flat still at 5400. Seriously, have you experimented with shift points on it, or do you keep the Rs down for the sake of longevity? 240' @ 0.050 is not an RV cam, shame you didn't run the dyno out to 6k+ to verify.

MinionII

Mustang Dynos typically read 15% lower than Dynojet Dynos.

They are a different design. A 'loading' dyno I think Whereas the Dynojet is an 'inertia' dyno


I do know they read lower though.

gmgod

I've always heard they read higher.

ski_dwn_it

I am not fond of dyno machines....I think bad things happen on them. Maybe its my imagination, or just the thought of running a car 6000+ RPM sitting still get to me. Call me crazy.

ED,

Ed Maher

I was just pointing out how completely uninformed and fallacious that statement was. I showed you a car making the same kind of numbers with a miniram. No need for further explanation. I'm glad you like your intake, but don't knock the miniram just because you don't follow what people are actually doing with them. That's all.

BTW, if you have a 3200 converter then ALL your low end numbers are inflated. Unless you don't believe in torque multiplication. I was assuming you dynoed with the converter locked to account for this.

ski_dwn_it

Hey ED,

I think if you read my post, I said MANY Miniram cars

That is one car. I am not ripping of miniram cars, it my experience with the vette guys that they aren't noted for the tq that the sr engines get. Period!

I am convinced that if you stuck a funnel on one of these 400+ engines it would make good torque numbers.

Put a SR on a 350 and a miniram on a 350 and you will soon see what I am taking about. Why do you think you need steep gears with a miniram and 3.07s with a SR? Most Minirams make all their power in the upper RPMs.

Again I could care less what intake you choose. If you want a minram, stealthram, then buy it.

Oh yeah one other question, how much torque did that engine loose over the RPM range I will take my ~100 ft/lb loss through the entire RPM range.

ski_dwn_it

I went and looked at that dyno graph.....

If you believe that setup to be comparible to mine that is almost laughable. 250 HP out of a 400+ engine :LMFAO:

I wiil tell you what he can have the 480 ft/lb of torque at 2700 RPM, he needs it LOL

Ed Maher

The part i highlighted says 'any', guess it was a typo, sorry. It was an easy to believe typo given your insistence that minirams don't make torque.

Did you look at the dyno graph? Looks a lot like yours. Over 400 still at 5500.

If you want to talk 350s, short runner intakes usually make more low end torque then a tuned runner intake. Sure it'll be down 20 ft-lbs in the mid range where the resonance hits, but stock for stock LT1s make peak torque lower than L98s. And the knowledgage guys i see running MRs on 350s that can accurately convey results see similar trends. Like Glenn91L98GTA. He picked up low end torque when he went to a miniram vs. TPI.

The reason most miniram cars runs big gears, etc is the whole combo is designed around that idea with big heads and a big cam. There aren't many MRs on stock engines, but Glenn has one, and LT1s are similar enough for me for comparison too. Neither wants for low end.

Hell, even my weak *** 305 only lost a tenth on my 60' with otherwise identical mph when i siamesed my base, killing the T of the TPI. And thats in a heavy heavy car with 3.23s. And that was un-tuned too. I still have the same grunt off the line and get decent holeshots (for what the car is mind you), but i'll admit that i don't have the same pull from 32-3800, where 60' is made. Other than that, car is as driveable as ever. I use pretty aggressive TCC parameters because i like the direct coupling for highway cruise, and there's no excessive lugging going on or anything like that from a loss of torque.


I don;'t know what else to say. If you think you need a SR to make torque, that's fine, but i don't buy it, and i've shown you why. I've put the data out there so everyone else can read and decide. Both intakes can go fast, that much is clear. Now can't we all just get along? Seriously, SR vs. MR pissing matches are stupid, some see the SR as a godsend of torque, others get by fine without 'em. To each his own.

Ed Maher

ski, you posted that while i was typing mine, but cmon now. You have:

240+ solid roller with 0.600"+ vs. mild hydraulic flat tappet.
Ported heads vs. out of the box.
long tubes vs. shorties
dual 3" exhaust vs. single.

Gee, i wonder if that explains why you make more power.

BTW, i guess you didn't read the thread, because he explains that the HP numbers coming off that particular dyno don't come out right. Nevermind it makes the same torque as you through the powerband. Twisting facts to suit your needs, i understand.

From the middle where he explains it:

ski_dwn_it

Ed look I was making a general statement that Most minirams don't make that much power. I have NO GRIPES with the miniram.

1. My heads are out of the box AFR heads. They were never overoworked in any fashion. 190 runner. If you look at the webiste I provide good pictures of them going on the shortblock, you can still see the factory marks.

2. My solid ROller is not that big. It looks like it is, but really its only one step up from the available 219/219 hyd cam. When comparing hyd to mech, if the dur etc are all equal the solid is actually 1 step smaller typically. You follow what I am saying?

if you had two equal spec cams one a hyd and the other a mech, the hyd is actually a bigger cam. So really mine is like a 232 hyd cam. Is that that big? Not really. Remember we have .018 lash on our cams so the valves don't start moving like the hyd cams do right off the base circle. The really only advantage is the solid lifter motors use lighter components than hyd (which I am not even taking advantage of) and the ramp rates can be quicker since you don't have to worry about bleeding down the lifters.

So really that cam I have, although everyone thinks its a monster isn't all that big.

And about the HP numbers not being right off that dyno......if that is the case I what would make you think any of the numbers were even close to being accurate. I hope you buddy got his money back from the dyno shop.

Ed Maher

I understand the concept of lash, but it's still a lot bigger than a crane 266 hydraulic.

Sorry about the heads, didn't check your website, just though i had seen you say somewhere that you portedthem with your SR.

8Mike9

Two things that seem to have gotten lost in this thread....funny how the longer a thread goeas here, the more it seems to deviate from the original intent

1. The point of the thread was to show how much power a MAF setup can make.

2. (Although not really mentioned) The SR 50 state legal, so for those of us in the ****-enforced-smog-inspection areas, the MR or HSR isn't even a consideration. Due to this reason and since this thread seems to be going towards a SR vs MR debate (at least by one person) I'd say the SR just shined brightly

ski_dwn_it

Yeah thanks Mike you are exactly right. The intent of this post was to bring to the board a long time member with some real world results and making some decent power with the MAF system.

Regardless what some people think, the MAF system has a stigmatism that its unable to make power. I see too too many people with a pretty much stock 350 saying that they need to switch to SD to gain power. POwer and that is the only *true* reason why they want to switch.

If you want to switch for other reason, have at it. I simply want to save people the hassel of the swap and the tuning that is going to be mandatory with the swap.

99% of us are here to go faster and learn ways to. This just opens the avenue for MAF guys to realize that power can be made and will be made if you allow it to.

I for one take people's proven results much more seriously than people claiming things or speculating limits/restrictions. I guess I come from the old sang: Show me the money!

For the people that already realize that MAF can make power great! But there is a huge majority that don't think it can. The reason the topic keeps coming up is weekly there are posts stating to that effect.

And tuning is no more of a problem in my experience than SD. I have tuned both types of cars and my OPINION is that I would choose MAF everytime, especially for a person starting out and making mods to a car.

One is NOT better than the other they both shine in their own way.

305sbc

iTrader: (3)

Well you're obviously a MAF and SR lover because that's what you have, there's no doubt about that,
but I think we (other post readers) would love to see as much test data as possible.
I noticed from the locked thread about MAF vs SD that you never posted results from or tried the vacuum test that I requested.

So if you would please perform this test and post up for us how much vacuum you get at 5100 RPM or however high you spin the engine... and you will get some vacuum.
You told me in that last thread that I was presumptuous, but I have no idea why.... my post was simply a request to you for information. I am very curious as to just how much pressure drop you're getting in the plenum by using a stock MAF with your SR. The SR has a VERY large plenum area for the runners to draw from so your pressure drop shouldn't be all that bad,
I'm just curious how much the 406 cubes will generate.

If you would please post the vacuum number, then many of us will continue to be enlightened by real test data and the discussion that is likely to follow.
Thank you,

camarojoe

I think it's more a matter of these parts are good for 530+fwhp and 600+rwtq, not because it's what he has.

The reason you seemed presumptuous may be the fact that you practically demanded a vacuum test to be given as if it were some all-telling test that will decide if the 406 is pushing the limit for hp. I think if this were critical data it would have been given way before now even in previous posts.

Ski's dyno results of his car should have essentially killed three birds with one stone: 1. Flow #'s don't always mean hp, Ski's running stock 190's which use port velocity above all other means to make torque; this car should be proof that AFR are above the rest for a street head, which so many people argue against. 2. MAF myths, for obvious reasons. 3. Superrams are right up there with the best efi manifolds, when used correctly and maybe with a little port work.

Guest

You know, while all you guys are doubting, conjuring up excuses, comparisons, myths, and generally just running your mouths about the car and the results, he is still running low 11's. Any of you guys arguing about this running low 11's? Didnt think so...

anesthes

iTrader: (12)

Our old 383, brodix headed, carbed, drag camaro gutted, caged, and 9inched ran 10s all day long.

My Honda runs 9.6 in the 1/4 at a total race weight of a little over 600lbs.. Apples and oranges? So is a race weight of 3350 vs 3700lbs.. And thats why ski_ provided us with dyno #'s. Because e/t's dont mean JACK.

Again, I dont think MAF or SD go any faster than each other.. You get the same thing in the end. injector pulse, timing advance, etc.. I happen to like tuning VE tables, and ski_ likes tuning maf ..

-- Joe

Vader

Sounds like something I mentioned once or twice before in similar threads. Results are always more concrete than conjecture. MAFs are all too often condemned as inadequate. Guttin the MAF on a larger engine like that is about the only time it's necessary, and obviously pays off.

BTW - That "Corvette Forums" link sends me off to a never-Never Land front page that never-never finishes loading. Is Michael Jackson running that site?

ski_dwn_it

Oh sorry....wish someone would have let me know the link was broke.

Here is exactly what is in that Vette link.....and YES the vacuum test was done on the dyno....it pulled 0 vac at WOT! I posted that on that link. I also have videos of the entire dyno and testing that will be posted as soon as my brother gets around to downloading them to a computer.

Here is the text of that page vader:

Well guys it was a long and torturous trip down there. The directions to the place were a little hosed up, but we finally got there after some road rage.
We got there and Dennis was all smiles as we pulled in, suspecting that us country boys got lost in the city. Jim Cummings, AKA-85vette was also there to see how the car ran. Armed with his video camera and with ours you should expect to see some videos later this afternoon or tonight. I did not want to keep you all waiting as I know some of you are anxiously awaiting.

We loaded the car onto the Mustang Dyno after waking up the entire neighborhood from with the open headers. WOW was it loud. The building was a short 1 strory garage, and the hood would not open all the way, hence the reason for the little race tires in my fender wells to keep air flowing. I was a little disapointed that the shop did not have any real decent provisions for hooking the WB02 into my header collector. After several attempts with it just blowing out, and the time getting late I said heck with it. I knew the tune was flatline as far as AFR so all I needed to do is make global changes, then if an area improved and another declined, make the necessary RPM specific changes while trying something else in a different area. Unfortunate, but like I said I was confident in the tune being real close, and Dennis made up for it in hospitality. Real nice guy!

So once we were all strapped on, most everyone fitted with ear plugs except me...... (what did you say? ) we did the calibration stuff. And were ready to hammer on it. I double checked all my guages and gave him the

We ran several runs, 4 to be exact. But before I give you the results I would like to take a moment and explain the experiment we were doing in regards to the MAF meter that some of you may have missed yesterday before I left.

Here is the scoop. The MAF meter has had stigmatizm that you could not make over 450 crank HP on a motor without some power adder. ie SC/Turbo/Nitrous. So we proposed to get a vacumm gage and measure the plenum during WOT runs. If there is a restriction from the plenum to the front of the engine then you would see a vacuum being pulled. Others have used this method to find there TB were inadequte etc. We hoped to find out if we had a restriction on this bigger cube engine and then if there was a vac, then more testing would need to be performed to identify the exact cause, but lets take it one step at a time. I have been preaching that the MAF is not a restriction, so I put my neck on the chopping block, and said I would do the test. We videod the vac gage while I went from part throttle ~65-70MPH on the dyno to WOT. The gage read vac as expected at part throttle, but as soon as I nailed the throttle, the guage when to 0 and held for the entire run! Never came up to a reading. I am taking my dads word for it, since he was filming the gage while we did the tests. I will show the videos like I said later tonight or this afternoon.

So I guess we can conclude that there is not a restriction in my air intact track. But now how much power is this thing making? If its only putting out 320 HP then sure the MAF could handle it.....lets take a look.

We ran some test runs, to see where I should take the power to. I guess I sorta pussed out here and cut the RPM short, as it looked like the graphs were starting to flatten off a little, dennis thought there was more in it, but being open exhaust and in a such a small building, it sounded like your killing your engine, so I kept the Rs down around 5400.....I know, I know.

Well there are some other graphs, but here are 2 that I have to use a digi cam, my scanner is not hooked up at home, and we only got back at ~2am...so these will have to suffice.

This is the first graph, the tune I came with to the shop:



Can you say HOLY CHIT? Dennis the dyno operator just about crapped his pants, I think he was the most excited out of all us. With that run I shattered every record they had there at the speed shop for dyno runned cars. He couldn't get over how much torque that thing was making and it only went down about 65-70 ft/lbs through the entire RPM range! Guess that is why I can totally miss 2nd gear and still only be off 2 tenths in my 1/4 ET and down 4 MPH I keep saying the thing feels like a runaway freight train going down the side of a mountain even as I go through the end traps. I swear it pulls as hard at the end as it does at the beginning.

OK, so I quickly decided after that I would add more fuel and see what happens. I bumped the entire range up about 2.5% from about 2500 Rpm +. The graphs for torque jumped some 26 ft/lbs and I gianed about 3.4 HP so it was liking the added fuel.

Here is that graph.



Not too shabby I would say! Lets add some more fuel...I wanted to add as much as I could and still make power, since I was about 12.8 when I started so I wanted to keep the valves etc cool as possible with the unburned fuel. So I was pleased to see that I could add fuel and the gains were still coming. So much for the 24# injectors being static at 4200 RPM as some said they were

I went again on the dyno and this time added some 2% more. This time the HP stayed right at 437.0@5150 RPM, and torque dropped down to 501.1 @3400. So I decided I had pretty much passed the sweet spot. And I said one more. I backed it back down 1 % and still it was less than the 437/536 number so moved it back to there and left the fuel alone. I was very pleased with the cars results and we all headed outside to clear our heads. My ears were ringing so bad, hell they still feel plugged Dennis the dyno guy said that is the closest anyone has ever hit a tune, first time to a dyno after a buildup and shook my hand saying you smashed every record we have had here for a while (held by a modded VIPER .......Go vettes!. He said Mike would change the Website to reflect the new results asap. Kinda cool I suppose. He said, but you have to run 1 more if you want them all. The 1/4 mile. I said ahhhh, and he seemed a little disappoints alone with some others, so I said alllllright fire it up! I climbed back in it and once I was in it I asked, YOU SURE this thing isn't going to some off that damn machine. Dennis starting thinking and seemed a little concerned all of a sudden that maybe it wasn't a good idea. But I said **** on it lets do it. He smiled and said, whats the worst that could happen, you come off at 120+ MPH

So I hammered through the gears at WOT! Kindof a weird feeling, when you can't feel the forces and your not going anywhere. I went till he waved his hand to stop and when the rollers stopped and the car was off, he said well you got it. The computer said a measly 11.80@125, good enough for the record, but far from reality. It was fun anyways. I guess there was one other test you could do...0-60MPH, but it was getting late and I wanted to get back on the road.

So in the end, I guess there are a few things to be said that are pretty undeniable now with the track times and dyno results.

1. MAF can make a bunch of power effectively without the assistance of any power adders. Where that ceiling is at, I guess someone with a bigger motor than me is going to have to figure that out. But upto this amound of power, there is no way that MAF is holding anyone back. I am going to say it. Anyone claiming it is, is an idiot and is just ignoring facts.

2. 24# injectors are plently big enough to support this kind of power effectively, as seen when I made the increase in AFR %. You don't pick up HP and tq when your out of fuel. And HP doesn't go from 400 up to 437, 4200RPM+ when your static on injector and RPM is increasing and cycle time for the injectors are getting shorter and shorter. Are they close to being maxed out, probably, but they are probably a more efficient spray stream etc where they are at now, than 36# injectors at 60% duty cycle.

3. I am a happy camper

OMINOUS_87

Ski

Are those breathers you are running or some type of a modded PCV setup?

I am dropping in the P&P Superram next Wed and am not willing to accept any oil from the PCV system in my SR as I think I would break down cry after spending mad hours getting everything to a mirror shine inside.

Guest

I thought the whole idea of drag racing was to have the lowest ET?

Whatever.

Vader

Max,

I guess that sucking the exhuast from the four pipes on all those "inferior" MAF cars has had some effects. Some fresh air will solve that in no time.

You might be wrong about the ET idea, however. I thought that the car that could haul the greatest mass of vinyl decals, aero wings, fart cans, and neon light tubes for 1300' was the "baddest". At least that's what all the kids are saying. I'm planning a three-cylinder Isuzu drag car with 1,200 ft² of glass right now, just so I can glue all manner of unintelligible symbols all over it...


- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

Ski,

Thank you very much for cutting/pasting the text of your experiments. Congratulations on your tuning! You've obviously done your homework.

And you're preaching to the choir if you're trying to convert me. I've had a history of being the "Devil's Advocate" for MAFs, despite the naysayers. Simple VE and flow math has always proven otherwise. As for the potential restriction, I have a couple of rather old Tech Articles that agree with your findings. The TB will become a restriction long before a MAF. The RamJet 502 makes 510 HP through a 48mm TB, and I doubt that the limit is even there.

And you've also proven that the factory wasn't that far off on the injector selection, just in the tables. I've been involved in "discussions" before about the duty cycle of the injectors at a given RPM. Since I was basically told I was mistaken in the past, you and I obviously have "variably-static" analog injectors unlike anyone else's.

Nice work.

anesthes

iTrader: (12)

In IHRA e/t wins, in NHRA mph wins. ANd then there are various brackets within that have their own rules.

-- Joe

305sbc

iTrader: (3)

SKI,
Word is that the 72mm TPI MAF only flows 520 CFM at the standard 1.5" hg pressure drop. I'd say that's why everyone including the 305 guys ports the MAF.
After porting it's said that the MAF will flow close to 660 CFM at that same 1.5"hg pressure drop.
If your 406 is pulling zero vacuum, then that physically has to mean that it flows far less 660 CFM of air.
Making 437 RWHP through a 72mm MAF @ zero pressure drop and flowing such a small amount of air,
well that's just incredible.

A completely stock 346 CID LS1 with a 75mm MAF will pull 1"hg vacuum at WOT @5800 RPM.
1"hg is only 0.46 PSI loss from atmospheric which is only a 3% loss in power.
Any vacuum reading at WOT indicates a restriction and a power loss. At the standard 1.5"hg pressure drop used for testing CFM on throttle-bodies and carburetors, the engine will only be losing around 5% power.
Getting rid of, or reducing this pressure drop in the intake plenum is the reason people have been replacing their 2-barrel carbs with 4-barrel carbs throughout the years.

No doubt there will be a few people who just won't believe that you make the power you do naturally aspirated with a 406 CID engine pulling zero vacuum through a 72mm MAF.

Try to realize that it's not that people don't believe you can make X-amount of power through a MAF, a 2-barrel carb, or any other small orafice, it's just that they'd prefer to avoid as many restrictions as possible in the quest for X-amount of power. No matter what facts anyone claims, there will always be people who want to do it another way.

So you may be fooling a lot of people for the sake of arguing for the MAF, or you may just be defying physics. Either way my hat's off to you for a job well done.
:hail:

ski_dwn_it

305sbc

I personally think there is a whole lot more to the entire air duct/MAF system, and how it interacts as a whole than people think. Looking at just one, the smallest, part of it is really not the best way to analse the system.

Just like carbs, they actually resommend that you stay a touch below the air requirement for them to maintain velocity and best performance.

A guy was in the pits with me at the last track is a small rail with a 406, nearly the same specs as mine running 8.0xx@150+ MPH. I spoke with him, as he was very interested in what I did with my setup. The topic of airflow came up, and he said his engine ran best with a 750 CFM carb. He had a bigger on on it and it ran slower.

He said that based on his race weight and mine that my engine on his car would put him in the 7 for sure, hence his reason he was interested in the setup. He couldn' believe my car was in full trim/AC and not altered other than motor and wheels and turning those times.

Again I will say that people talk too much about what things can't do, when they refuse to listen to the people that are doing things. I only posted this information in an attemp to PROVE that you don't need to worry about your MAF being a *restriction* until you go somewhere beyond the 440 RWHP range.

Two thing I am considering.

1. Larger injectors, as I analysed the data further seems like it may be in order, for even more power/tq. Today I plan on taking the car out and doing the increased AFR at WOT tests, along with increasing the FP to see if that will yield a richer reading on the WB02.

2. I *might* consider running a SD system in parallel with the MAF system to put to bed once and for all the speculation that the system as a whole is not a restriction. I am confident that should finalize this saga.

If there is anyone here who can lend me some help or a link to show me how to do this in parallel, I will get to seeing what I can do. I do not want to just switch to the other system, and do away with the MAF. I think this would be a VERY interesting test that many would like to see done.

Thanks.

TRAXION

If you want the ability to swap from 165 to 730 and then back to 165 very easily then you'll need to build an adapter. Mike Davis did this on his 11sec 355. One thing not mentioned here is that you can actually use the 165 knock sesnor as long as you put a specific resistor in-line. The details of this should be on the boards here as it was discussed several times.

http://www.eecis.udel.edu/~davis/z28/ecm_swap_730/

Tim

11SEC91Z

iTrader: (4)

Good Gawsh this is a long post..lol...All ill say is I love my Miniram-383 combo..:hail: But nice numbers Ski

camarojoe

OMG to you as well 11SEC, I'd love my car almost more than everything if it ran the times yours does. :hail:

Damon

Regarding the dyno printout posted above- that was a motor I built for my brother's 87 GTA, run in his car. It was built on a budget of $900 for the bottom end, heads purchased used, Miniram being the only "trick" piece on it. Interesting side note- it was run using a PORTED MAF (87 TPI FI ECM and wiring harness), jsut like ski-down-it is using. In other words- nothing to write home about.

Some details if anyone cares:

The Torque curve was roughly believable but the HP curve was way out to lunch. Even the dyno operator said it wasn't even close, although he said it was still about 50HP higher than what a stock LS-1 layed down earlier. Big f-ing deal- what does that mean, anyway? That's why I hand-wrote the approximate RPM numbers over the MPH numbers the Mustang dyno gives. Using the old Torque -> HP calculation I come up with a little over 400 HP to the rears. Respectable. Impressive, maybe- not mind-blowing. Frankly, I don't trust dyno results as far as I can throw them.

It was a 406 with the Miniram and a TEENY TINY flat tappet hydraulic cam (210* @ .050", .440 lift). Box-stock Trick Flow G2 heads. Months after that dyno run we found out we had 24lb injectors in the motor even though the chip was designed for 30lb units. Woops! A switch to the correct size injectors netted impressive seat-of-the-pants gains across the board but we never got it to the dyno again.

................

Ski-down-it: I think we share many opinions in common (not liking dynos, for one). Dragstrip is my dyno. I also found that a prorted MAF wasn't much of a restriction on our motor. Actually, we still had quite a bit of "headroom" left before we maxed out the 255g/s programming limit. I'm sure the MAF calibration was not perfect..... but it got the job done. What can I say? Congrats on the excellent performance with your SR.

BTW- Don't be too scared of the Miniram if you're ever shopping for a new intake- it makes torque WAY better than my brother and I ever thought it would. And the top end charge is STUNNING. You can play "steal torque from here and put it there" very easily with it. Even I could build a decent combo and I'm not even an "FI kinda guy."

tpi_roc

be sure to post the results

ski_dwn_it

Well TPI_Roc,

Unfortunately I will not be posting many more items here on the thirgen.org as a result of some of the other members constant ridicule. Which is funny with their lack of ability to produce any feasible results of their own.

Its not that I can't back up what I am talking about, obviously from the dyno results/time slips and videos you can clearly see that I am. But I just don't have the time in the day, nor the desire to argue with people that have nothing better to do in their pathetic lives but pick at others setups, which they themselves can't even get within 100 feet of.

What bothers me most are the people like yourselves that do have a true pashion for the sport, and care to listen to the people that are actually putting down the smack to the pavement, rather than just off the their lips. You guys are the ones that are really being hurt here.

As a results, there is a neat new site that everyone should take note of:

http://www.efi-tuning.org

You will find the future upgrades their without the hassles associated with this board. Hope to see you all their.

Over and out....

ski_dwn_it

camarojoe

Ski, thanks for the link but don't ditch out on us completely, man! I think it's worth your time to post here to at least keep those of us who do care updated on your testing/results as well as your vette buds. Hearing you vette guys on these boards is a breath of fresh air compared to the usual stuff posted here. I'm for one looking forward to hearing more about what you find out with your setup and I'll be waiting to hear when you finally break 10's!
Later.

Joe

ski_dwn_it

Well. Thanks for the encouragement, but my patient and will to do battle at each post, much like many others have worn too thin. I am about turning wrenches and tuning the car for real world applications. Each time you post here your expected to have a OEM test facility at your hands, and listen to a bunch of crap from someone that can't even post a time slip, as they would be afraid it would ruin their image.

I know a lot of you guys do appreciate the effort I put forth and the absolute only reason I even attempted to put up a stand.

But you will have to come to the http://www.efi-tuning.org

for the results of the tests. The board over there has some real nice features and is going to be filling up quick.

See you all there.

biff85ta

I know what you are saying as I do not visit this board as much as I used to. It seems everyone is dead set in their ways and just want to flame the person who wants to be different and it seems that when a mod gets involved things that would not be tolerated if it was someone else get by. We are supposed to keep this technical people why are we fighting over stupid bull**** all the time. I mean things like this thread are why we can`t have a lounge any more and why I and I am sure many others are afraid to voice their opinions or ask a question for fear of being ridiculed.

90Formula-X-F

ski_dwn_it, Congrats on figuring out the puzzle. I believe your for real. I have been talking about air limited being misconcieved for days. The torque curve of that other dyno never touches the horsepower line. That means the the volumetric efficiency is way off. You on the other hand have 450 ftlbs of torque at the crossing point and never drop below it. guess where it crosses... Max RPM's... I'm betting that's where you become air limited. Zing off 5 grand instantly while moving a ton of air to become really quick... Forget the grams per second. Speed of movement in large amounts at the correct time. Check this post out.. about 3 from the bottom.


https://www.thirdgen.org/techbb2/sho...hreadid=182489

85TPI400

ski_dwn_it,
If you do end up reading this, I think it is a shame for you to leave the boards here due to a few people that are set in their ways. This is a great site and I feel you are a real asset to it. Your prom, MAF research, posting of your dyno #s and detailed responses to other peoples questions, has been very much appreciated.
Take care,
Tony

Grumpy

Since this board is about all items TPI, then I guess talking about times here is an appropriate matter. As opposed to the PROM board is supposed to be about proms.

Let's see, backing up some, you can check the archives and see where I talk a fair bit about my 3rd Gen and running a cross-fire was doing mid 13s, and for a while was using no more then a voltmeter. Since Tunercat didn't exist and Programming 101 hadn't been done yet. While not particulary exciting time wise, for the time with as little as was know about EFI, at the time, I considered it a decent job. Thou others may want to bash it, it was done prior to Programming 101 and public domaining the inner workings of an ecm.

I then broke my back in a car accident and yes for a while was arm chairing it. As a true matter of fact I was wheel chairing it. By the time programming 101 rolled around I was ill enough that I was in a wheel chair and on O2 full time. Just walking to the car was out of the guestion. So yes, for a while I was wheel chairing it and still contributing to the EFI movement.

While ill I was also given the terminally ill and one year to live status. To avoid that I elected to get a lung transplant, and in the 3+ years since have had chemotherapy 2x, radiation therapy, and heart surgery. As a side effect of the meds I am now a diabetic, with related vision problems. And as a result of nerve damage from the transplant surgery was told I would never walk without a cane, much less drive. But here I an driving and working on getting stronger.
So I haven't been to the strip lately.

As far as from bed/chair, and while ill BobS was blowing lots of headgaskets with his car, in one visit here I showed him his problem, and while he blew 6 headgaskets the year before I helped him he's blown non since, and is running 10.6s. Steve H was here the same night and since has taken my advise and not blown a headgasket, but he's only running high 10s. DaveE in 2 mornings if tuning is within .3 of his best ever, and did his best 60' to date with my chip of a 1.64 with basically stock suspension. KenEs car while not caged is not going to see the track for any serious running, but we'll just say he has more motor then any of them. Anyone want to drop by Kilkare here in OH and I'll introduce you to the guys.

As for my own car, it's a slug. See I realise my limitiations, and budget. And I'm not going to cage it, but if anyone wants I'll arrange a statement from the past owner that the turbo and injectors cam off of a 10.6 car with about the same engine package as mine. But again his budget is higher then mine and I can't afford a $800 converter to get the same numbers.

As far as the misquotes and clever editing about what I've said, well, yes, you can misquote me and take things out of context. But I have never said MAP is a better system then MAF. When others have made errors in their statements I have felt compeled to correct them. In some of these writtings folks have taken what I've said and made assumptions about what was meant. Rather then ask a guestion or clarification, they then want to revert to name calling and such. Some have even taken the rudeness to the level of having their own threads locked.

As far as the comment about people being faster then me, I think that's great. That's why I've taken the time to support the EFI effort. Oh and in the Programming 101 stuff I supplied chips and holders to anyone that wanted to contribute, for the DIY-WB in the original format, I supplied the sensors for R+D. Both meant eating alot of Peanut Butter and Jelly Snadwhichs to promote the sport, er, EFI.

And while alot of my postings may seem short there are 3,000+ and I've answered the same guestions alot. I also tend to sometimes wait a day or two to see if someone wants to take the ball and run with it. And again you can take my general brievity as something, or just realise in posting so many answers I tend to just stay to the point. So if I have a bad day so what? the info is still good, well up until you creatively edit or misquote it. But also note that on even my worst of days I don't fall to name calling.

And BTW, since I am feeling somewhat better a friend and I have gone in on a trailer. In part I need to move the car around to different friends houses to get a hand on working on it, and it just might see the strip. You see steel rods in your back and one lung make swinging wrenchs challenging.

As far as the oem test equipment, I only made that comment to make a point about what lenghts the oems go to for testing. The pics of my test gear was in response to the comment about arm chairing it, and were just a matter of record about that I pratice what I suggest to others, ie being accurate. Which is what in fact lead to the latest thread closure, ie I made the comment CLOSE ENOUGH, and that was taken as a personal insult or something. And from that simple comment I was bashed and called names.

Now as far as list recomendations, this one is tops.
If anyone wants to fully discuss the merits of MAF compared to MAP then I sure would invite that. But it would take a number of threads to specifically go thru item by item to list the differences.
As far as the other list, comments like spitting in someones face and house cleaning are tolerated. Not to mention the name calling and bashing non list members.

I Hope that sheds some light on the other side of the story.