esams

First, thanks to all you guys who provided the details on the HSR install. There were no surprises and it was easier than I thought it would be. Even my non-mechanically inclined *** was able to do it in a weekend, thanks to a couple shuttles to the parts store and "Bob the badass" who did my fuel lines.

First impressions- it is obvious that there is no longer a high rpm horsepower drop off. It is also obvious that the low end torque is gone. Nothing we didn't already know.

Dyno graphs are now posted. This is with the stock chip. We tuned it with fuel pressure and timing.

GTA91

iTrader: (1)

Cool, let us know the ETs and dyno #'s when you get them!

OMINOUS_87

Stealthrams are overrated! Shoulda gone with a fully ported Superram! LOL Give me a call when you get that thing off the dyno tune.

By the way you forgot to tell everyone how you dropped those bolts down your stealthram! LOL

OMINOUS_87

oops, double post

MdFormula350

congrats on the install.

esams

Ominous, I meant to say thanks to you for hooking me up with the place and the tools, but now that you embarassed me I take it back!

esams

test

esams

My best dyno run with stock TPI was 242 rwhp and 353 rwtq, but I'm using this run because it has the most accurate curve for comparison against the Stealth Ram. Here you go dudes!

esams

Who thinks my car will run a quicker quarter mile time now? Is anyone surprised what happened here? I'm not, not one bit.

Look at the air/fuel graph below and you can see how jacked the stock chip is for the HSR. Keep in mind that around 13.0 to 1 is the optimum air/fuel ratio with iron heads.

esams

For further clarification, we'll do horsepower and torque separately. Here's torque:

esams

Horsepower:

esams

And this one's for Ed Maher! (Ed, I know you're not surprised)

esams

Oh and for anyone who doesn't understand what dyno tuning can do for you, here's what we gained from the first run to the last.

Free Bird

iTrader: (1)

Not to bust you bubble, but if I spent $500 on an intake manifold and only picked up 10hp and lost ~50lbs of tq, I'd be pissed. Yes the powerband is moved up into the higher rpms, but seriously, you picked up 10 hp?!?!?!

formularpm

Ten horsepower peak gain. Its not the peak hp that makes for a faster car, just look at the way the HSR band continues after the LTR drops off into oblivion. Its a much broader curve, and if hes planning on more mods after this, he can take advantage of the extra flow. Youre also overlooking the fact that this intake was put on a car with heads and a cam designed for TPI. Theres a lot of potential here...

age

free bird: I agree with formularpm. The HSR leaves a lot of room for future potential with not only heads/cam combination, but also for your tranny/final gear ratios.

Free Bird

iTrader: (1)

I don't see the big gain. Everything has potential, but there's no way I'd be happy w/ that. Why buy an intake designed from a dual carb setup to "help" a stock TPI motor? Helping a STOCK TPI would be runners, a port job, a cam. Not miss matching something that severe. One would've gotten better results w/ buying some slp runners and a dremmel.

I knew the numbers weren't going to be that great, but I expected a little more than 10 PEAK hp. He lost 50lbs of tq that would help him get out of the hole. Unless he couldn't drive before I don't see him get more than a tenth faster than what he did w/ the TPI.

Look at the rest of the curve. The ONLY gains I see are the ones after 4500 rpm. and yes they are good. But I seriously doubt that motor is going to push the car any faster down the track.

I do agree in the fact that the HSR leaves room for a lot more mods. But why get it dyno tuned for an intake? I know it was a little more expensive than a typical $75 session. Why wouldn't you buy a cam w/ that money and pull more than 10hp better w/o it even being tuned.

OMINOUS_87

Free Bird

ESAMS has full intent on tearing that stock motor down and rebuilding it to something vicious where the HSR will serve him well. He had the intake on hand and decided to answer one of the most FAQs on the board, that being "What will the HSR do for a stock motor and is it worth my money if I am not going to do anything else." He has documented the before and after results and posted them for all to learn from and then make their own choices on how they might decide to mod their own motors. Not to burst your bubble Free Bird but Esams knew exactly what he was doing and wanted the paperwork to prove it, everyone knows that the stock cam and heads choke the motor no matter what intake you put on it.

Great contribution Erik!!! Nothing beats hard results on paper. Let me know if your going to the track this weekend, maybe well go with you.


https://www.thirdgen.org/techbb2/sho...hreadid=172476

esams

Well Freebird, there are about five ways I could respond to that.

The average person and amateur performance enthusiast would say, "Yeah I know. The Stealth Ram sucks, don't buy it."

However, my response is this.

First of all, don't expect to get the most out of any modification without changing the computer's fuel and spark tables. For newbies, this means a new chip, or DFI (Do-it-yourself Fuel Injection, hehe)

Second, look at the horsepower difference from 4500 to 5200 rpms. It is significant. That is all I care about. The reason is because I have installed this intake to go along with my new Yank SS3600 torque converter. When I'm racing, my rpm's will never drop below 4500 rpms after the shifts.

Third, with the stock torque converter and my 3.23 gear, it's pretty obvious that I can expect my car to run a slower ET and lower mph than the 13.59 @ 99 mph it pulled before the intake swap. I also believe that with the new torque converter and headers and a correct chip, the car will be one of the first stock longblock L98's to be comfortably into the 12's, at 103 to 104 mph. This will require low 1.7 to high 1.6 60 foot times, and this torque converter is capable of such (but my drag radials aren't).

I personally find it exciting to see that the Stealth Ram is just starting to come alive at 5000 rpms!

Next up: track times before the converter swap.

Free Bird

iTrader: (1)

my appologies. Didn't realize what his intentions were.

esams

oops!

JR305

Looks good, when do you plan on adding the heads/cam? I can help you with the tuning since we will be running the same cam. But at the rate you are going you might finish before me . My project is taking forever, only get 1 day a week to work on it. This weekend hopefully I will be able to start it up.

OMINOUS_87....I have those gaskets if you still need them.

esams

No way I'm going to beat you to the heads/cam JR305. I'm buying Holley Commander 950, hooker shorties and slicks next month, then we can see where the stock heads and cam truly max out. Next I'll be spraying a 75-100 shot of juice until the engine breaks. My goal is 12's NA on stock long block, and 11's on stock long block with juice. The cam will have to sit until the bottom end goes. That could be sooner than I think though.

OMINOUS_87

JR305

Hey thanks again for the offer! I dont need them any longer though as I scavenged from Esams' old gaskets when we installed his HSR last weekend. We shoulda called you to hang when we did the swap, maybe next time. Dont rush the motor swap if you dont have to. Take all the time you need to get it right the first time. I am in the same situation as you, we finished building my 383 shorblock a week ago or so but I still have about 15 hours of porting left to finish, that is in addition to the 30ish hours I already have into the porting, the proof will be in the pudding though as I will have a massively ported and polished Superram and heads.

esams

Anyway guys, my take is that after you've done all the basic bolt ons and have hit the stock TPI wall, the HSR makes sense on a stock motor if you're willing to do either gears or higher stall or both around the same time to take advantage of the new power curve.

Also remember that on street tires, stock TPI is no picnic to hook up on launch, so less torque may actually be your friend, as sick as that sounds. Check CHP's Stealth Ram test in last month's issue. Notice they gained .4 in ET but only 1-2 mph. Hmmmm, could that be because of less tire spin?

I also need to point out that after we tuned it today, I honestly cannot feel the torque loss anymore above about 2500 rpm. My nitto drag radials still spin from a standstill, just not as bad.

Damn I can't wait until Friday!

CrazyHawaiian

Very interesting thread! I have to admit I was somewhat supprised to see the results, but not for one second did I think you wasted your money. I had questioned how much torque you loose on earlier threads and now I can see it on paper. Very good info!! The HSR is a great mod if you want to build your car for top end power. I will be following this thread to see your progress. I'm getting ready to switch from TPI to HSR pretty soon here on my 91z. Planning a fully built motor (bottom, heads, cam, everything) boosted @ 14.5 psi (Vortech S/C) that will rev to 6500. Mating this up to an aftermarket T56. I'm hoping it will hang with my friends Z06 once I get it tuned right (749 ECM DFI).

85TPI400

I think we all owe esams a big thanks for his research and an excellent post.
Although the results are what I would have expected, not just anyone would take the time to do this swap by itself and then post it for the benefit of some people on the boards.
Perhaps this will put and end to guys thinking they are going to put one of stealthrams or similar intakes on their completely stock 305s or 350s (with no other modifications at all) and make 90 more HP and have a superfast car.
It will be VERY interesting to see how much things change for the better when esams adds the other upgrades he mentioned he will be doing next month along with his converter.
Keep up the good work!

NufNuffZ28

iTrader: (10)

I know this is not directly on topic, but heat them up and put them down to 12-15 psi. I hit a 1.61 on them 245-50 R16 on my Iroc with a 3200 Coan. They can do it!!

Chris

esams

Thanks guys, I keep remembering more stuff to point out.

The air temp. during yesterday's dyno session was over 30 degrees warmer than during the TPI session, and my engine was hotter too, so factor that in for what it's worth. The dyno is supposed to factor in the correction for air temp, but at the same time, a hotter engine will always make less power than if it were cool.

Also, I now dare to say that Doug Flynn's posted dyno numbers on the FAQ are after he tweaked it with the Commander 950, not with the stock chip. Anyone agree?

Notice how rich it is in the midrange. I'm confident that a fair amount of hp and tq could be recovered from 2000-4000 rpm by leaning it out. Any guesses how much?

D F

Stock ECU, stock chip, no BS. Didn't have a WB on it, no clue what the AF was.
Doug

kevin89formula

great post with real number, I think a trip to the track will ultimately answer the question. i have a lingelfelter book where he talks about how much time the motor spend in a certain rpm range and where you want the power to be. according to that this was not a good move, however if you ultimate goal is heads, cam ang gear then it definently help latter.
it hard to say that if someone wanted heads, cam and intake which one is the best place to start. the intake is the easiest to install but i would hate to give up so much torque.

PLANT PROTECTION

iTrader: (6)

Matlock gained ~150rwhp(around there) by tuning alone. The HSR needs a tune to truely compare. Like esams said, look at that crazy A/F ratio on the stealthram run.

esams

I wonder what my problem is then. I've got no smog stuff, no cats, LS1 aluminum shaft, underdrive pullies, and lightweight wheels. All that stuff yields over 20 hp at the wheels alone just in rotational weight loss. Maybe my motor was just heat soaked.

Doug, did you guys even play with fp and timing?

esams

Say what??? Coming out of the hole exactly at your torque peak and spending the entire quarter mile run within 8 horsepower of your peak is not a good move? Not only is that a good move, it's about as sweet as it gets!

Sorry, did you mean right now with the stock converter? If so then no kidding. My torque converter will be my everything with this setup.

Fevre

:sillylol:

D F

Didn't play with anything. Just a true before and after except the after had a 58mm TB which I think can be agreed if anything might hurt things.

Wasn't an exercise to get maximum performance, just to see what bolting it on to a stock engine with no mods would do.

I've tuned stock eliminator TPI cars (with the C950) on the dyno and the TPI intake really does cause power to absolutely fall off a cliff, even with a "square lobe" stock eliminator cam.

Doug

kevin89formula

my car with bolt ons ran 13.8 with 1.95 sixty fts in 1990. the car was so consistant i could have bracket raced it!

with the 383 and big tube runner in ran 1.69 to 1.72 sixty foots with stock convertor and a mickey thompson soft street tire, no suspension work, that was 1995 at that time i was so into engine i didnt mess with convertor, as soon as the car is running right again, it is my first purchase. last time out (1996)ran 12.7 @ 109 with ported base, large tubes and 1.5 rocker, now i have superram, 1.6 comp cam s.s. believe it or not in 1995 with this combo and a 150 compucar i didnt loose much

like i said a trip to the track should tell the tale. emmision testing here is so tough that the holley is not an option

scorp508

You have serious gains left to be had with just a new EPROM being burned with a good A/F curve.

CrazyHawaiian

Will the HSR pull to 6500 rpm? (assuming the rest of the motor was built to do so). I totally agree with you Doug, my TPI setup falls on its face @ 4500 rpm.

formul8!!

I have driven a HSR intake car and was rather dissapointed. A huge loss of low end torque, almost like a bog.

Check out my sig. I have every known bolt on for a TPI (except an ignition, which is soon). With tuning and lots of practice launching, my car will be the 1st L98 run 12's with shortblock, heads and cam never removed from the car.

The best of both worlds intake is the Super ram. It is halfway between the LTR and the HSR or miniram. You keep most of the low end torque and move the high RPM power band up much higher.

Thanks for posting the dyno graphs. Even though the results were not all that impressive, you posted the info anyways. That is to be applauded!!

Good luck and I hope you find much more power in your motor!!

esams

If anyone does it without headers I'll send a hottie over to give you a bj.

JAYDUBB

Look in the latest GMHTP. I believe they ACCIDENTLY spun it to 7000 RPM!

mastrdrver

Other then the HSR, what other mods where done to the car when dynoed? Was it just the HSR? Those #s are better then a stock auto LT1, I would be supriesed to see you drop time a little.

esams

Current mod list:

Stealth Ram intake
SLP 2 on the left catback
$5 Home Depot ram air through the SS hood
Air foil
TPIS plug wires
Bosch +4's
Timing set at 10 deg. BTDC
No cats
Smog stuff removed
160 stat
TB coolant bypass
LS1 driveshaft
Centerline Tel-stars
165/15's on front
275/50/15 Nitto DR's on back

esams

C

esams

Here's some pre-track speculation for anyone who cares.

My biggest probem with the car now is 3rd gear. On the 2-3 shift, it drops all the way down to 3,000 rpm or so and takes way too long to climb back up where I need it to be.

Getting out of the hole is obviously important, but so is 3rd gear since it has to pull us through the last 3/8 or so of the quarter mile. That's where we really need to be smack in the middle of our power band, which I am now definitely NOT with the stock converter and the 3.23 gears.

I'm ranting about this torque converter because it's designed to be one hell of a band-aid for not having a low gear, but a lower gear would be even sweeter.

Check these comparisons. Since we know that my car will trap between 97 and 101 mph, look at where the rpm's would be at with a locked up torque converter. Don't laugh at my crappy cut and paste job, it's from f-body.org's gear ratio/mph calculator.

RedIrocZ-28

Ugh! I was all excited about installing the HSR and seeing how much MORE power I got and now the dyno tells the truth. Mine is now on the car, and I am just Earl Fittings away from firing it up (Damn Summit and their understocked warehouses!) The car is sitting there awaiting only those fittings and hooking the battery back up......

I hope that some tuning will make the HSR perform like it should.

cobrakiller1989

iTrader: (1)

my best 60 ft on my car with edelbrock base, slp runners, ported plenum, and stock TB was 1.88.....when i put the stealth ram on i pulled a 1.81 60 ft. im not too dissapointed with the "torque loss" these were both within two weeks of each other and on kuhmo ecsta supra 712 tires. this is on a modded 350

esams

Cobrakiller, that's an incredible 60 foot time, let alone with those tires. I had those tires in 255/50/16 and they would spin to redline instantly on the street.

I know a lot of you guys are bummed out with the dyno result, but
I seriously can't wait to show you what happens at the track before and after the converter.

Post your guess on what ET and mph I'll run at the track tomorrow (tonight if it's Friday). Whoever nails both of them the closest, I'm going to Paypal you 10 bucks just for ****s.

My guess on tomorrow's best time is.........13.90 @ 99.0 mph.

esams

Here's my last time slip numbers. Keep in mind the car cooled for an hour. The launch had no spin whatsoever, so don't expect me to spin now, especially with a burnout.

60' 1.890
330' 5.57
1/8 8.66
MPH 79.05
1000 11.34
1/4 13.59
MPH 99.93