RedIrocZ-28

esams, if you run slower with this intake. And I run slower with this intake... I'm not gonna be a happy camper.

I have I/H/C/E to my car.

Heres what I have done to my car this winter above and beyond whats in my mods list.

Ported stock heads, 2.02/1.60's, screw in studs, HSR, 1.52 rockers, Spohn panhard/LCA's, 24# injectors, and tuning.

Anyone think that I'll run faster or slower than 13.7 @99.3?


esams, you pull off a good launch of 1.85 and I bet you see a 101 mph pass at about 13.7

Screw it I'm way off

esams

Faster.

Thanks for humoring me dude. I was being conservative on mine to avoid being really pissed off if it's worse.

kevinc

Not a bad first effort, and for comparison here's my dyno run from last year with GM L98 aluminum heads and a slightly blown head gasket. Wideband O2 data is on the bottom.

It was super-lean no matter what I did...the ECM was pulling fuel out, due to the O2 sensor having been poisoned with coolant (#7 cyl was where the head gasket blew).

I'll get back to the dyno this season and report what it does.


http://www.mycar.net/mafb/registry/d...id=993&ref=det

RedIrocZ-28

What intake is on that setup kevin? You make no mention in your post.... unless you mentioned it earlier in this post

kevinc

Holley Stealth Ram.

Ricktpi

Those dyno numbers don't even begin to tell the story. My Super Ram setup ran out of usable power at 5800. My Stealth Ram kicks *** all the way to 6300 (where the Commander 950 shuts off the fuel). If you can keep the rpm in the sweet spot your car will fly. I will be running at Camaros & Firebirds @ Maple Grove on the 11th. I will post some numbers for you all as well.

Ricktpi

Those dyno numbers don't even begin to tell the story. My Super Ram setup ran out of usable power at 5800. My Stealth Ram kicks *** all the way to 6300 (where the Commander 950 shuts off the fuel). If you can keep the rpm in the sweet spot your car will fly. I will be running at Camaros & Firebirds @ Maple Grove on the 11th. I will post some numbers for you all as well.

esams

edit- didn't think I'd run but I did. Read below.

kevin89formula

esams, let me say again, great thread, i was really looking forward to see what you ran tonight. you have GOT to go next week.

rick tpi do you have any idea what rpm you are turning at the end of the 1/4mile ? did you tear up your stock rear end or just upgrade before it was an issue?

btw i predict you will run a 13.85 @ 98.33.

if i win can i exchange the $10.00 for the:

esams

Gentlemen, we have a timeslip !!!

Before I post these numbers, read carefully instead of just reacting. The result here was determined in the first 330 feet, plus the following issues.

1. The TV cable is jacked, making the car shift at 5500 rpms. I spent a lot of time in 1st and 2nd gear between 5k and 5500. It used to shift at 5200 rpms. Go back to the air/fuel chart and look how lean it gets between 5k and 5500. Way too lean!

2. I only ran one run. I could have pulled a better 60 foot, because the tires did spin. I did an idle stomp to try to flash the converter as high as possible. I should have held it at 900 rpm and nailed it.

Here's the beef:

Stealth Ram
60' 1.95
330' 5.72
1/8 8.83
MPH 79.09
1/4 13.85
MPH 98.33

Stock TPI
60' 1.89
330' 5.57
1/8 8.66
MPH 79.05
1/4 13.59
MPH 99.93

So there you go guys.

Next up: Getting the sweet spot back!

WinnipegGTA

Ok mental note here again esams, aside from the HSR what isn't a stock piece on your car. Whats's been removed, and is the ECM stock, programming wise. A converter will help lots especially on that dreaded 2-3 shift. Damn 700r4 Gearing...

esams

Stock Chip, so obviously stock computer
Stock Throttle body
Stock Exhaust manifolds
Stock Engine components of course

WinnipegGTA

and you netted 13.59 with the stock crap intake manifold and exhaust manifolds??? .....im dumbfounded i didn't think it was psbl to do. Please please tell me your secrets i have LT1's up here that can't break 13s with more mods then you.

WinnipegGTA

All i have for mods is the ASCD ramair hood and Thidgen Ramair box from Hawks, and a AFPR. Still yet to find a good LT1 to race. I raced one with 206000 km on it so like 170000Miles. I was all over him like white on ****. However my GTA only has a eyelash over 60000Miles on it

esams

There are no f--king secrets. I just disclosed every single damn thing I've done to my car to you.

Read the technical article on weight reduction. One pound of rotational weight reduction can equal the result of 5-7 pounds of dry weight. If you shed 100 pounds of dry weight, you gain about a tenth.

Traction education would be a good next step to learn about I guess.

Nighty night!

esams

Sorry, that was rude. Didn't mean to be a dick, I was really tired.

Well guys, I'm out of this thread until the converter install in a couple weeks. Hope all the info. helped!

WinnipegGTA

No, man its alright. I think im going to try what you did. Maybe with some underdrive pullies.....maybe i can net out a 13.4 or a hugh 13.3.....

esams

Kevin you sly dog

Update:

The SS3600 torque converter is in! I am extremely pleased with it's characteristics. (besides the fact that it's not locking up yet, we're troubleshooting that today) I think it's awesome that one converter can behave so mildly around town and yet be so radical at WOT.

The actual stall looks like about 3400 with the stock motor, and the shift extension in my car is about 4300 rpm. It's pretty wild having a 900 rpm range.

Oh yeah, and BTW is does hit extremely hard. The drag radials are doing the best they can, but they still get spanked instantly to redline from an idle stomp. Don't even think about this converter with street tires.

On to the match up with the new power band, it's perfect. We discovered that the fuel pressure was at 36 psi, so that explains the extreme lean condition in the high r's. We bumped it up to 44 psi to fix it up top, so we'll see what happens at the track tonight. I don't think there's any way of hooking it to a 1.70 60' though, without slicks that is.

WinnipegGTA

Good luck at the track esams! Should be a awesome run

esams

Now that I think about it, the guy at the dyno shop is an idiot. He should have put my fuel pressure to where is was at 13:1 at 5000 rpms, instead of tuning for the average over the whole range. Then we would have had a way better peak.

Woulda, coulda, shoulda, dammit! oh well, I'll shut my whiny *** up now.

TONIGHT DUDES!

kevin89formula

why that convertor?

i was talking to a guy that has done trans work for me before and he has is suggesting the vigilaty but with a 2500 to 2600 stall for my set-up, he was installing a 3000 stall in a ls1 while i was there and he seemed to think that for a street car the trans would not last as long, my trans is built

so educate me.

my set-up 383, airflows, 219 duration cam with superram, stock 3.27 gears, stock convertor.

i take it you wont be sending the hottie?

esams

Well, the method behind my madness was to work with the stock heads and cam for right now, but I really selected the converter around my permanent setup. That would be the 224/230 cam, AFR heads, and a 150 shot of juice. It just so happens that its' characteristics work well with the stock L98, now that the HSR intake is on there.

If I left the stock TPI on there, it would have been a TERRIBLE mismatch, because from 4500 to 5200 rpms, the TPI actually loses power. But now that my horsepower stays about the same from 4500 to 5200, it works great. Especially since I lost so much torque.

A 2800 to 3000 Vig would work very well for you. Since you'll have a torque motor, you should be able to reach max ET with less stall.

PS the hottie only shows up when someone posts side by side digital pics of their 12 second slip and the stock exhaust manifolds.

OMINOUS_87

kevin89formula

Esams combo is way diferent than yours. Dont compare them.

Go with a VIG. They offer the following.

VIG-259315 Vigilante 2400 RPM stall converter(w/lockup)

VIG-259415 Vigilante 2600 RPM stall converter(w/lockup)

VIG-259015 Vigilante 2800 RPM stall converter(w/lockup)

The 2400 would be way conservative, for like a daily driver with alot around town miles.

The 2800 would be more track oriented but still streetable.

The 2600 would be the mid point of both.

I would say go with the 2600 and have it loosened later if it aint enough. Pleanty of guys running 1.65-1.7 60s with the 2600 VIG

I am just finishing up my 383 Superram with 3.73s and am going with the 2800 VIG as the car will be a garage queen and not see a ton of street time.

EDIT: With a 383 you will most likely see all VIG units flash about 200rpm higher than advertised.

esams

I was thinking about starting a separate thread for this, but tonight was fun.

First run: Burned out the Nittos for 5 seconds, brake stalled it to 2500 and slammed it.

60 ft. 1.78
330 5.54
1/8 8.34
mph 81.19
1000 10.97
1/4 13.21
mph 101.09

2nd run:

Stabbed it from 1000 rpm and the tires went up in smoke.

13.2 with the stock chip and no headers guys!!! 12's are not going to be a problem. See, I told you the converter would bring it all back! We have the run on video if anyone would like to host it.

Next up: tuning the chip and going to a track that actually hooks!

esams

BTW, we found out today that my base timing was set at 12 degrees, (what a bunch of crap, I'd like to ring the guy's neck at the dyno shop). The scanner said it was pulling 8-12 degrees of timing. So we set it back to 8 and all seems to be well.

85TPI400

As I said in my first reply to this thread, with the converter change, this project is getting very interesting and changing for the better. The numbers and results are starting to get pretty impressive!
again, keep up the good work and continue to keep us posted as you continue to change more things.

esams

85TPI400, thanks. Hey what do you estimate I have left to gain with 1 5/8 hooker shorties, optimized tuning and ET Streets?

85TPI400

I think it would be safe to say it will put you in the 12s. But it is hard to say how far because now the stock cam and heads I think will come more into play. More importantly though, Your car will be fast enough to eat up and spit out many of other cars owned by people on the boards that have invested way more than double the money that you will have into your upgrades at that point. How much would you guess you have spent so far on these upgrades for your car?

esams

I'm now into the whole thing $7500, including the car itself, the $1000 torque converter, the wheels and tires, the hood, the paint job, the performance mods, the suspension mods, and the firebird cupholders.

85TPI400

Sounds good!
Just to be specific for all the others that are and will be following this thread, so people dont glance over this, see the $7500 and say holy ****. In my above post when I said for the money you have invested in upgrades, I meant just into the engine and the converter, although the suspension mods (depending on what they are) I would think is helping you out also.

esams

Stupid me, I forgot to list my suspension mods. They're a critical part of my setup.

BMR lower control arms
BMR panhard rod
Spohn LCA relocation (anti squat) brackets
Sphon subframe connectors
70/30 Lakewood front struts
50/50 Lakewood drag shocks
Front swaybar removed

PS- the Spohn SFC's are so bad *** that I barely even notice that the swaybar isn't there. Of course I don't carve any corners like most of you guys want to be able to do though.

esams

Making this thread less and less modem friendly.

Grim Reaper

Esam, good detailed work on your "step by step" process of the changes. Most DEFINITELY get that eprom tuned. It will make a world of difference.

I am doing a similar "step by step" build but I went Miniram and I skiped on step (I installed a set of ported Aluminum ZZ3 heads), but still running the stock cam too. I tossed the stock heads because they are SO BAD for causing detonation. I couldn't run more than 28* without encountering detonation (nor most guys that I know that are into eprom burning and have stock heads).

Pulling the stock heads reveals why. So much casting flash and sharp edges inside the combustion chambers. It's horrible. Even though the Aluminum ZZ3 heads were ported (Felpro 1204 size), I still found the combustion chamber too rough for my liking. Cleaning up the combustion chamber allows me to run much more spark advance (with no detonation) than the old stock cast iron would ever allow me to run. This is even though my compression ratio has increased due to the small cc heads and thin head gasket.

Though I have not had mine on a dyno yet (not readily available where I live), I can say that with the head change AND Miniram, I have MORE low end torque than my stock TPI plus NO COMPARISON on the top end. I think if you did just a head swap you'd find the same thing - no loss of bottom end torque but big gain on the top end.

You should easily see 12s with an eprom burnt hands-on for your car. If you STILL wanted to keep the stock long block, pulling those heads and cleaning them up would greatly help in handling more spark advacne without detonation.

OMINOUS_87

I have to agree with Glen, we need to change your heads Erik!!!

We will burn Esmams a custom EEPROM and install Hooker shorties by the end of the month. Esams you need to beg, borrow, cheat, or steal enough cash for heads but if you cant remember I have a set of 803 bathtub chamber wonder heads sitting in the garage that we can massge a bit and install them also.

esams

Dammit now you're making me think "what's the point" of hanging on to the stock heads if they're really that bad.

Here are my options guys. I will have a $600 budget next week to buy parts. Place your vote on what I should do:

Tuning tools (wb 02, memcal, chips- $300
headers installed (y-pipe + labor)- $300
nitrous kit and bottle fill- $600
ET Streets + 3rd pair of wheels- $600
Save for heads- $600

WinnipegGTA

Headers. Hit those 12s with a N/A L98. Show everyone that it can be done.

OMINOUS_87

Did you get confused bro!

Tuning tuning tuning!!! You know this!!!

UH- the header install will be free, well almost you will supply bratwurst and Busch light-LOL! Just bring it up to Bob's race garage and well drop em in while we sling in my 383, the 383 will get plugged in before the 24th of this month so it aint that long to wait or we can do it next weekend while I paint my engine bay.

Back to the heads again, everything Glen said is so true. The 803 combustion chambers suck!!! But we can overcome this by unshrouding the valves where needed and deburring then polishing the chambers. Work in the chambers along with a gasket match at the ports and a little bowl work should get ya upto at least 220cfm, no they will not be the baddest heads around but for the chump change involved it will be worth the effort as anything is better then the stock flow of 200cfm. This would be very interesting actually as we would be able to find out how far we could take the stock cam into the 12s. Back to what Glen said again, if we can get the heads in good enough order so they will hold 34-36 timing without knock retard you will be in real good shape.

esams

Yes I'm confused again, it's my nature. That's why you need to set me straight.

Man one of these days I'll actually be able to stock up my fridge with good food instead of selling my soul to the devil for a tenth at a time!

Ok Mark, we'll stick with plan A, but after we do that, I'm taking a breather for a while and we'll focus on your car.

REDZ28

I went 13.11 at 101.6 and a 1.73 60ft. with my 91 z28 350 tpi after some mods. It has a zz4 cam, 3.42 gears, trans pac shift kit, 160 stat, air foil, underdrive pulleys, timing at 12 degrees BTDC, fuel pressure at 50 psi, slicks, aluminum drive shaft, home made ram Air, coolant bypass and Ground the plenum behind the throttle body, 1 5/8 shorty headers, no cats and a dynomax super turbo muffler. Evrything else is stock. Im happy with my LTR setup!

esams

stock torque converter to run that 1.73 60' ?

REDZ28

Yes!!

esams

Daaaaaaayammmmm !!!

Kingtal0n

when you change the stall / gears the timing profiles are supposed to be totally different than stock arnt they?

with that said, are you running the stock timing profile? where does your advance come in? usually people like a lot of timing right around their flash stall to make the most off the line power. have you tuned it this way yet? from what ive read you still have the stock chip.

im just curious how its going with the timing issue, un-tuned timing can eat up a LOT of HP. going from 36* @ 3800 to 36* in by 2400 RPM made my car feel like i hit the n20 compared to before.

and what fuel do you use? oh and whats your fuel economy look like... how does the converter "feel" as far as slipping around town and eating fuel up?

85TPI400

I have to agree, since nobody ever does this, Forget the heads and tuning for now, slap on the headers and hit the 12s with stock longblock and bad tuning.

esams

Headers and tuning it is. I can afford to do both during the next 2 weeks.

I know it would be easy with slicks, an easy .1 in the 60' and .25 at the end, but we'll do that next month.

My girlfriend is coming down on May 30, and she really missing drag racing. She wants to drive the car down the strip REALLY bad that Friday night.

So we'll video the run of the first chic to send the stock heads/cam L98 into the 12's. damn that's going to be sexy!

SLP_GTA

iTrader: (1)

Hey King, how do you change the total timing to come in @ 2400
prom burning??
Also does the autoXray tell you what RPM your total timing is?

esams

Sorry I didn't answer Kingtalon's questons. Yes there are all kinds of timing issues with my car, and we haven't touched any of them yet. I used '89 octane with the stock TPI dyno and track runs, but now I don't dare run anything but '91.

OMINOUS_87 is going to work my spark tables. I'm lucky to have met him, as he is the only source of tuning I have!

As far as fuel mileage, it sucks right now. The converter is fine, because it locks up pretty quick. But gas mileage has been worse since the intake went on, another thing that a new prom will fix.

RedIrocZ-28

I've been away from this post for a while. I plan on going to the racetrack in 2 weeks. We'll see what a cam, HSR, heads, exhaust, headers, geared, convertored car will do in the 1/4 on AWFUL tuning. It feels fast as hell at night We have midnight madness at one of our racetracks here. Its 7pm-midnight. Its about 500ft above sea level there. Midnight temps and low elevation should make for some exciting numbers I hope

BTW, I am running the ARAP chip pretty much untouched. friggin 48* total advance... considering a 6* BTDC base... I'm more like at 14* base... hmmm 50*+ advance... strangely, my car runs rich enough to where I get very little knock... ok I'm rambling.

I'll post results.

OMINOUS_87

Kingtal0n

For the track we will be pulling back low rpm timing somewhat and turning full advance on right at the converter flash point. Gonna start with 31 and work from there based on ET and knock retard.


RedIrocZ-28

You should not have your base set past 6 unless you have made serious modifications to the stock timing curve. I think you may want to spend some time understanding how the timing curve in the chip is actually applied under different driving conditions otherwise your performace will be very poor due to knock retard or worse yet you might break something, over timed and under fueled is an engines worst nightmare.

1bad91Z

iTrader: (1)

Ominous87 - carbed cars dont use knock sensors so I almost turned mine off. I set it up to only pull 2*'s out max under knock attack, and I sped up the recovery. The car still runs on the slightly rich side, so I think it will be ok. My question for you is, what is the factory AUJP setting (speed density) for total max timing? Is it in the 40's? And if so, should I lower that beings I turned the knock sensor setting to only 2* max retard under knock?

Mike (1bad91Z)