Free Bird

iTrader: (1)

I can't decide. I'm leaning toward the 195's cuz the site says from 2000-6500rpm. its a ZZ4 w/ the mods in the sig. The cam specs are as follows

w/ 1.6 rockers
230/244 @ 0.050
.544/.576
its the CC306. I'm planing on the HSR and spaying a 150 shot. I really like these heads and have searched the boards, but they mostly end up in some big debate and people start going ape $hit cuz someone else doesn't agree w/ em'.

I also wanted to know where I could go to get a good price on them. All I really want is the bare heads and valves. Everything else I've already upgraded on my ZZ4/l98 heads.

One more, how much does it normally cost to get the heads milled down to 58cc to keep my stock compression? Would there be any benifit to not milling the heads?

Thanks in advance.

85MikeTPI

iTrader: (2)

There's not much diff between the 190s and 195's
except the 195's are 1205 intake gasket matched
and the 190s are more like 1204 matched.. If you want to port match the HSR to 1205, you should
probably go ahead with the 195's with your RPM ranges..

The prices for my AFRs (including the 58cc chambers = $250) are
listed here:

http://www.eecis.udel.edu/~davis/z28/winter01/heads/

I'm running the 190s with an HSR right out of the
box. It made 360 rwtq, 340 rwhp and ran 11.8@114.

The 190's have the same flow as the 195s, the 195's just bias more to the upper RPMs and have
the gasket match already done...

You can get good prices on AFR head thru thunderracing.com.

Definitely look into other exh valves and/or springs rather
than the standard AFRs.. Mine floated at 6000 and did alot
of damage to the valve seats and valve tips..

thunder can help you with a spring/valve package to go with a
bare set of AFRs that will happily rev under the HSR..

[I forgot to mention, that by milling down to 58cc chambers,
your piston-valve clearances reduce and in my case, the .525 LT4-HOT cam lift is the max I can
support. If the cam you list is in your future, you may
need to keep that in mind...]

HTH
mike

TPI Guy

GofasterFirebird

iTrader: (3)

The only reason that AFR says that the 195s are for more rpm is that they are designed for the Victor Jr. or other similar intakes whicj in turn are for more rpm. By designed, I mean the upper part of the port is matched to the bigger gasket like mentioned earlier.

Mike, it seems that 340 RWHP and 114 mph dont mix. Is your car light? What kind of dyno?

86 IROC

iTrader: (3)

Mike - I wasn't aware the springs had problems... that is good to know though. I have 195's on my motor and have yet to get it running. It seems every time I turn around I have to redo something.

Free bird - I have the same camshaft and rockers, I am currently trying to find someone to trade me (8) 1.5's for (8) of my 1.6's. The AFR heads have a great Int. to exhaust ratio and tend to like a single pattern cam better. Take that FWIW - I'd persoanlly like to be able to dyno my car w/ all 1.6's - then again w/ 1.5's on the exhaust to see if there is any difference to make it worth the swap. The 195's come 68cc, I had mine milled down to 64cc - cost me $100 a few years back when I bought the heads.

85MikeTPI

iTrader: (2)

Too low or too high? 8-)

It is an automagic car, manuals like yours will
show higher numbers at the wheels..

The car is 3700lbs with me in it.. Haven't done
much to lighten it up, stock interior, body, wheels, etc..

The dyno is a dynojet.

http://www.eecis.udel.edu/~davis/z28...age021105.html

(The 340 rwhp is SAE corrected btw, STD correction put it at more like 365 and the temp
during the 114mph run was the same as STD
temp, 59 deg.)

HTH
mike

Ricktpi

Agressive roller cams & standard AFR springs don't mix. I ended up upgrading to Comp 987 spring to cure valve float @ 6k.

86 IROC

iTrader: (3)

Yet another bad experience w/ the stock springs on AFR's.

I have a Hydra-Rev kit, but now I'm second guessing the springs. I guess I'll just have to spin it up to 6000 + and see what happens.

Free Bird

iTrader: (1)

I have the h-11 tool steel springs on now from crane cams. They're rated to .600" lift and 7500rpm.

Do you think I'll have interferance problems with the lift and the 58cc chambers? If so then how much performance will I loose If I drop the compression by using the 68cc heads?

Thanks.

85MikeTPI

iTrader: (2)

A friend (kevinc) just had 58cc AFRs done and got about the
same range of P-V clearances as me (0.100 exh, 0.090 ink)
with the 0.525 lift HOT cam, so I suspect its a distinct
possibility you would too. I don't have my compression
calculator handy, but I believe the rule of thumb is like
a 5% loss in power going down a full point of compression
so in the grand scheme of cam vs compression, I believe
you'll make out going with less compression and more
cam...

mike

89gta383

iTrader: (5)

You can always port the 190's to get what you want. Mine are now 206 cc, and flow 295 and 235 @ .600 lift. They were also milled from 79cc to 64cc.

Ricktpi

The AFR 195's I got were gasket matched to a 1205 Felpro & the HSR ported out very easily as well.

Free Bird

iTrader: (1)

How can I calculate the performance I'm gunna loose if I go w/ the stock chamber size?

85MikeTPI

iTrader: (2)

Calculate Performance, or Compression?

Compression you can calculate, performance
you'll have to guesstimate or simulate..

Try Desktop Dyno 2000 software if you want
to play around.. It's not the best, but
does a good enough job for the common
street car..

mike

8Mike9

Another point on the 190 vs 195 issue, I'm pretty sure they are different castings as well, with the 195's having more meat for future work...ofcourse this is only needed if you plan to keep working the engine.

Give AFR a call, they're good folks and will let you know what you need, given future aspirations as well.

doc

The 190s are a direct bolt on with EGR stuff and crossover.

The 195s are a different manifold all together, they will bolt up, but I think the they do not have the proper EGR stuff.

I least this is what I remember about the two heads. Call AFR and get the details.

You can port the 190 out a little bit, very similar to the 195s for flow rates. Thats what I'm going to do to my 190s.
But watch out, I did break one AFR valve spring. I purchase a complete set of AFR 190 heads for direct bolt on application, springs and all. Their valve springs have a problem.

kevinc

Good point about their valvetrain hardware, I ordered mine without valves and springs. I haven't seen/heard any spring breakage, but I've seen valve float when matched with a HOT cam. No thankya.

I went with Manley Race-Flo valves, lightest non-Titanium valves I could find, and CC 987 springs and Titanium retainers at the recommendation of Dave @ Thunder Racing. Haven't hit the street yet w/ all the snow and salt, so we'll see what the dyno says if I get a break in the weather.

TRAXION

Definitely go with better springs on the AFRs. I consider myself very lucky that my AFR springs are still alive. Kevin's route of getting a local shop to assemble the bare heads is the best idea. If you demand to have everything installed by AFR then go with their competition package with the upgraded springs.

Tim

Free Bird

iTrader: (1)

ABOUT THE SPRINGS..........

I know. Thank you for all of your input. I've upgraded to crane cam H-11 spring (.600 lift and 7500rpm) I just want the bare heads and valves. I have 3/8" screw in studs now as well. What I do want to know is which head to get. Not what spings to put on.

I'm trying to find out if the cc306 cam is going to react better to the 190's or the 195's. Keep in mind I will be going w/ the stealth ram and a 150 shot in comparison to the 100 shot I'm using now.

I was leaning toward the 195's b/c their (AFR) site says something like 2000-6500, am I on the right track here? What would my compression drop to if I just bolted on the 68cc heads?

86 IROC

iTrader: (3)

I have the 195's and the same cc306 in my 383 - I am trying to get some 1.5 ratio rockers for the exhaust side currently. I think it will perform better w/ a single pattern camshaft. Your compression - all things remaining the same other than combustion chamber size... should drop about .4 - .5, but I think the ZZ4's stock head gaskets are .028" compressed. You could gain back some compression w/ Fel-Pro .015" compressed gaskets.

Free Bird

iTrader: (1)

86 IROC, thanks. Why do you think it will perform better w/ a single pattern?

86 IROC

iTrader: (3)

Look at the exhaust flow #'s as compared to heads of other brands in the same class. The AFR's are very strong on the exhaust side. AFR, as well as a few other people have suggested running a single pattern cam for better #'s. As it was explained to me by a Comp Cams employee: the reasoning for a dual pattern, the added lift and duration on the exhaust side helps push out the burned exhaust gasses on engines that use heads with a weak exhaust port.

Sounds good in theory, I'm sure there have been some dyno tests to validate this. If anyone cares to further prove or disprove the above theory - I am all ears.

Free Bird

iTrader: (1)

Makes sense to me.

Do you think the same would hold true even for nitrous applications? What would be the dissadvantage to running heads and or cam w/ "excessive" exhaust flow?

86 IROC

iTrader: (3)

I am not sure about adding nitrous into the equation. Your best bet there would be to talk to Comp Cams, and maybe NX, a few others. I know that Rick Lindstedt ran a slightly "tweaked" version of the cc306 in his car along with AFR 190's. His car ran amazing - 12.50's @ 109+ on street radials and with TPI. He changed the induction before I ever got to ask him about how it did on the bottle. The main thing I maintain about nitrous cams is - wide LSA. Any kind of unnatural boost seems to love a cam with 114+ LSA in my experiences. But, there are others much more knowledgable about this than I. Rick goes by Skweezn87 on this board I believe. He would more than likely be willing to answer any questions about the combination of this cam & heads and adding nitrous, along with any other questions you might have. Rick was a big help to me when I had any kind of question, and was the one who suggested the cc306 cam to me in the first place. Hope this helps.