ninety1TAgta

I was reading in the wheels section of the paper a few months back about the Drive Clean program and saw something about exemption for modified cars. Just wondering if any mechanics or informed people know the requirements to meet this exemption (I think its not a complete exemption but it only states that you meet pre-81 emissions)?
Also, has anyone personally passed emissions with no air tubes on their headers?
Need to get a drive clean test within a few months and buying SLP 1.75s tommorrow

IROCKER

Just get your drive clean test down right before the the headers get installed. THe drive clean certificate is good for like a year or something, then once you get your sticker you got two years before you need it again.

I think the modified part you're asking about is in regards to the "hot rod" status. Unless you have a new or rebuilt engine work done, headers alone won't put you in that status. I do now people that have passed their drive clean with long tube headers.

Acceld Z

A guy I know, with an engine exactly like mine, just passed emmisions with ease. He has no EGR, AIR tubes, or any of that other stuff. He did, however, have converters. His engine has a healthy cam and aftermarket heads. So, to answer your question.....yes, you can pass the dyno test without AIR tubes. Now, the visual inspection........that's a entirely different story.

Where are you located?

ninety1TAgta

IROCKER: Its a long story but to put it in short I snapped a exhaust manifold bolt and have a huge passenger side exhaust leak where it meets the y-pipe. Cant really drive it let alone get an emissions test till I get it fixed (got worst case scenario quotes for 200-250, and it probly would be worst case) or new headers. Although thats exactly what I would do if i could.

Acceld Z: Thats exactly what I was hopin to hear! The visual will be a problem your right but my sister and brother in law goto a mechanic in smith falls for everything and he sounds like he might let it slide. I live between spencerville and kemptville.

KILLDOZER

I have done extensive research on this one, this is the first year that Drive Clean is effective in my area.

Thereis only one way out, and that is to gain what the Government calls "Hot Rod Status" what this does for you is make your car exempt from the visual part of the test, they only check for a gas cap (no they don't even check under the car for cat's ) What you have to do though is install an engine in your car that was never offered in that paticular make or model of vehicle. So if you put a 283,302,327,400,427,454,502 V8 in your third gen F Body - you will be ok, but you will still have to pass for 1980 standards, but they are very forgiving. You will also need to provide the test facility with a bill of sale stating the year make and displacement of the engine (no s@it ! like the bos you used to fudge to pay less tax on buying a used car in the old days You will also have to provide a memo on letterhead from a dealer or the mfg of your car stating that such and such motor was never available in such and such vehicle.

Now as GM owners, this allows a few other possibilities. Given the correct paperwork, is the test facility going to be able to tell the difference between a 302/327/350/283/305 ? I.E. you mod up your 350 that was OEM in your car, brig a B.O.S. and some letterhead from a dealer, to the effect that the engine in your car is actually a 327/283/305/302 (I wouldn't risk a 400 in case you run into an inspector that actually knows GM's) and voila! HOT ROD! Well try it at your own risk, stroker motors should follow the same rules.

Acceld Z

If it came from the factory with a cat con on it, it has to have a cat con on it to be legal regardless of hot rod status or not.

George

91/TA - There's a schitload of previous posts on this board which deal with this. Try searching under drive-clean, emissions etc - and don't believe anything you read in the wheels section of the toronto star

ninety1TAgta

Thanks killdozer thats helpful. Do you think a stroker crank alone would do it or would they be **** and check the numbers?
george toronto wheels section is **** and ottawa citizens wheels is almost as bad. I think I read it in ottawas though. The writers for both papers must get some bribes or jigalo BJs from ford cause 80-90% of the content is ford, no exageration. And when the topic is on gm, they always find a way to slip in how the ford counterpart is better.

mike81monte

First I would like to say HI to everyone. I'm new to this message board, but a regular at montecarloss.com

This year I had lots of problems with the emission police and tickets. So I learned about this "HOT ROD" status and looked into it. After emailing drive clean many times and getting stupid answers I finally got a good response. The email said if your car is older than a 99 and has a different motor it is a hot rod and is tested by 1980 standard. I listed all the emission equiptment on it and they said that it is not required because 1980's cars didn't have these parts. So I printed out that email and also saved it and I keep a copy in my car. I'm not sure if it would save me from getting another ticket but If I go to court and show them that drive clean told me I didn't need it they would problably drop the ticket.

P.S. - IROKER did you get my P.M.

88AstroMan

Guys, the "Hot Rod" legislation is not ALL it's cracked up to be. I'm a regular reader here, our rides are similar, though mine is a refridgerator, an Astro van with a 5.0. If anything qualifies as a "hot rod" a V8 mini van does. I went through 3 grueling tests, eventually passing by installing a new Dynomax cat, setting the ignition to 0*, new plugs, wires, 02 sensor, EVERYTHING, I barely passed with a 111, the pass level was 112! There is OBVIOULSY something really wrong with the E program. The week before, the test center in Newmarket did a same year 350 S10 pick up that had to pass a 300 level! I had no help from the gov, and none of the test tech's could explain the low pass level. All they did was check the gas cap, and stick the sniffer in the tail pipe. I'd suggest you tell'em it's anything BUT a standard OEM engine, it may work for you. Good Luck.

KILLDOZER

Acceld Z:

Hot Rod status removes the visual inpection (short of the gas cap and visual smoke from the tailpipe) so no cat's needed (check with drive clean, *fact*)

nintey1TAgta:

In the strictest sense, a 383 was never made by Chevrolet so you could get the memo from a dealer with no problem. But you do have the issue of the Bill of Sale, but I'm sure you can find a creative solution to that one

Well I just stopped writting and called drive clean, and you are SOL on the stroker... at least based on the 350 ci. They will consider a stroked 350 as a modified 350 and if your car was available with a 350 then you will not get hot rod status. You might try stroking some other 4"bore smallblock to 383 like a 302 (if you can find one) or a 327 (are the mains the same size as 350?) then they will consider your car a hot rod because they will see the engine not as 383 but as a 327 etc..

88AstroMan:

Did you tell them it was a hot rod? Did you produce a B.O.S. stating the CID and year of the engine? Did you produce a letterhead from a dealer stating that the engine was never put in an 88 Astro? Sounds to me that you are being tested for an 88 model year, if you did do what is listed above, go get tested somewhere else - a 5.0 Astro ain't stock, it should be obvious to the "testing personel" (the guys some of which I hear are driving the front wheels of mustangs and such up on the rollers ! )

ninety1TAgta

Well thats no good... actually if I could find a 302 shortblock I might actually keep it as a 302. those things are blessed with the rpms. imagine a 302, t56, 3.73 or 4.10 gears and a hooker catback to bring out the sound of constant revs!
what do you mean by driving the front wheels of mustangs up on the rollers? You mean just doing test where it says they are goin 40km or whatever it is whey are really at or just above idle?

Daz

iTrader: (1)

no cat = not mentioned in "Hot Rod" status of the drive clean Emission program

BUT it is mentioned in the Highway Traffic Act to not to be tampered with..so any shop can refuse tampered emission systems..

Daz

Acceld Z

This is the last time i'm gonna type this out..........If your car came with a converter from the factory, by law it has to have a converter on it. If any of you doubt that, just mention that you don't have one next time you see a police officer or during your next e-test.

88AstroMan

KDozer, The tech that did the test owns an Astro, half the shop does, they loved my little 5.0CL. On my 3rd attempt at the 3rd shop I went so far as to tell them it was a 5.7, and was tested at 5.7 (2 failures @ 5.0). My E test print out has got 5.7 on it. The "E" test apparently can't be messed with, the data is up-loaded to another system that actually does the test. I watched REAL carefull in the last test. I believe it was done correctly, the tech was rooting for me. It's just a gov. a joke!!!

KILLDOZER

What I ment by putting the front wheels of a mustang on the rollers is that some "testers" are so stupid regarding cars that they don't realize a mustang is RWD ! Imagine what would happen if no one told the "tester" before he hit the gas!

Regarding the cat, you are right about the other legislation requiring a cat if it was originally so equipped. What I was saying is that you will not fail the O.D.C. test for the lack of one, if you have hot rod status. I have never owned a vehicle which kept the cat throughout my time as owner, and I have never been in any sort of trouble with the Police because of that, maybe I am unique in this respect??? I would not hesitate to run no cats if my exhaust was not too loud (in fact that is what I am doing now). Well, regarding the Highway Traffic Act requiring cats, that will be up to the vehicle owner if he wants to take that risk or not, and in all honesty I hear that the aftermarket hi flow cats are only a minor plug in the exhaust.

Astro:

You should find out if you were being tested to 1988 standards, I can't see how you would fail 1980 (hot rod) standards unless your engine is seriously modified, my brother has an 88 grand marquis with a 5.0 in it and 320,000 km on it - it passed first time no problem this was an $800.00 car . I could be wrong but it sure sounds like you are being expected to pass standards for a stock 88 astro. I personally own an '82 GT Mustang (sorry guys) that I bought out in T.O.. At that time ODC was not in my area but was in effect in Toronto, I got it cheap because it would not pass the E test visual, but the previous owner had it run and paid for the Dyno test anyway - and it barely failed for 1982 standards - So here is the engine that barely failed for 1982 standards:
88' roller motor
b303 cam
torker II intake
650 Holley DF DP
ported E7's
Mac shortys
2.5" off road H Pipe (no cats)
2.5" flowmaster 2 Chamers
no egr, no charcoal can, no pollution controll whatsoever
374,000 km (yes it burns a little oil)
This car is now exempt, but look at the mods! and it only failed the Dyno by a small margin - just a point of reference for you to look at your Astro, it should pass for 1980, my car probably would.

Good Luck

Eric2ndGen

I think the problem in regards to the '88 Astrovan with a 305 was that the geniuses at the DCF's you went to probably picked another 1988 vehicle with a 305 in it to compare- as opposed to a similar 1980 vehicle with a 305. I.e. they used say the numbers from a 1988 Camaro w/305 instead of a 1980 cargo van w/305- as we all know- there was no such vehicle as an Astrovan in 1980. Maybe not even the DCF's fault- the Driveclean numbers are screwball sometimes anyways.

As an example of this- a 1984 V8 Chevy car with a 305 needs lower emissions than the same 1984 Chevrolet car with an Olds 3.8L engine. Does this make any sense? Of course not- why should an engine that is 32% larger in displacment need to put out LESS pollutants than a smaller engine in the same chassis? Both engines had exactly the same emissions devices on them. I have been convinced after seeing comparative reports on like-for-like vehicles with only an engine difference that in fact DriveClean has been structured to fail certain 'target' vehicles- i.e. say a 1984 Monte Carlo with a 305 vs. a 1984 Monte Carlo with a 3.8L (alot more 305s would still be on Ontario roads after 18 years than the 3.8Ls)- so they have 'targeted' 1984 Monte Carlo's with 305s vs. the 3.8L- why? Driveclean isn't really about pollution- it's a 'feelgood' program and I'm sure the auto manufacturers contribute alot of money to the Ontario PC party.

If- in the Astrovan example- the wrong vehicle was selected to use as the 'baseline' for #'s that have to be met- you could be screwed before you start. Next time- try to see if they can verify they have used 1980 specs from a similar vehicle (i.e. a cargo van which had, frankly, fewer pollution control devices on it compared to cars in the same year).

88AstroMan

I passed months ago. All I can say was it was an expensive joke. I probably drive one of the cleanest burning Astro's on the planet! My buddy's AWD 3 year newer 4.3 Astro had to pass a 200 level, mine should have been a "walk in the park" with 1980 "hot rod" statis. It got real scary for a while, I did the V8 swap. Then the gov. almost wouldn't let me drive it, and it's a HOOT! Soccer mom mini van, 40ft of rubber, chirp to 2nd, and GONE! Not your mama's mini van. This is a great board, hope you guys don't mind me here.

johnyIROC

88Astro, you are definitely welcome here.

As for the E-test.... I got hot-rod status by saying I had a 355. In all fairness a 350 was never offered in 1983, but they had no clue anyways. Chances are they will take your word for it. I had a converter on the car at the time, but they never checked for one.

Acceld Z is correct though.... even if you pass an e-test with no converter that does not mean you are in the clear. If a cop sends you for an MTO shakedown you could be in for it. On the other hand... you usually get enough time before the shakedown to throw a converter on unless they really don't like you and decide to impound your car.

Even with the hot-rod 1980 status, I just squeeked by with timing set at 0* as well.