Paul_Hughes_87 T/A

Like a new car and I had no cat

darbleinad

did you get the "hot rod" status or was it that your car was in such good tune and the emission levels for the 87 305 so high that it didnt matter if had no cat?

also...how mnay kms on your 305?

darbleinad

did you get the "hot rod" status or was it that your car was in such good tune and the emission levels for the 87 305 so high that it didnt matter if had no cat?

also...how mnay kms on your 305?

SBlackfoot

They tested it without a cat? It shouldn't have passed the visual inspection, unless you mean your cat has been gutted.

Paul_Hughes_87 T/A

no hot rod status,
very good tune,
164000km,
gutted cat
and no visual test

darbleinad

nice work

Slade1

That's a testament to good tuning for a car if you passed with a gutted cat.

F-BIRD'88

The don't look for a cat at the Drive Clean test. Just that he exhaust system is not leaking.

It is still Ilegal to operate a car in Ontario that origionaly
came with a cat, with it removed or gutted. "Hot Rod or not. This is under the Environmental Protection act of Ont. and a cop can and will nail ya big.

Just so ya know.

SBlackfoot

Uh, they do actually. Or at least they're supposed to. Maybe they skip the visual with the hot rod status, but otherwise they shouldn't even test it without a cat if they're going by the book. Naturally a gutted cat would pass the visual, but that's not the point.

Cruzin Kaz

I'm not sure where you got that info. If a car is posted for ETEST as a HOT ROD . You are not required to have a cat. If when testing a vehicle it is considered unsafe, or not safetied the shop is required to turn down the test... in other words they won't do it. Most cars under "HOT ROD" don't have cats. I don't, and canadian tire did mine. If it isn't safe Canadian tire sure wouldn't do it. Cats are not required by safety standards, just that the exhuast doesn't leak, and that it goes past the passenger compartment.

If a cop tries to give you a ticket for no cat, I'd laugh at him. Tell him to show you his Ministry of transportaion badge. This is not illegal to have no cat. A Cop is not a legal inspector for cars and can't give you a ticket for this... no heahlight or something, maybe...no cat Show me a Cop who is a Ceritified automotive Technician and then maybe he could get ya... with the help of the M.T.O

Acceld Z

If your car came from the factory with a converter(s), you are required by law to have one.

George

This is from the EPA current to June 22/02


Emission Control Equipment for Kit Cars / Hot Rods

Section 4.2

A hot rod that gets a motor replacement on or after Jan.1/99 shall receive a motor designed to meet emissions standards at least as stringent as those achieved by the original motor with all its original emission control equipment attached and functioning and the replacement motor shall have the original cat and all the original emission control equipment, or equivalent replacements, included or usually included with the replacement motor by the manufacturer of the motor.


Catalytic Converters

Section 5.4

No person shall operate a motor vehicle that was manufactured with a cat if the cat or any replacement thereof:

(a) Is not capable of performing the function for which the converter was intended; or,

(b) Is disconected, removed or otherwise altered so that it is not capable of performing the function for which the converter was intended.


Emissions Control Systems

Section 7.1

If a motor vehicle is manufactured with a system or device to prevent or lessen emissions:

(a) The system or device, or any replacement thereof, must be kept in such a state of repair that it is capable of performing the function for which it was intended.

I'd be pleased to find out that none of this means anything and that I can do whatever I want with my car but somehow I doubt it.

Slade1

I'm with AccelZ as I do recall that if the car came with a cat, it's required to have a cat even if it has hot rod status. The only clause I think that doesn't require a cat is a kit car or something like that.

SBlackfoot

I agree with Acceld Z too. If it came with one originally it has to have one now, at least visually so. I even asked the tech when I watched my Jimmy fail and she said that they won't test it without one, and it won't count towards the $450 it may need (that hurts).

Of course some facilities may be a little more flexible and even skip the visual altogether, but if they get caught there goes their Drive Clean license.

Slade1

The cat can be added to the cost if it has to be replaced due to it being faulty. If the car doesn't have one, but was built with one then it can't be added to the cost but depending on mechanic's discretion can or can't be a cost. Gm's cat's cost roughly $600 so there goes the waiver hehe. For that price though you can get GM's new cat2 design for the LS6 type II engine which is one hell of a performance cat. Has 2 bricks, 1 platinum and 1 rhodium based inside with backpressure as low as it gets to keep the cat working. We're talking almost no backpressure for this design as I recall. According to 2002 vette tests this gained the vette like 10 hp.

F-BIRD'88

Read the Environmental protection Act of Ontario,
The law says clearly that any car produced with a cat must have a cat (working ) to be legal in Ontario. ( that is all f bodies that are 1975 or newer. Don't matter if you passed a Etest or not. A cop is a agent of the
ministry of environment and MTO. The fine is large like $400
for not cat. And they do write 'em. You won't be laughing when you get a mit full of tickets. This is a separate law from the Drive Clean Act. Just so ya know........ You can download the Act and read it and weep, yourself.

Daz

iTrader: (1)

Its a $500 for the owner and $10,000 for the shop that worked on it(remove)

Daz

Slade1

Wow.. its gone thru some revisions since I first saw the initial draft. Its no wonder shops are afraid to do any exhaust work on a car with no cat that they know full well came with a cat...

Cruzin Kaz

Hey what do I know I guess? All the mechanics I've talked to must be stupid... My car is a G body by the way> I'm not 100% but I don't think so. Least not around here, no cop can take your car of the road without a MTO officer present .

Slade1

I know for a fact in Vancouver, they are excersizing the full extent of police powers on cars there. Basically in their traffic act, cops had discretion on what was a safe car. With this in hand, even though they weren't offcial mechanics, they had full power in deeming what they believed to be an unsafe car and used this on ricers during their crackdown on street racing. Knowing full well how hazy Ontario law is when it comes to anything, its only safe for us to assume that police can and will use that power if there is sufficient need to do so. Be it a bunch of smog days in a row or a bunch of drag racing, if they choose to use this power due to circumstances how exactly are you gonna win in court? I think you stand a better chance convincing a judge you aren't street racing than proving that your car that was built with a cat doesn't need a cat when its specified in drive clean.

I'm not saying its absolute, I personally haven't heard any stories of cops round here doing much in the way of evaluating cars. Unfortunately there are cops that enforce drive clean in the GTA area during blitzes and the thing is if they can do drive clean blitzes from time to time, that means that the "power" to enforce the drive clean rules probably exists somewhere. Unless you got a lawyer with complete interpretations of the law to disprove this, I'm gonna stick with my opinion that police officers can enforce the drive clean act on you if they see fit to do so.

Cruzin Kaz

You win I'm wrong? Just to let you know though. We take about 40 cars a month to be E tested. 10% fail. When they do, we have to make them pass, which they all do in the long run. The sheets given to us for Hot Rod restrictions say right on it cats., not required, EGR not required, Perge canistor not required, PCV not required. I wouldn't beleive everything, everyone reads. This is the government after all. Liars and cheats, politics! I am not trying to be a smart *** or anything, just trying to fill everyone in on the truth. These thing may be different in other regions, maybe cops do have the given right to ticket for this in your area, but here and now they cannot. Not without a M.t.o officer or a enviroment officer. This may change. Who knows when or where. This topic is getting old though, I will not reply to this topic again.
:rockon:

F-BIRD'88

I personally witnessed a buddy get handed a bunch of tickets
for no tailpipes, no cats, etc etc total $1200. On a 2nd gen camaro, here last year. He was not speeding or otherwise
breaking the law to cause the cops to come on to him. His car is not a heap either.
He was just pulling out of the donut shop where we hang out
on cruise night. He runs high flow cats now!!!

The laws making cops agents of the MTO and envorinment
and able to inspect your car right there on the road side
have been on the books long before Drive Clean ever came along.
Having a pass on the e-test does not exemp you from these
laws. Or exempt you from a roadside exhaust sniffer test.
Actually they have been real leaniant on enforcement
overall, cause we all like to have a 'lil fun with our cars.

Another buddy got roadside hassled for no cats on a 1969 camaro
recently, go figure!!! The cop had to let 'em go cause he
got a little education on the smog laws and 1969 camaros
The car was older than the cop.... Ha Ha Ha...

Not trying to win an argument or one up ya.
Just wanted you to know where WE all stand...legaly.

Slade1

You know the funniest thing occurred at a small strip mall near where I work. An OPP was parked at the mcdonalds in the mall and walked over to my car. I made a bit of noise with some engine revving when I pulled into the mall, I just like hearing the sound of my flowmaster reflect off the walls, sounds great. After I had parked and was about to head off to the small pizza store there, the cop walked up looked underneath my car. I asked him if anything was wrong and he said he was checking my car if the exhaust was in working order lol. He saw the new pipes and realized I had it all legit, but asked me if I "gutted" my cat. Even if I had gutted it, I wouldn't have told him but since it was a good of a time as any, I asked him about police power with taking cars he sees unfit and basically he said that the power to take cars off the road is at the discretion of the officer at the scene. If he has sufficient cause to think that your car may not be safe, he can and does have the power to do it. Like all laws its subject to interpretation in a court, but even if they aren't mechanics or ministry they are enabled by law to make those judgement calls. I would imagine they would have that power else their drive clean blitzes they pull on the 401 in and around the GTA would be illegal. Since I wanted my pizza and wasn't in for an argument, I agreed and went about my business.