killed a coyote
05-03-2013, 05:34 AM
#51
TGO Supporter/Moderator
iTrader: (12)
Join Date: Jul 1999
Location: SALEM, NH
Posts: 11,743
Likes: 0
Received 89 Likes
on
75 Posts
Car: '88 Formula, '94 Corvette, '95 Bird
Engine: LC9, 355" LT1, LT1
Transmission: T5, Zf6, 4L60E
Axle/Gears: 3.42, Dana44 3.45, 3.23
Re: killed a coyote
That cam is recommended for around a 9.25:1 static compression ratio because it has very little overlap. On 10.3:1 you wan't way more cam for a number of reasons.
What's your total ignition advance?
I calculated your carb requirements with your cam specs, compression ratio, the airflow dynamics I know about your intake manifold, and your heads I come up with between 596 to 616 cfm depending on where your actual cam is timed and your actual volumetric efficiency.
Building a winning combination is more than just picking parts out of the summit catalog. A new member like yourself would probably benefit from losing the attitude and reading. I've got over a decade of technical contributions and real-world test results posted on the forums.
The converter isn't loose at all, again, an ill informed blanket statement that shows your need to have an opinion on everything.
The gear (327) with a 26" tire, and the deep first of the 700 makes a very quick street car that cruises on the highway (which I do alot of) very nicely.
The gear (327) with a 26" tire, and the deep first of the 700 makes a very quick street car that cruises on the highway (which I do alot of) very nicely.
With your combination, and a peak of 5000 rpm with your cam, we're looking at 118mph in your 1:1 gear. Le'ts pretend for a second that the car makes 400hp, and not the 330-360 or so I think it actually makes. That would put you around 105 - 106mph in the 1/4. This translates to a 3.73 with a 26" tire being perfect for your cam profile.
As for the converter, looking at the powerband of the cam, I'd have gone with something more like a 2000 stall unless it's a high end (PATC for example) converter which it's stall speed (2400) is rated at 600+ hp, which would actually make it grab on your combo closer to where I want it.
-- Joe
05-03-2013, 07:44 AM
#52
Re: killed a coyote
And here is a different, more intelligent post with an opinion that isn't delivered from the perspective of an arrogant know it all. And i appreciate it. Yes, its def understalled, loose, no, but should have a 3000 minimum which would also allow for a step or even 2 up on cam size, but this would also dictate a gear change as well, I have driven 323 geared cars with a decent converter and to me it always feels like your "on the converter" until its actually locked. Which I didn't want. And yes, I have been though, and used many different carbs and personally have had great success with a good old 750dp. So instead of changing everything, gear, converter, cam, I chose a decent head, a simple performer rpm, and a 750, then left everything else alone. The other side of this is I will be putting together a Turbo build with these parts in the fall, and wanted to stay with my "small" cam for a Turbo combo, the same as I want to keep the 327 gears with a Turbo. So I didn't think it was smart to have to redo things in the fall for a few more HP this summer. Hope all that made sense lol.
My buddy had a vortec 350 with stock lt1 cam. Talking 95-96 z28 lt1. Ran a performer rpm intake and 750 dp in a 83 shortbed pickup. Ran faster with the big 750 carb. I wouldnt have guessed but ask around you will find some engine builders having positive results using big carbs on engines that wouldnt normally require them. Somethings work sometimes lol
You are right about converter and gear. I have driven 3200 with 2.73's, 5500 with 2.73's, 4000 with 3.42's with 28" tire. You do feel "being on the converter". Lol.
With your turbo goals in mind you are doing well in keeping the smaller converter and gear. Will need compression change for boost but that cam can work ok. Prefer alitttle wider lsa but can work. I have seen tight lsa cams flat work on turbos
05-03-2013, 08:11 AM
#53
TGO Supporter/Moderator
iTrader: (12)
Join Date: Jul 1999
Location: SALEM, NH
Posts: 11,743
Likes: 0
Received 89 Likes
on
75 Posts
Car: '88 Formula, '94 Corvette, '95 Bird
Engine: LC9, 355" LT1, LT1
Transmission: T5, Zf6, 4L60E
Axle/Gears: 3.42, Dana44 3.45, 3.23
Re: killed a coyote
Stock L98's run better with 2800 stalls than 2000 even with the small cam and 4500 rpm peak. Bolt on ls1 requires 3800-4000 stall to really show et's. thats with stock cam. Runner and head design makes peak torque at 4000+. L98 will peak in that 2800-3200 window. Use torque to get moving.
My buddy had a vortec 350 with stock lt1 cam. Talking 95-96 z28 lt1. Ran a performer rpm intake and 750 dp in a 83 shortbed pickup. Ran faster with the big 750 carb. I wouldnt have guessed but ask around you will find some engine builders having positive results using big carbs on engines that wouldnt normally require them. Somethings work sometimes lol
I briefly (2 years) ran a 700 in the C4 vette with a 3000 stall converter and a cc306 cam. OD surged so much I had to use third on the highway up to 70mph. On another car I did with the same basic engine (355) and cc306 cam I went with a 2200 stall and it was a much better combo.
-- Joe
05-03-2013, 08:28 AM
#54
Re: killed a coyote
I have a custom edge racing built for 3200 on a bolt on ls1. It stalls as advertised. Ran 2 yrs with 2.73 gears and car flat hauled the mail. Been 1.70 60 ft with no real drag suspension and 17" drag radials. Now have 3.73, doesnt seem to drive much different. Only went 1.66 60 ft. Not much better.
My first turbo car i had a ptc converter made for an estimated 750-800 hp/tq motor. Requested 4000 stall to allow footbrake to stall higher to build boost. converter came out flashing near 5300-5500. I had 3.42's for couple passes and broke the rear and put 2.73's. car went 9.73. Drove great but thats what a turbo converter does. Doesnt stall full til boost is in. Driving around off boost it didnt feel much different than 3000.
Had ptc restall it down to 4000. Drove better but no longer could spool as fast. Car slowed but also changed turbo size so thats probably why. New 2012 combo pushed rpm band way up, and old 4000 stall acted 3500. Spool was delayed 500-700 more rpm so car was a turd all around. Switched to 3.42's and things got better. Still not optimal. Going back to old settings on converter to hopefully see 4500-4800 stall. Turbo cars love stall to build boost.
Usually higher torque will stall the converter higher. A converter set for my ls1 may be 3200, but a nitrous shot will open it up higher as it wasnt designed for it. Blowing thru a converter often happens when you exceed the rating it was designed for
And i am not sure why highway cruise with 2200 stall would be any different than 3000 with the 306 cam. Od should be locked up so doesnt matter what stall, it isnt slipping. Bigger cams are suppose to have reversion issues and thus poor low rpm driveability thus reason to go higher on stall but that isnt an issue in od.
My 383 i had forced lockup at 25mph to keep my rpms down and lug motor up hills in 3-4 gear. Dont want 3600 stall spinning up while hill climbing. Good tune allowed the big cam to pull at 1200-1400 rpm
My first turbo car i had a ptc converter made for an estimated 750-800 hp/tq motor. Requested 4000 stall to allow footbrake to stall higher to build boost. converter came out flashing near 5300-5500. I had 3.42's for couple passes and broke the rear and put 2.73's. car went 9.73. Drove great but thats what a turbo converter does. Doesnt stall full til boost is in. Driving around off boost it didnt feel much different than 3000.
Had ptc restall it down to 4000. Drove better but no longer could spool as fast. Car slowed but also changed turbo size so thats probably why. New 2012 combo pushed rpm band way up, and old 4000 stall acted 3500. Spool was delayed 500-700 more rpm so car was a turd all around. Switched to 3.42's and things got better. Still not optimal. Going back to old settings on converter to hopefully see 4500-4800 stall. Turbo cars love stall to build boost.
Usually higher torque will stall the converter higher. A converter set for my ls1 may be 3200, but a nitrous shot will open it up higher as it wasnt designed for it. Blowing thru a converter often happens when you exceed the rating it was designed for
And i am not sure why highway cruise with 2200 stall would be any different than 3000 with the 306 cam. Od should be locked up so doesnt matter what stall, it isnt slipping. Bigger cams are suppose to have reversion issues and thus poor low rpm driveability thus reason to go higher on stall but that isnt an issue in od.
My 383 i had forced lockup at 25mph to keep my rpms down and lug motor up hills in 3-4 gear. Dont want 3600 stall spinning up while hill climbing. Good tune allowed the big cam to pull at 1200-1400 rpm
Last edited by Orr89RocZ; 05-03-2013 at 08:33 AM.
05-03-2013, 10:59 AM
#55
Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Feb 2013
Posts: 205
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Re: killed a coyote
What is the DCR ?
That cam is recommended for around a 9.25:1 static compression ratio because it has very little overlap. On 10.3:1 you wan't way more cam for a number of reasons.
What's your total ignition advance?
No, I like AFR because they are cheap and flow well and have great velocity numbers. I understand fluid dynamics, and I've had conversations with the guys at Pro filer.
Ugg.
I calculated your carb requirements with your cam specs, compression ratio, the airflow dynamics I know about your intake manifold, and your heads I come up with between 596 to 616 cfm depending on where your actual cam is timed and your actual volumetric efficiency.
Building a winning combination is more than just picking parts out of the summit catalog. A new member like yourself would probably benefit from losing the attitude and reading. I've got over a decade of technical contributions and real-world test results posted on the forums.
So you've run the numbers and calculated your shift at peak HP, and made sure the bottom of each gear is in the sweet spot in the powerband ?
With your combination, and a peak of 5000 rpm with your cam, we're looking at 118mph in your 1:1 gear. Le'ts pretend for a second that the car makes 400hp, and not the 330-360 or so I think it actually makes. That would put you around 105 - 106mph in the 1/4. This translates to a 3.73 with a 26" tire being perfect for your cam profile.
As for the converter, looking at the powerband of the cam, I'd have gone with something more like a 2000 stall unless it's a high end (PATC for example) converter which it's stall speed (2400) is rated at 600+ hp, which would actually make it grab on your combo closer to where I want it.
That is perfectly fine. I'm not getting paid to educate you. But I will continue to point out technical flaws because that is the whole point of the forums, to debate tech.
Nah, I have stock formula rims and 3 year old tires, but I don't doubt that I have more money in the current build I started last summer. I think I'm at like 15k, whereas my limit is usually around 20k per project with the exception of my vette which I went a little over board on a few years ago.
You have a great day yourself!
-- Joe
That cam is recommended for around a 9.25:1 static compression ratio because it has very little overlap. On 10.3:1 you wan't way more cam for a number of reasons.
What's your total ignition advance?
No, I like AFR because they are cheap and flow well and have great velocity numbers. I understand fluid dynamics, and I've had conversations with the guys at Pro filer.
Ugg.
I calculated your carb requirements with your cam specs, compression ratio, the airflow dynamics I know about your intake manifold, and your heads I come up with between 596 to 616 cfm depending on where your actual cam is timed and your actual volumetric efficiency.
Building a winning combination is more than just picking parts out of the summit catalog. A new member like yourself would probably benefit from losing the attitude and reading. I've got over a decade of technical contributions and real-world test results posted on the forums.
So you've run the numbers and calculated your shift at peak HP, and made sure the bottom of each gear is in the sweet spot in the powerband ?
With your combination, and a peak of 5000 rpm with your cam, we're looking at 118mph in your 1:1 gear. Le'ts pretend for a second that the car makes 400hp, and not the 330-360 or so I think it actually makes. That would put you around 105 - 106mph in the 1/4. This translates to a 3.73 with a 26" tire being perfect for your cam profile.
As for the converter, looking at the powerband of the cam, I'd have gone with something more like a 2000 stall unless it's a high end (PATC for example) converter which it's stall speed (2400) is rated at 600+ hp, which would actually make it grab on your combo closer to where I want it.
That is perfectly fine. I'm not getting paid to educate you. But I will continue to point out technical flaws because that is the whole point of the forums, to debate tech.
Nah, I have stock formula rims and 3 year old tires, but I don't doubt that I have more money in the current build I started last summer. I think I'm at like 15k, whereas my limit is usually around 20k per project with the exception of my vette which I went a little over board on a few years ago.
You have a great day yourself!
-- Joe
DCR is 8.51:1
SCR is 10.3:1
Quench is 0.041
Initial is 22*
Total is 34*
Runs on 92 with no pre ignition issues.
Converter currently stalls around 2300 but have yet to try with a sticky DR yet.
Your Carb theory is just that, based on a calculator online.
I have tried, on several builds to follow the calculations and use the "ideal" Carb size, only to find that it mph's higher when switching to a 750dp.
While I understand the opinion that I don't run enough gear, converter, cam to justify a DP its again, theory.
I run enough initial, with manifold sourced VC advance, to keep my idle clean, the throttle response is crisp, there are no stumbles, bogs or anything else associated with "overcarbed" so I'm happy with my choice.
I agree, I could have, and would have gone with more gear, more converter, and more cam. But it seemed counter productive towards my plans to add boost later this year.
I appreciate any advice given, and will happily take any and all into consideration. It was the delivery that I had issue with, at no point was this a "whatever I had laying around" build, it was planned and executed purposly knowing there would be some comprimises based on future plans. Sub 7000 post count doesn't make me an amateur or uniformed. It just means I haven't owned an f-body long or I read, and educate myself, before executing or before voicing my opinions.
Dave
05-04-2013, 04:41 PM
#56
Re: killed a coyote
Originally Posted by bygddy
But it seemed counter productive towards my plans to add boost later this year...
- Rob
06-06-2013, 07:51 AM
#61
Member
Join Date: Aug 2012
Location: Bremen KY
Posts: 195
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Car: 1985 firebird
Engine: 360"sbc NA pump gas
Transmission: Th350 manual valve body
Axle/Gears: Moser 12 bolt 4.11:1
Re: killed a coyote
Why is it so hard to believe? He isn't wasting his time with a N/A EFI like some of you are he'll bent on keeping. I've saw cars like his at the track run high 11's low 12's on motor. And maybe the coyote was an auto, just cause you haters can't get your cars moving dont mean he hasn't figured it out!
Props to the op!
Props to the op!
06-06-2013, 08:48 AM
#62
TGO Supporter/Moderator
iTrader: (12)
Join Date: Jul 1999
Location: SALEM, NH
Posts: 11,743
Likes: 0
Received 89 Likes
on
75 Posts
Car: '88 Formula, '94 Corvette, '95 Bird
Engine: LC9, 355" LT1, LT1
Transmission: T5, Zf6, 4L60E
Axle/Gears: 3.42, Dana44 3.45, 3.23
Re: killed a coyote
Why is it so hard to believe? He isn't wasting his time with a N/A EFI like some of you are he'll bent on keeping. I've saw cars like his at the track run high 11's low 12's on motor. And maybe the coyote was an auto, just cause you haters can't get your cars moving dont mean he hasn't figured it out!
Props to the op!
Props to the op!
-- Joe
06-06-2013, 09:12 AM
#63
Member
Join Date: Aug 2012
Location: Bremen KY
Posts: 195
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Car: 1985 firebird
Engine: 360"sbc NA pump gas
Transmission: Th350 manual valve body
Axle/Gears: Moser 12 bolt 4.11:1
Re: killed a coyote
Nothin as long as it has help, just like you avatar and sig,your procharged forced induction or help from N20, I guarantee your car would be faster NA with a properly tuned carb vs a properly tuned EFI especially third gen era EFI,(and a lot less complicated)Yes I see your running a mega squirt 3. what do the new bone stock 5.0's run in the 1/4? 13's high 12's being generous.
My 360" makes around 550 at the flywheel NA
My 360" makes around 550 at the flywheel NA
06-06-2013, 12:00 PM
#64
TGO Supporter/Moderator
iTrader: (12)
Join Date: Jul 1999
Location: SALEM, NH
Posts: 11,743
Likes: 0
Received 89 Likes
on
75 Posts
Car: '88 Formula, '94 Corvette, '95 Bird
Engine: LC9, 355" LT1, LT1
Transmission: T5, Zf6, 4L60E
Axle/Gears: 3.42, Dana44 3.45, 3.23
Re: killed a coyote
Nothin as long as it has help, just like you avatar and sig,your procharged forced induction or help from N20, I guarantee your car would be faster NA with a properly tuned carb vs a properly tuned EFI especially third gen era EFI,(and a lot less complicated)Yes I see your running a mega squirt 3. what do the new bone stock 5.0's run in the 1/4? 13's high 12's being generous.
My 360" makes around 550 at the flywheel NA
My 360" makes around 550 at the flywheel NA
But that one scenario where a carb could be better doesn't make up for all of the things you cannot do with a carb that you can do with EFI. Temperature compensation, triggers, nitrous control, fan control, staging, launch control, dynamic fuel curves.
You can't guarantee NA that my engine would make more power with a carb than with EFI any more than I can guarantee that the EFI will make more power than a carb.
Anyway, we're seeing most new 5.0s running around 110mph with an ET anywhere between a high 12 and low 13. That's fairly respectable for 5 liters. The supercharged version is 660 horsepower. That is insane for a 5.0 liter engine. It's because of technology. Direct injection.
-- Joe
06-06-2013, 12:12 PM
#65
Member
Join Date: Aug 2012
Location: Bremen KY
Posts: 195
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Car: 1985 firebird
Engine: 360"sbc NA pump gas
Transmission: Th350 manual valve body
Axle/Gears: Moser 12 bolt 4.11:1
Re: killed a coyote
Not to turn this into a pissing match, but your 600 horsepower in your sig I assume is at the wheels, which is a lot more than my car makes granted. But I know several 421" with carbs that make 800 NA @ the flywheel running 8's. Again probly not as "streetable" as yours.
But also they don't require all the redundancies and relays and support systems(amp draw) that EFI must have.
But also they don't require all the redundancies and relays and support systems(amp draw) that EFI must have.
Last edited by Ingram78; 06-06-2013 at 12:15 PM.
06-06-2013, 12:42 PM
#66
TGO Supporter/Moderator
iTrader: (12)
Join Date: Jul 1999
Location: SALEM, NH
Posts: 11,743
Likes: 0
Received 89 Likes
on
75 Posts
Car: '88 Formula, '94 Corvette, '95 Bird
Engine: LC9, 355" LT1, LT1
Transmission: T5, Zf6, 4L60E
Axle/Gears: 3.42, Dana44 3.45, 3.23
Re: killed a coyote
Not to turn this into a pissing match, but your 600 horsepower in your sig I assume is at the wheels, which is a lot more than my car makes granted. But I know several 421" with carbs that make 800 NA @ the flywheel running 8's. Again probly not as "streetable" as yours.
But also they don't require all the redundancies and relays and support systems(amp draw) that EFI must have.
But also they don't require all the redundancies and relays and support systems(amp draw) that EFI must have.
My car is 9:1 compression and a 276hr cam on 114 degrees. Very smooth.
I could have made a 600hp high compression nasty NA engine with a big cam, etc, but I don't want to own something that sounds like crap, overheats, and is not reliable. (not saying they can't be reliable, but most in that scenario wouldn't be considered anything close to daily driver reliable).
Microsquirt amp draw is 40 milliamps. 16 ohm injectors draw .75 amps each, so 8 injectors = 6 amps. So the total thing is under 7 amps.
-- Joe
06-06-2013, 04:04 PM
#67
Re: killed a coyote
Originally Posted by Ingram78
Why is it so hard to believe? He isn't wasting his time with a N/A EFI like some of you are he'll bent on keeping...
06-06-2013, 04:41 PM
#68
Member
Join Date: Aug 2012
Location: Bremen KY
Posts: 195
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Car: 1985 firebird
Engine: 360"sbc NA pump gas
Transmission: Th350 manual valve body
Axle/Gears: Moser 12 bolt 4.11:1
Re: killed a coyote
Well lets take a stock ls1 making 300hp out of a 4th gen, do they not pick up a lot of power with a carb and intake? Seen it many times before.
06-06-2013, 06:51 PM
#69
Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Feb 2013
Posts: 205
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Re: killed a coyote
Not pissing match. Technical debate.
My car is 9:1 compression and a 276hr cam on 114 degrees. Very smooth.
I could have made a 600hp high compression nasty NA engine with a big cam, etc, but I don't want to own something that sounds like crap, overheats, and is not reliable. (not saying they can't be reliable, but most in that scenario wouldn't be considered anything close to daily driver reliable).
Microsquirt amp draw is 40 milliamps. 16 ohm injectors draw .75 amps each, so 8 injectors = 6 amps. So the total thing is under 7 amps.
-- Joe
My car is 9:1 compression and a 276hr cam on 114 degrees. Very smooth.
I could have made a 600hp high compression nasty NA engine with a big cam, etc, but I don't want to own something that sounds like crap, overheats, and is not reliable. (not saying they can't be reliable, but most in that scenario wouldn't be considered anything close to daily driver reliable).
Microsquirt amp draw is 40 milliamps. 16 ohm injectors draw .75 amps each, so 8 injectors = 6 amps. So the total thing is under 7 amps.
-- Joe
Nothing sounds sexier then a giant solid lifter high compression small block....period.
06-06-2013, 07:48 PM
#70
Member
Join Date: Aug 2012
Location: Bremen KY
Posts: 195
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Car: 1985 firebird
Engine: 360"sbc NA pump gas
Transmission: Th350 manual valve body
Axle/Gears: Moser 12 bolt 4.11:1
Re: killed a coyote
Thanks, but I do believe that's what he means.
If this doesn't sound good you drive a Prius
If this doesn't sound good you drive a Prius
06-06-2013, 08:30 PM
#72
TGO Supporter/Moderator
iTrader: (12)
Join Date: Jul 1999
Location: SALEM, NH
Posts: 11,743
Likes: 0
Received 89 Likes
on
75 Posts
Car: '88 Formula, '94 Corvette, '95 Bird
Engine: LC9, 355" LT1, LT1
Transmission: T5, Zf6, 4L60E
Axle/Gears: 3.42, Dana44 3.45, 3.23
Re: killed a coyote
The biggest problem with EFI is people. I remember in the 80s, all the guys used to call it "Fuel infection" Suddenly a hot rodder couldn't change jets and turn a screw back and forth for hours until the car ran better. Guys could comprehend how this stuff works. I don't even want to own anything with a carb anymore. The only thing I have left from the stone age is my riding mower.
-- Joe
06-06-2013, 08:33 PM
#73
TGO Supporter/Moderator
iTrader: (12)
Join Date: Jul 1999
Location: SALEM, NH
Posts: 11,743
Likes: 0
Received 89 Likes
on
75 Posts
Car: '88 Formula, '94 Corvette, '95 Bird
Engine: LC9, 355" LT1, LT1
Transmission: T5, Zf6, 4L60E
Axle/Gears: 3.42, Dana44 3.45, 3.23
Re: killed a coyote
Ever drive a brand new vette? Technology has come a long way.
-- Joe
06-06-2013, 08:37 PM
#74
Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Feb 2013
Posts: 205
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Re: killed a coyote
I know I have, hell I drive 350-400whp evo's regularly....and they are amazing.....but still not in the same realm as a big cube big cam big Carb motor.
06-06-2013, 09:17 PM
#75
Member
Join Date: Aug 2012
Location: Bremen KY
Posts: 195
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Car: 1985 firebird
Engine: 360"sbc NA pump gas
Transmission: Th350 manual valve body
Axle/Gears: Moser 12 bolt 4.11:1
Re: killed a coyote
I know EFI is the only way to go with forced induction and it has its place. My carbed solid roller(108 deg lobe sep)high compression sb will idle till it runs outta gas at 160 degrees ,cause I can tune it along with my timing,jets and air bleeds. Just cause its simple doesn't mean its a poor design. Plus I don't have to decide on which of 4 oxygen sensors I need to replace to get it out of "Limp Home" mode. Nor do I need to buy a laptop (and program)to tune it. I have my crew cab to drive around quietly.
And if it dies at least I can tell when it does instead of having to look at the dash for a check engine light!
And if it dies at least I can tell when it does instead of having to look at the dash for a check engine light!
06-07-2013, 05:46 AM
#76
TGO Supporter/Moderator
iTrader: (12)
Join Date: Jul 1999
Location: SALEM, NH
Posts: 11,743
Likes: 0
Received 89 Likes
on
75 Posts
Car: '88 Formula, '94 Corvette, '95 Bird
Engine: LC9, 355" LT1, LT1
Transmission: T5, Zf6, 4L60E
Axle/Gears: 3.42, Dana44 3.45, 3.23
Re: killed a coyote
I know EFI is the only way to go with forced induction and it has its place. My carbed solid roller(108 deg lobe sep)high compression sb will idle till it runs outta gas at 160 degrees ,cause I can tune it along with my timing,jets and air bleeds. Just cause its simple doesn't mean its a poor design. Plus I don't have to decide on which of 4 oxygen sensors I need to replace to get it out of "Limp Home" mode. Nor do I need to buy a laptop (and program)to tune it. I have my crew cab to drive around quietly.
And if it dies at least I can tell when it does instead of having to look at the dash for a check engine light!
And if it dies at least I can tell when it does instead of having to look at the dash for a check engine light!
And I like new stuff. When I go out with my friends on our bikes, and we've got that one dude with a older carb Harley, I hate waiting 5 minutes for the bike to warm up before we can take off just because it's cold out. When I'm plowing in the winter I want to hit the remote start, and go outside to a warm cab even if it's 5 degrees out.
I lied earlier. My boat is carb (1991). I had totally forgot about that, since it's been sitting behind the barn for the past 3 years. I should pick up some bike throttle bodies and megasquirt it
I like that white btw. Any more pictures of that car?
-- Joe
06-07-2013, 09:31 AM
#77
Re: killed a coyote
Originally Posted by Ingram78
I know EFI is the only way to go with forced induction and it has its place. My carbed solid roller(108 deg lobe sep)high compression sb will idle till it runs outta gas at 160 degrees ,cause I can tune it along with my timing,jets and air bleeds. Just cause its simple doesn't mean its a poor design. Plus I don't have to decide on which of 4 oxygen sensors I need to replace to get it out of "Limp Home" mode. Nor do I need to buy a laptop (and program)to tune it. I have my crew cab to drive around quietly.
And if it dies at least I can tell when it does instead of having to look at the dash for a check engine light!
And if it dies at least I can tell when it does instead of having to look at the dash for a check engine light!
06-07-2013, 09:42 AM
#78
TGO Supporter/Moderator
iTrader: (12)
Join Date: Jul 1999
Location: SALEM, NH
Posts: 11,743
Likes: 0
Received 89 Likes
on
75 Posts
Car: '88 Formula, '94 Corvette, '95 Bird
Engine: LC9, 355" LT1, LT1
Transmission: T5, Zf6, 4L60E
Axle/Gears: 3.42, Dana44 3.45, 3.23
Re: killed a coyote
I am not trying to sell you on fuel injection, because both are good, and when it gets right down to it, both do the exact same thing. If you ever took the time to tune fuel injection though, you would never go back to carbs, unless solely for strip use, meaning towed in, then towed out. Joe is running Megasquirt, and that system is awesome. Just imagine Ingram if you swapped over to Megasquirt and were able to watch everything your engine is doing on the Shadow Logger display. Limp home mode? Codes? Those are a thing of the past, in fact, most eliminate limp home mode nowadays. Today's tuning goes far beyond that now. What they are in the process of doing now is actually be able to tune on the fly by touch screen, no more PC. Joe already understands what this means, it is unreal...
I wish google had a native JRE on chromium, I'd like to run tunerstudio on a chromebook without having to install a custom chromium JRE engine.
-- Joe
06-07-2013, 11:27 AM
#80
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: killed a coyote
One could argue thermal dynamics play a role in slightly better atomization of a carb vs fuel injection, which will vary from intake to intake and also depend if the injector is pointed at the floor, valve or midstream.
But that one scenario where a carb could be better doesn't make up for all of the things you cannot do with a carb that you can do with EFI. Temperature compensation, triggers, nitrous control, fan control, staging, launch control, dynamic fuel curves.
You can't guarantee NA that my engine would make more power with a carb than with EFI any more than I can guarantee that the EFI will make more power than a carb.
Anyway, we're seeing most new 5.0s running around 110mph with an ET anywhere between a high 12 and low 13. That's fairly respectable for 5 liters. The supercharged version is 660 horsepower. That is insane for a 5.0 liter engine. It's because of technology. Direct injection.
-- Joe
But that one scenario where a carb could be better doesn't make up for all of the things you cannot do with a carb that you can do with EFI. Temperature compensation, triggers, nitrous control, fan control, staging, launch control, dynamic fuel curves.
You can't guarantee NA that my engine would make more power with a carb than with EFI any more than I can guarantee that the EFI will make more power than a carb.
Anyway, we're seeing most new 5.0s running around 110mph with an ET anywhere between a high 12 and low 13. That's fairly respectable for 5 liters. The supercharged version is 660 horsepower. That is insane for a 5.0 liter engine. It's because of technology. Direct injection.
-- Joe
06-07-2013, 01:15 PM
#81
Member
Join Date: Sep 2012
Location: Long Island NY
Posts: 220
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Car: 1989 Trans Am WS6
Engine: SBC+TPI+BOOST
Transmission: 700R4
Axle/Gears: Eaton 373
Re: killed a coyote
^ While I also prefer EFI. That statement you just made shows you are a very Ignorant person. Id like to do a 6.0+ Liter LSX with a carb in the near future. and im no way "White Trash"
06-07-2013, 03:47 PM
#82
Senior Member
iTrader: (1)
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: Houston TX
Posts: 959
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Car: 02 SS
Engine: 408 TT (1108rw-93/m1)6700rpm
Transmission: TH400(slipping)
Axle/Gears: 12bolt/3.42(whines😠)
Re: killed a coyote
each fueling method has its own place.
ignorance is bliss..
06-07-2013, 04:35 PM
#83
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: killed a coyote
Nah, not ignorant at all. It was a hyperbole, I just consider carbs moving backwards in time and efficiency. Absolutely, carbs have a place in the automotive world. Pro mod cars are case in point. However, too often on this site it's "I'm ripping my TPI off and switching to carb, it's just easier to tune." on their stock or mildly modified engine. It's ridiculous. On a street car, anything a carb can do an EFI can do better.
06-07-2013, 05:54 PM
#84
Member
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Houston
Posts: 412
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Car: 1986 IROC-Z28 & 1987 GTA
Engine: 305 TPI & 350 TPI
Transmission: 700R4
Re: killed a coyote
I love these passionate debates! I always learn something new when reading them. But I don't think you beat that mustang!
lol j/k good kill.
The only place I can keep up with a mustang is at the stoplight! Damn'd 305 & with the peanut cam to top it off! Got a 5.3l lm7 sitting in the garage with an ls6 intake... Now I just need heads,cam fuelrails,k member notched, harness.....& the list goes on!
lol j/k good kill.
The only place I can keep up with a mustang is at the stoplight! Damn'd 305 & with the peanut cam to top it off! Got a 5.3l lm7 sitting in the garage with an ls6 intake... Now I just need heads,cam fuelrails,k member notched, harness.....& the list goes on!
06-08-2013, 02:14 AM
#85
Supreme Member
iTrader: (2)
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Hou. TX
Posts: 5,538
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Car: 86 TA, 91 B4C
Engine: 5.3, 4.8
Transmission: 4L80 4000, T56
Axle/Gears: 4.30 M12, 23.42 10 bolt
Re: killed a coyote
I know its not in one of my third gens, but this is with the same engine i had in my 89 RS before i wrecked it against a 2014 GT in my 80 coupe i did the swap in:
That was a 7.2 pass at 98 MPH, the 89 RS with a 6 speed went 7.1-7.0 at 97 MPH with a manual trans and would have killed the GT even worse.
That was a 7.2 pass at 98 MPH, the 89 RS with a 6 speed went 7.1-7.0 at 97 MPH with a manual trans and would have killed the GT even worse.
06-08-2013, 02:20 AM
#86
Supreme Member
iTrader: (2)
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Hou. TX
Posts: 5,538
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Car: 86 TA, 91 B4C
Engine: 5.3, 4.8
Transmission: 4L80 4000, T56
Axle/Gears: 4.30 M12, 23.42 10 bolt
Re: killed a coyote
And its carbed BTW for you haters. LOL
Carb swapping a LS is cost effective for us poor guys that dont care to mess with anything and just want to go fast. You northern guys have legit reasons, but us Texas folk dont have days so cold that you cannot get in and go WITHOUT a choke. Our carbed setups dont flip out with cam changes and dont need tuning every time we turn around. If you are carbed and you do, you have other issues. Nothing wrong with EFI what so ever, but i dont have to spend much on a damn good intake, no injectors to be bought, just minor tools and make it thump.
Carb swapping a LS is cost effective for us poor guys that dont care to mess with anything and just want to go fast. You northern guys have legit reasons, but us Texas folk dont have days so cold that you cannot get in and go WITHOUT a choke. Our carbed setups dont flip out with cam changes and dont need tuning every time we turn around. If you are carbed and you do, you have other issues. Nothing wrong with EFI what so ever, but i dont have to spend much on a damn good intake, no injectors to be bought, just minor tools and make it thump.
06-08-2013, 10:06 AM
#87
Member
Join Date: Aug 2012
Location: Bremen KY
Posts: 195
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Car: 1985 firebird
Engine: 360"sbc NA pump gas
Transmission: Th350 manual valve body
Axle/Gears: Moser 12 bolt 4.11:1
Re: killed a coyote
I like that white btw. Any more pictures of that car?
-- Joe[/QUOTE]
-- Joe[/QUOTE]
06-09-2013, 10:16 AM
#89
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: Austin, TX
Posts: 731
Likes: 0
Received 1 Like
on
1 Post
Car: 1989 G92 IROC-Z
Engine: 5 Liter 305
Transmission: T5
Axle/Gears: 3.45
Re: killed a coyote
I beat a stock Coyote once in my old 1500 Silverado with a V6. He thought he could make it across the road but my truck was just too fast.
Im sure there are more in Texas who can claim this. Anyway, nice kill. I didn't feel so good about mine.
Im sure there are more in Texas who can claim this. Anyway, nice kill. I didn't feel so good about mine.
06-09-2013, 02:42 PM
#90
Senior Member
iTrader: (1)
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: Houston TX
Posts: 959
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Car: 02 SS
Engine: 408 TT (1108rw-93/m1)6700rpm
Transmission: TH400(slipping)
Axle/Gears: 12bolt/3.42(whines😠)
Re: killed a coyote
who cares.there not anything special
dont really see what all the doubt is that the op beat the coyote.
i put a bus on a sc cobra the other day on the way home from work.
my car is not stock.
op car is not stock. i dont gather where all the disbelief of the win comes from
props on the win. a w is a w
Last edited by NemeSS-TyranT; 06-09-2013 at 02:46 PM.
06-09-2013, 03:15 PM
#91
Member
Join Date: Sep 2012
Location: Long Island NY
Posts: 220
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Car: 1989 Trans Am WS6
Engine: SBC+TPI+BOOST
Transmission: 700R4
Axle/Gears: Eaton 373
Re: killed a coyote
^ Yes, I agree.
The doubt on here simply comes from the majority of sheep......,, I mean people on here actually thinking a Gen1 SBC isnt "fast" anymore. And that IMO is ridiculous.
Just an FYI people, any SBC regardless of generation can get it done when properly built. Same with a SBF. You can actually build a 305, 350, 434 or LSX or even an LT1 to be faster than something. But of course there will always be someone else thats faster. Just food for thought for the children on here that make the assumption that, If its not an LS motor, its not fast. Thats ignorant and stupid.
The doubt on here simply comes from the majority of sheep......,, I mean people on here actually thinking a Gen1 SBC isnt "fast" anymore. And that IMO is ridiculous.
Just an FYI people, any SBC regardless of generation can get it done when properly built. Same with a SBF. You can actually build a 305, 350, 434 or LSX or even an LT1 to be faster than something. But of course there will always be someone else thats faster. Just food for thought for the children on here that make the assumption that, If its not an LS motor, its not fast. Thats ignorant and stupid.
06-09-2013, 03:29 PM
#92
Supreme Member
iTrader: (2)
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Hou. TX
Posts: 5,538
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Car: 86 TA, 91 B4C
Engine: 5.3, 4.8
Transmission: 4L80 4000, T56
Axle/Gears: 4.30 M12, 23.42 10 bolt
Re: killed a coyote
I used to hurt plenty of feelings when i was using the ol 383 SBC stroker. They are capable as any, just costs money to make it happen.
06-09-2013, 04:37 PM
#93
TGO Supporter/Moderator
iTrader: (12)
Join Date: Jul 1999
Location: SALEM, NH
Posts: 11,743
Likes: 0
Received 89 Likes
on
75 Posts
Car: '88 Formula, '94 Corvette, '95 Bird
Engine: LC9, 355" LT1, LT1
Transmission: T5, Zf6, 4L60E
Axle/Gears: 3.42, Dana44 3.45, 3.23
Re: killed a coyote
The doubt is because the majority of thirdgens are slow. Is it possible? Sure, but without timeslips or dyno graphs to back up the claim that the guy in the other car was actually even racing, than it's just an internet post.
If we're going to pretend however that a Gen1 SBC is in the same league as the LSx stuff, than that's just simply ignorance.
-- Joe
06-09-2013, 06:27 PM
#94
Member
Join Date: Sep 2012
Location: Long Island NY
Posts: 220
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Car: 1989 Trans Am WS6
Engine: SBC+TPI+BOOST
Transmission: 700R4
Axle/Gears: Eaton 373
Re: killed a coyote
Are you referring to anything I said as "pretending"?
I simply made the point that a Gen1 could be built to be as fast or faster than a new 5liter mustang or LS car.
For the record I am a big fan of the LSX motor. I'm planning a build with a 6.0 with aftermarket AFR heads, AFR composite intake and a large carb. But I also won't claim that because its an LS that it will beat any gen1 SBC. Again, that's the ignorance I'm referring to here.
I simply made the point that a Gen1 could be built to be as fast or faster than a new 5liter mustang or LS car.
For the record I am a big fan of the LSX motor. I'm planning a build with a 6.0 with aftermarket AFR heads, AFR composite intake and a large carb. But I also won't claim that because its an LS that it will beat any gen1 SBC. Again, that's the ignorance I'm referring to here.
06-09-2013, 07:48 PM
#95
TGO Supporter/Moderator
iTrader: (12)
Join Date: Jul 1999
Location: SALEM, NH
Posts: 11,743
Likes: 0
Received 89 Likes
on
75 Posts
Car: '88 Formula, '94 Corvette, '95 Bird
Engine: LC9, 355" LT1, LT1
Transmission: T5, Zf6, 4L60E
Axle/Gears: 3.42, Dana44 3.45, 3.23
Re: killed a coyote
For the record I am a big fan of the LSX motor. I'm planning a build with a 6.0 with aftermarket AFR heads, AFR composite intake and a large carb. But I also won't claim that because its an LS that it will beat any gen1 SBC. Again, that's the ignorance I'm referring to here.
-- Joe
06-19-2013, 01:36 PM
#96
Senior Member
Re: killed a coyote
Lol....yes, the new coyote, the be all and end all....4000# and 420hp, Auto as well.
Against a 3400# 375-400hp car.....yes, because at 40yrs old and owning a variety of cars, both quick and slow, I must be lying.....cause your opinion matters so much to me and I absolutely must impress you or I fear I might die alone and friendless.....my bad.
Silly....
Against a 3400# 375-400hp car.....yes, because at 40yrs old and owning a variety of cars, both quick and slow, I must be lying.....cause your opinion matters so much to me and I absolutely must impress you or I fear I might die alone and friendless.....my bad.
Silly....
its simple math, traction power and weight.... i build alfa romeo cars the whegh 1800 pounds and put out 240 horse .. and it pulls about the same lap tie as a 2013 boss 302... not hard to figure out
06-19-2013, 10:20 PM
#97
Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Feb 2013
Posts: 205
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Re: killed a coyote
I know, people are funny sometimes.....I just picked up an S10, and at 3000# and a 460hp 383....I wonder how that would do against the coyote and if people would argue so much.
06-20-2013, 09:20 AM
#98
Member
Join Date: Aug 2012
Location: Bremen KY
Posts: 195
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Car: 1985 firebird
Engine: 360"sbc NA pump gas
Transmission: Th350 manual valve body
Axle/Gears: Moser 12 bolt 4.11:1
Re: killed a coyote
Yea I'm sure it's just a matter of time, I thought I was on Yellowbullet for a while all the "mustang worship"
I thought this was ThirdGen.org not MMFF online!
I thought this was ThirdGen.org not MMFF online!
06-20-2013, 06:06 PM
#99
Re: killed a coyote
I'm not agreeing with you on the Profiler. The cross sectional area is huge vs the flow, which I'm sure is great for 7,000 RPM circle track cars but not for a street strip car, and especially not for a low compression blown car that you don't want to be a stone off boost.
-- Joe
-- Joe
Get ready to cruicify me for my engine combo everyone, I ran Profiler 185s on a 383! Gasp! They are too small! How horrible!
I did some very minor cleanup and this is the results.
My mild ported Profiler 185s
lift 0.1 0.2 0.3 0.4 0.5 0.6
intake 80 139 202 251 272 272
exhaust 61 110 150 193 216 226
To be fair, how about some AFR 195 eliminators...
lift 0.1 0.2 0.3 0.4 0.5 0.6
intake 140 201 247 278 285
exhaust 115 165 197 218 220
So you're going to tell me that the Profilers have an oversized port and have low velocity!? Well thats simply not true...
For those interested, I'm also running an XFI268 cam with 10.75CR and ported super ram. (am I an idiot or what?!) Climbs hills at 55 with the cruise set through the T56 and running AC like a champ at 1400rpm. Pulls to 5500 like a champ. Dyno/strip results pending, but I've raped a C5 with an exhaust from a roll. I put so many cars on him so fast I can't even tell for sure if he stayed on the throttle or not, but his pipes were screaming when I went past...
06-20-2013, 07:13 PM
#100
Senior Member
iTrader: (1)
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: Houston TX
Posts: 959
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Car: 02 SS
Engine: 408 TT (1108rw-93/m1)6700rpm
Transmission: TH400(slipping)
Axle/Gears: 12bolt/3.42(whines😠)
Re: killed a coyote
those 185s look like theyre not that far behind.. although a bolt ons c5 is not all that quick.prolly hi to mid 12sec car.but not slow either.
that motor should move the camaro quicker than the s10
that motor should move the camaro quicker than the s10