This thread needs to be closed.

and street racing is not impressive, nor safe.

 

No its not safe. No high speed motion in a car is never safe. That's why all precautions should be met. My run was about midnight, no one around, no rain, straightaway open road, and we let off after one of us started to lose. We ran no faster than the average speeder on interstate. No 100mph for me. Too many things run through my mind. It sure does make you feel good to get a little thrill, even if you lose.

 

What ricers don't tell you about the serious quick imports is that by the time they're in the 10/11 sec range they actually get worse mpg than an equivalent et v8 and on top of that the drivability has gone to crap. Plus the mass majority look at you like you have three heads when you mention racing from a dig and make fun of their "reasons" for roll racing. I mean anyone that plays with their car roll races time to time for fun but they don't take it serious as its just playing lol

 

Power:weight ratio. That simple equation is the key to imports. If you are one of the guys that thinks the tuner cars can't be quick, especially around a track, you're delusional.

Meanwhile our cars were sold with a top HP of 245 with a 3000-3300lb curb weight. Not exactly a rocket from the factory.

I'm not a personal fan of them, but this whole "muscle vs import" thing seems like a way for insecure people to feel better about themselves by mocking something they don't care for or understand.

 

Sounds like they did it wrong. I have worked on plenty of imports that get 30mpg when cruising, drive like a near stock civic and pull 10s. After you spend enough time on both sides you will find plenty of people dont do it right with a V8 or a 4cly

 

I've actually seen very few imports get a true 30 mpg stock unless power miling. I don't hate on the import guys that actually do a decent job of modding......in fact a well modded q45 is actually how I met my best friend lol

 

As someone that builds and tunes fast cars (of all kinds, but mostly STI's and EVO's) and daily drives a Third Gen at the moment.... this thread is completely ridiculous.

I can build a reliable, and very fast car with just about any decent platform. I've built 800 WHP Corvettes and I build a 400 to 600 AWHP STI or EVO about once a month.

This "no replacement for displacement" BS.......

An engine is an air pump. So is a turbocharger or a supercharger. When you add these things you are effectively increasing the displacement. An engine that is 2.0 liters at atmospheric pressure is pretty much double that at 2 Bar forced induction.

Also - you want fast and reliable? Open you wallet. Last EVO I built was $15,000 for the engine, all accessories, installation, etc. They are expensive to play with. But yeah it puts down 400 AWHP and has all Cosworth internals. It could make a lot more it just wouldn't be very streetable and would likely tear up it's drivetrain.

One is not cheaper than the other. Cheap parts are available for both. And you won't go fast for long with them on either.

Fast, reliable, cheap. Pick two.

GD

 

Oh there's cases where you can be cheap reliable and relatively fast. Trick is to pick a semi dead platform that was popular at one time.....like my w body dd. Can find speed parts used super cheap.....got my headers for $20. Is only in 13 sec range but it was a build intended for carving corners. Counting cost of car and the brand new wheels and tires I'm a total of $4000 in. Also includes cost of replacement eng/trans and the upgraded sc and ic

 

Smaller displacement engines run poorly at high power outputs.

Moderate boost on a 6.8 liter v8 is a lot more streetable then a to of boost on a wild 2.5 liter.

Back in the late 90s early 2000s 500+ hp honda's were the big thing around here, especially with the latino folks. Making the engine push 500+ hp on boost wasn't an issue, it was suspension, drivetrain, etc longevity. It doesn't really matter what alloy your axles are made of if the diameter is too small for the load being applied.

I like imports too by the way, I've been thinking of buying a Ferrari lately.



-- Joe

 

That's sometimes the case, but not a rule. The Honda engines in a front wheel layout you are right about. But the S2000 rear wheel drive can be quite streetable.

The STI and EVO engine can both happily put out 500 HP with excellent reliability and streetability. It's all in how you set them up. We just built a 500 HP EVO that has a power band from 3000 RPM to 8000 RPM. Thats 5000 RPM of flat torque curve. It's running 26 psi of boost and it will last virtually forever - the 4G63 is a cast iron beast from the 70's. It drives fine on the street. It's no Cadillac but most of us don't want that anyway.

GD

 

I'd love to have a Subaru actually. Bout the only import I'd voluntarily drive. That or a gm 3800 swapped 240

 

How much vac do they make at idle, and what idle speed?

-- Joe

 

If you don't think 4 cylinder turbo engines can propel you at dangerous speeds and frightening acceleration then you just haven't been around a real import speed shop enough.

Go watch some documentarys about Group B rally in the early 80's. Only motorsport I know of that was disbanded because the cars were too fast. They determined that 500 HP (1.8 liters, twin charged) AWD, in a 1500 lb carbon fiber chassis was "not controllable by any human". Ford (yep domestic rice) crashed their RS200 into a wall of spectators in 1986 killing 3 and injuring 30. That Ford was a Cosworth inline 4 cylinder, turbocharged, making 450 HP from 1.8 liters.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ford_RS200

This happened while third gens were being built in the GM factories.

Fast forward 30 years - that technology is being put into production cars.

I love me some V8 too guys. I daily my 86 Trans Am. But seriously this is a stupid conversation. Most of these "ricers" have come a long way in the last 15 years. Toyota, Subaru, and Honda probably build more cars in America today than the "domestics".

GD

 

That's not what I said, and you didn't answer my question.

Rick, this is thirdgen.org. Nobody here cares about your Suburu shop in Oregon, or Suburu's in general. I hope you didn't join the forum just to argue with people.


-- Joe

 

Depends on the engine. The EVO's usually get 272 cams and have about 15 in/Hg at 1100 RPM idle.

The Subaru we dont go with radical cams - they don't benefit from it so they do 20 to 23 in/Hg at 700 RPM idle. This is with 80-100 lb injectors. Injector technology has really improved this aspect tremendously. They have dual variable valve timing so they can idle like stock while making 500 HP.

Is that really a surprise though? I mean they sell these cars at the dealer with 300 HP. Don't you suppose they would have to idle pretty good on the dealer lot? LoL

GD

 

Been in plenty of 4-500hp turbo hondas that idle about 800rpm have no vac issues and sound like this at idle. I don't know the vac numbers but I know they were better than a cammed 400+hp 350

 

I didn't start the conversation.

That sounds like an emotional response. I'm just handing out my facts.

We build all manner of fast cars. Not just Subaru. Corvettes, muscle cars.... many things. I'm here because I daily drive a trans am at the moment. I love all performance cars. I don't discriminate.

GD

 

Ehh. This isn't a debate that can be won by either side.

I've also been in a 1200+ hp v8 that was a "street car" and it drove like dog poop. The owner felt it was completely streetable.

A 2017 Corvette z06 is streetable, by comparison.

Even my supercharged 412" formula is a little aggressive for my taste.

That is why I like the LSx stuff. You can take a 6+ liter 400hp n/a motor, add a blower and make 600-800hp and it still drive and idle like stock.

I'm not really a fan of the asian imports simply because they all look ugly. I like Italian cars though. The car in that video is something a poor college student drives until he can get a good enough job to buy a nice car lol.



-- Joe

 

I agree. They are ugly. But that aside they are a lot of fun from the drivers seat.

I don't drive one - I drove them for so long, and every day at work that I don't want to drive one right now. I own several. I just don't drive them daily at the moment.

Aesthetics are subjective. I like my Trans Am. Lots of my customers that drive imports do too. Some of them probably do not.

So what? They are still fast. There's lots of ways to get there - it's all about doing what YOU like for YOUR enjoyment. No one can tell you it is right or wrong. It's all about having fun.

GD

 

I don't get all the hate on the asian cars. I for one think my big old Asian 4 door boat of a car looks damn mean. The 11.5:1 338 cid V8 puts down over 400 hp at the tire through a 7 spd auto. It is a stock engine with intake/exhaust/tuning. Cruises 80 mph at 2,000 rpm and pulls down 26-28 mpg with the a/c blasting. With a 2.2s 60' it pulled its 4,200 lbs curb weight (4450 race weight) into the 12s @ 108 mph before I did anything to it with a 2.62 rear gear and P245/40R20 on the back. It has over 100k on it and I am not afraid to turn the thing to its 7,000 rpm redline. The trans is starting to slip a bit going into 4th but Excedy makes performance clutch packs and Level10 performs valvebody mods. Both of which I will use to beef up the 7spd. Other than that it I will swap a M37 3.36:1 final drive in it someday soon and put some P315/35R20s in the back to replace the 275/40R20s under it now. Nitrous Express makes a nice dual shot nitrous kit that I may also put on it someday. Big boat could possibly run 11s before long and have all the stock driveability it ever had.