Z2EIGHT

There is this kid at school who thinks he is so cool to own a Jetta, and that it was "made for autocross" it could be a GTI VR6 I'm not sure...

Stock Specs:

its the 94 - 98 model...

2.8L V6 172 HP, 173 TQ

Curb weight is 2647LBS

5 SPD

Now it has aftermarket parts, I'm not sure what thought...since he hasn't told me .... I know he bought the car like that, and it has a screwy computer....

He knows some about cars.... though what he knows is BULL

I have a 92 Z28

3103 LBS

5.0 TPI

220HP <---- pulled from consumerguides.com

I know I have an aftermarket exhuast.... Bought it with it, I don't know what it is specifically...

I am getting 3.42s and a Transgo shiftkit for Christmas

Little K&Ns....

Anyways Would that be enough to be stock? Since there is a huge weight difference, and with drivers an extra 100lbs for me...

So What do you guys think? I hate this kid, he drives like a nut, and there is a huge wide open stretch...of barren wasteland to tear up....

-Thanks

91_B4C_RS

his jetta is a mid 16 to high 16 sec car. he is gonna get his *** handed to him!!!!!!!]


i dont even know why u are concerned??????

Z2EIGHT

Well seeing that is obviously isnt stock... what would he have to do to beat my car?

vwdave

Umm....sorry. Wrong. Try mid 15's stock. OP, please ignore his post.

Those cars are strong runners. Especially in the midrange.

Fortunately for you, there isnt a ton of mods for VR6's that are both cheap and effective. No single mod under $500 will give him more than 5hp. Now if he had nitrous, thats a whole nother story. The VR6 is a bulletproof bottom end and can run a 75-100 shot all day long and run mid-high 13's like that.

They are rated at 172 at the crank, but a good running VR6 will do ~150 to the tires without too much trouble.

As for the "Screwy" computer, I wonder if his MAF sensor took a crap. VERY common for that to happen on the 94-05 VW's. Thats the first place I would look if I were him.

1BADROC

iTrader: (1)

you got him all the way one thing about the tpi's they are great off the line. you have a whole lot more torque that will put you in the winners circle np. Your car can run low 15's stock. where im at its high above sea level my buddies 85 tpi ran 15.7 that would be about a 14.8 or so sea level. Only mod on the car was it was stripped down probably lost 300lb's. The car had 230,000 miles tho and smoked like a freight train. run 93octane only run 1/4 of a tank and lower the tire pressure to 25psi that will help you hook up and the less gas with weight.

87TPI350KID

A guy at my school had a 2.8vr6 of the same year, 5 speed.

It has a cold air intake, headers and full exhaust. he showed me a timeslip of 15.3x @ 92 mph.

Not that slow. Id say a stock one runs high 15s.

vwdave

The old 6.6 Trans Ams had tons of torque. You do not see those things winning too many street races.

'86 350

Go from a dig, not a roll.

1991CamaroRslow

iTrader: (3)

You should have him covered from a dig if you can get the car out of the hole. If he drives like a nut he'll probably dump the clutch and fry his tires. A kid around here runs a VR6 Golf and that little sucker is quick, it's surprised quite a few people. In your case, doubt a properly tuned TPI car would have alot of trouble with a VR6 Jetta but it honestly could come down to a drivers race. Just make sure you're in top running condition and don't give him a long enough stretch to pull a fly by on you. Good luck with the run.

1BADROC

iTrader: (1)

dave those old 6.6 T/A's weighed like 4200 pounds without the driver plus they only had
455 HO

WX

4M

200@3500

330@2000 pulled this from a specs site they have 10hp less and only 30 more fpt you telling me the 2ndgen lead sleds can out run a 3rdgen weighing 1,000lbs less with less hp and a little bit more torque. remember after 71 nothing had power until the 80's due to the stupid people in washington DC. If he can drive that vw is toast. Dave look up your history next time before you say something like the 2ndgens had tons of torque. In 71 the 455 had like 480fpt and the old hemi's, 440 sixpacks, and pretty much any big motor prior to 72 . You dont see those cars losing many street races. Hell their isnt a stock foreign car that exists that can beat mr norms 440 Dart ran 10's stock with street tires melting down the track put some slicks on taht thing and run low 9's.

Mike-in-Orange

...so naturally he wants to drag race. Yeah, this kid doesn't sound too bright to me.

vwdave

Its hard to reply because youre speaking jibberish and making things up. But I'll try anyways.

You said you have tons more torque so you will win. While in SOME cases that is true, torque is highly overrated and alot of domestic owners think its the end all. The old late late 70's TA's had the 6.6 and they had tons of low end torque and they were slower than dog crap. Low end torque is good for towing, not for racing. You have to figure how many times are you going to be in the low end while drag racing? Once, MAYBE twice? You are at peak horsepower and at the top of the RPM band two to three times and spend a majority of your time there. My L98 has over 311lb-ft to the tires, the problem is the car is hard to launch because it just wants to boil the tires. Usually when you alot of low end bias like a L98 you do not have alot of power in the top end and thats what you need to win races.

What you are forgetting to mention there Smarty McSmartington, is yes while those cars had torque, they had ALOT of top end horsepower, really short gears and were basically set up from the factory to race.

Also, the VR6 is horrible for autocross because its very nose heavy.

Sonix

iTrader: (1)

Why don't you just race him and find out?

Post back the results.

This board seems to be littered with people asking who will win, then never actually having the ***** to go find out. GO FIND OUT. You two can have a few beers after and set each other straight (depending on who wins, but I do have faith in the 3rd gen, and not the grocery getter economy box Jetta )

brodyscamaro

Everybody knows torque <3500rpms is the most important thing in a race because that's where you spend all your time.

Codename 47

iTrader: (4)

... And doing 5 mile long burnouts

MrDude_1

i used to own a 2001 VR6 jetta...

i drove it from litterally the beach here in charleston, sc, to dallas texas.. loaded it up with 4 other peoples luggage, and with some friends, we all cruised triple digits (with hour long streches at the 138 limiter) across the country to vegas....

got there, did not even unload the luggage, and went to street car night at the dragstrip there....
the jetta ran a 15.7....... then a 16.1, but i ****ed the launch...
this was a FULLY LOADED jetta... heated leather seats, hell even the mirrors were heated.. lol.... cd changer.. everything you could get, plus the luggage... plus im not exactly light.


if you're a TBI car, and the jetta driver can drive, you're going to lose.. if you're a 350 TPI and know what your doing at a dragstrip, then theres no contest..... but if you dont know how to launch/drive..... and you dont know how to keep your car in peak mechanical shape, i wouldnt go talking ****... ive beat plenty of cars that are faster, purly because the driver didnt know how to drive.

Z2EIGHT

1. I'm not old enough to drink...

2. SONIX: The closest drag strip is 2 hours away... I would have to street race him, and I just got this car, I promised my parents I would not speed or race, and I don't plan on doing a lot of this, I would do one race to shut him up... not to race, maybe get beat and hear his crap forever... I'm not racing him for respect or the thirll.. just to shut him up....

The car is a 305TPI w/full exhaust, its getting a transgo shift kit, and 3.42s, F1 GS-D3, SLP Cold Air Induction, SLP Intake Runners, Fuel Injectors(unknown), and a Pro-Tuned Chip (unknown)..

I know I am getting new springs and sway bar for new years....

1BADROC

iTrader: (1)

dave you keep saying the late 70's 6.6's had tons of low end torque they dont. They need a lot more to move those boats. 330fpt at the fly a lot of low end torque for a 6.6? Thats laughable considering they had around 500fpt in the birds prior to 72 those would beat down a jetta. You need torque to get you off the line jetta has nothing compared to the tpi. Jetta would start pulling on him probably at about 70mph but by then it would be to late. i roasted the tires off mine when i first put the 6speed in was racing a little acura rsx or what ever it is. My 60 foot was so bad i ran a 16.5 he ran a 15.6 but i still ran him down and beat him lost in time tho. I run low 14's at 98mph when i can get off the line but no worse than a 14.6 now. If i was at sea level id run about a 13.5. Thing is tho the jetta doesnt have the power to come back and beat him. It is easy to get off the line in these cars with auto's. maybe you need to learn how to get off the line with your l98 i had np with the auto.
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Also I want to know what i made up?

vwdave

Is that why I have NO problem beating cars off the line? Because I cannot drive? Out of some 70+ street races I have lost off the line probably 5 times. That was due to either racing a faster car or a STI. Most of those races were in my VW. A car on 18" street tires without a posi and 250lb-ft at the tires. BTW, lb-ft is spelled just like I wrote it. Not pf. I can get the L98 off the line. Its just a little more difficult than it should be.

I can guarentee you those VR6's have NO problem getting off the line. They have relatively short gears and when launching at 3k RPM's and slipping the clutch they can get out of their own way. If you do not have torque, you replace it with different gears to make up for it.

You are making things I am supposedly saying up. At least thats what I got out of that jibber you called a post.

MrDude_1

put springs and swaybars and shocks to make your thirdgen handle good, and unless you have some R compound "street" rubber, id bet i can come off the line faster, more consistantly with a stock 16" tire VR6 Jetta or GTI.


the only thing the TPI is good for is FEELING fast, and ACTING torquey.... it makes **** for power, it cant breath, and the torque it does have is useless to 90% of you because you cant put it down.

then you do "mods" like swaybars, struts, and dumb crap that hurts drag racing, and wonder why you lost.


with very little exception on this board, most of of the drivers of the stock TPI cars would probly lose the race.. not the car, the driver.
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btw, its the torque put to the ground that moves the car.
this is measured in THOUSANDS of footpounds, as its the torque after gearing... now the input torque of the motor is important, but dont try to imply that a modern long runner intake VR6 doesnt make torque.. it makes almost as much as your TPI car, and more then the TBI cars.... if you're looking at a graph, and not just the peak numbers.

Z2EIGHT

Uh... yes I'm like totally lost....

1991CamaroRslow

iTrader: (3)

Skip the springs and the runners, buy ET Streets and a nitrous kit, done deal.

Z2EIGHT

I don't do Bottles...

1991CamaroRslow

iTrader: (3)

Suit yourself then. ET Streets are still a good idea, lowering springs are a bad idea. As for the sway bar, the stock one should suffice. Our cars handled at close to a full lateral G from the factory yet can still holeshot rather well. Now for the statement that most L98 drivers have trouble putting the power to the ground I honestly would have to agree with this. It takes some finess to keep street tires from boiling behind a properly tuned TPI engine.

84L69TA

I got a newsflash for ya. The 6.6 T/A's were wither Pontiac 400's, or Olds 403's. Also, a GSS 440 Dart was not a 10sec car stock. Granted they were quick, but show me ANY sort of proof they came even close to 10's, let alone 11's.

Mike-in-Orange

Not even close - not if you're talking sustained skidpad numbers. Look at the various reprints posted on the Media section of thirdgen.org and you'll see they actually produced more in the mid 0.8xG range - that's actually a long way from 1.0G. Plus with the flexible chassis/frame/undercarriage/however you want to refer to it, it takes some work to make a thirdgen truly handle with the best of them. Sure, it can and has been done, but out of the box I don't think these cars are all that hot. For their time, and at their price point, maybe. But by 2006 standards, meh. A full 1.0G is modern super car territory - the C6 Z06 barely touches it on a constant radius skidpad but can exceed it by a fair amount (1.13G even) under certain short duration conditions. A stock Thirdgen - no way.

vwdave

I just wrote him off as a big dumme.

TRAXION

Three days ago you said ...

Now all of sudden it is ...

Wow. You quickly added $2000 worth of parts.

Tim

Z2EIGHT

3.42s and Shift kit is for christmas... all that other stuff is afterwards... my bday is in Feb. so thats why I put a lot of that stuff down... the only thing I might not want to buy is headers right away....

LOL

1991CamaroRslow

iTrader: (3)

Z2EIGHT You've got alot of research to do man I can tell you that.

Mike-in-Orange, for our cars handling close to a G I've seen that printed never seen it proven and I'm sure it wasn't constant skid pad testing it's whatever made them look best on paper. Mine would outhandle alot of things I'de driven including newer Mustangs and the Golf GTI before I put 225 pound coilovers in the front. Now it's pretty much a boat on wheels.

Mike-in-Orange

A thirdgen Camaro/Firebird off the showroom floor - 1G lateral. No way in hell.

You've seen it written, never seen it proven.....what the hell does that mean? I've seen all kinds of crap written about all kinds of cars and most of it is pure horse ****. And "handling" is so much more than just max lateral G load anyway. Like I said, a thirdgen can be made to be a great handling car, but they don't come that way out of the box, certainly not by today's standards. I don't consider a new Mustang or GTI to be top tier handling cars either, certainly not in the same class as a Z51 Corvette, Porsche Cayman or BMW Z4 and certainly not up there with the Z06, Ferrari F430 or Ford GT. Hell, a Viper will pull 1G laterally and even it has plenty of handling issues. Perhaps you're the one with the research to do.

Z2EIGHT

Funny.... sorta off topic now....

Mike-in-Orange

Sorry for jacking your thread bro, but I see crazy statements and I just have to say something. I'll stop here.

1991CamaroRslow

iTrader: (3)

First off Mike-in-Orange that opening comment wasn't even directed to you, and I've seen "3rd generation Camaro's handle close to a full lateral G" printed more than once. I re read my post and it does seem that I'm calling you out I'm not. I don't know what stock third gen cars do on a road course nor have I ever been to one. I do know when a kid's in here talking about drag racing, wants to put stiffer lowering springs on his car, and doesn't want to run a bottle, THEN says he's going to mod it yet skip the headers he needs to do some research on what works on our cars.
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Post edited for clarity.

Mike-in-Orange

Yep, I thought that was directed at me, sorry. Given that misunderstanding I didn't mean to come down on you so hard.



And we continue the threadjack........again, sorry.

1991CamaroRslow

iTrader: (3)

No problem. Giving the thread back now, headers and a good exhaust would be the first item I was after. Do all of the free mods listed in the tech section and get a good launch. This should garuntee you a win against a Jetta but anything could happen on the street. Your car's going to get really tricky to launch on 3.42's and if you do decide to lower it LCA relocation brackets are pretty much a must have item. I would try the car as it sits now but if you want a garunteed win get a set of ET Streets and make sure your car's in good tune. Is there any specific reason you don't want to spray the car?

86camedcamaro

toss a plate kit on your car and be done

Z2EIGHT

When you say I need to do my reserch, well yea I am only a 16 kid... I know that doesn't sound too good from an adults point of view, but I don't know the goods and bads for our cars, so if I say something ridiculous or something that is a waste of money or time... just tell me, I'm here to learn....

ETs you say? How about the F1 GS-D3s.... they look like more of a regular tire for everyday driving.... I have to drive to school, work, ETC. This is my only car...

Don't worry about "Jacking" my thread....

-Peace

AUSSIROC

iTrader: (1)

I read all the way to the bottom (38-odd posts), and i still didn't get to read who won! Race ASAP, then post..

Z2EIGHT

I talked to him today, and we are going to race after christmas...

1991CamaroRslow

iTrader: (3)

Good I can't wait to see the results. If you need a daily driving tire I would recommend a drag radial. Nitto, BF Goodrich, and MT all make one that would work well for you. You'de probably want to go with the Nitto's since they have the longest tread life. Have you done any mods to your air box, fuel pressure, timing?

Z2EIGHT

I was looking at the BF's and have found just a few I like... right now, the car has Sunitimos or something like that? I don't know how to spell them since I only looked at them once....

I did not do anything to the fuel, timing, etc. But the previous did some weird but good stuff to the car, and if I keep looking I'll find more stuff...

I actually bought it from a small dealer so I couldn't get a hold of the original owner.... they gave me his name, and cell #, but it didn't work...

Well, if I don't talk to you guys over the weekend,

Merry Christmas...

vwdave

For free stuff....

Bump your timing from 6* to 8*
Port your upper intake. Right behind the TB there is two walls that need to go.

I havent done free stuff in awhile, so thats all I can remember.

1991CamaroRslow

iTrader: (3)

Here's pretty much a full list of easy free mods you can do in a day or two. Gut the air box (no bottoms the filters can see light) and run some dryer ducting to your fog light holes. Descreen the MAF at your own risk (gave me 2 tenths but I probably will do less on a stockish 305). Take the coolant lines off of the throttle body and bypass them with a length of hard line. Take off the plenum and knock out the walls at the entry, radius the entries into the runners so they look like an air foil (search site for write up). While the plenum's off use a security style torx bit to pull off your fuel pressure regulator top and stick a quarter in there (this should be worth 3 to 5 psi on your fuel pressure). Stick in a 180 degree Tstat with a small hole drilled in the edge, and wire your fans to a switch inside the car. Finally bump your base timing to 4 degrees and fill the tank with high octane gas. This is a days worth of work and will help your car quite a bit. You can take it further but these mods will make your car substantially more powerful. This should assure you a win against most mid 15 second cars without a struggle. After this the next "free" mod you should be delving into would be porting the base, and heads, after this you'll have to get into prom tuning to get the most out of your car.

vwdave

Thats not really a "Free" mod then is it?

1991CamaroRslow

iTrader: (3)

Good point, make it a penny and find it on the ground

EvoTech1

Yeah vr6 jettas and golfs are QUICK. if you are racing on a highway, its tough to beat a car engineered for the autobahn. They dont have top end, but its geared to take advantage of the midrange and cruise at high speeds. Kinda like the 66 olds I drive. It doesnt have top end, but with the stock gears, i hit 3rd at over 65 mph and from the bottom of third up till it noses over i'm in the fat part of the power band. feels a lot like top end.

And for those talking about torque meaning you'll kill on the launch, whatever. maybe if you have slicks and a prepped track. Torque blows your tires off, and by the middle of first gear his lack of torque is no longer a factor. Where it helps, is when he hits second or third and drops revs he loses power. you hit 3rd, lose revs, and accelerate harder than at the top of the previous gear...

In my experience (4 years of active street racing, 3 years of legitimate involvement) it'll be about the race's setup. play to his weakness. Try to get him to run from a 5-15 mph roll, so you can floor it and use your torque without breaking loose, and he'll be below his powerband, unable to launch in the fat part of his power. The slower you can do that at the better. try to get him to be at a point where if, he hits it, there will be a moment where his car struggles to get back into the midrange. Like 5 mph or so, or find out where he has to go into second, and start from the bottom of his second gear. like 30 mph or whatever. and do those timing and thermostat mods. they are cheap, and i gained about a quarter of a second on the TBI 305 car before i put in the 350.

and lastly, be realistic. When I first had a thirdgen, i raced civics, and this one in particular was a really good race. he had a 91 civic with a JDM DOHC ZC, and we ran neck and neck. When i would let the tranny shift itself in drive i'd win, but when i held it in each gear and revved the **** outta it, i'd fall behind. sometimes its better to be in a higher gear and in your powerband, than trying to squeeze a few more rpms out of each gear. TPI motors nose over. overrun their powerband and you'll lose speed.

vwdave

35 mph is revved out in 1st.