EvoTech1

Ok so my neighbor works at an import shop in kent, and has this 99 civic hatch. Last spring he went with a "mini me" swap. (non vtec d16 with sohc e-vtec head, raises compression, and gives slightly more tq down low) he ran high 15's, and thusly unsatisfied, started saving for more power. This spring he came out with a bone stock h22 prelude motor, for those of you who still think vortec heads and roller cams are high tech, that motor is the big block of the honda family, with variable valve timing, high compression, you name it. 220+ hp stock, 180 ftlb plus his headers, exhaust and intake means this little civic hatch, is now putting about 210hp to the wheels. We decide to go down to the newly widened highway onramp to give it a go, so we go from like a 15mph roll, which sucks cuz I have a 2 speed shifter from a f85 so I cant drop into 1st and hold it. Launching from second, he pulls a car and a half on me, but at the top of the gear (about 60) I start pulling. I hit 3rd, and my car hits the fat part of the torque band and i pull ahead. at about 85, my car starts seeming like its not pulling good, and he nudges past as we approach 100. For the rest of the mile until the next exit, my car bucks and surges at 55, i pull off into the local Baxter's, borrow a plug wrench, and I have a fouled plug. Great race though, even if I do have a bad head. I think i would have held him off. I didnt know that torque and highway gears meant for top end fun... I thought honda's had the top end.

urbanhunter44

iTrader: (3)

It's a common mistake that imports for some reason make more top end than a domestic... guess they've never heard of long duration cams and short runner intakes

What kind of car do you have exactly?

EvoTech1

its a 66 oldsmobile that at one time was either a 442 or a 442 clone, I got it with little interior, and its put back together street racer style. Buckets from a 67 skylark, dash from a cutlass supreme (with a cool rear window defogger switch that will someday activate the nitrous solenoids) and it has the column shifter from a 2 speed car, so I have d and l, meaning I cant slam into 1st, and the kickdown isn't working so its kinda like you peg the throttle, and a big magnet pulls you forward, with very little revving.

Its got a 455 with 9:1 (approx) compression, a mild mild mild dual pattern cam (almost a gas saver, but with increased exhaust duration), stock dual plane intake, edelbrock carb w/1" open spacer, marine high silicon pistons, and G casting small valve heads (although the same casting went on 442's with SLIGHTLY bigger valves)

Powers all done by a little over 4200 and I guess it makes 285hp and maybe 375ftlb or so at the wheels...
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forgot to post, he just had a 14.68 run with new tuning, and he's purchased a turbo... claims he'll run 12's by seasons end on slicks.... we'll see.

stu

Tell him to stop wasting his time with stupid motor swaps and just turbo the damn thing if he ever wants to be fast.
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Just saw this. Tell him good luck with a turbo and that motor with weak *** ring lands. 7 psi on a Honda motor = not worth it. At least it's in a light car.

EvoTech1

he told me juicing a h22 was a bad idea cuz of those ring lands, but he says he can turbo it and make it last because of "tuning". When he got the h22 he told everyone he had a deeper exhaust thats all, by tuning maybe he meant forged pistons.

urbanhunter44

iTrader: (3)

stu is right, 7 psi won't get him much. He'll want about 20+ psi to really start moving

EvoTech1

the 14.6 was on street tires, he is going to the track with slicks the next nice day the tracks open

he might hit high 13's with slicks, he has a good clutch so I think with 7 psi he may shave a second off... if a power adder isnt good for a full second what the hell is it worth?

speaking of that, would a 75 shot help me hit 13's? Can you spray on high silicone pistons? that may be off topic

I need to represent... there arent many old american cars at the races in tacoma, I need to hit 13's for some respect. tons of imports hit 14's

80smetalfan

7 psi can knock off 1-2 seconds off of a modern V8 car's ET. Not seeing it happen on a I4 that's one fourth the size. Those things take about twice the boost to see a one-second improvement.

I would head over to OldsPower.com to inquire about your 455. Even as heavy as your car is, they can go MUCH faster than 14.6s without using a power adder.


Also, is it now considered okay to post non 3rd-gen races in here? Not trying to get you in trouble, I just wanna post mine! (always with buddies, usually have videos from one of the two cars)

stu

Your pretty far off here. 7 psi is plenty to knock at least a second of the quarter mile time (especially with that motor in that light of a chasis) but who cares about going from a high 16 to a high 15? No one, that's who. My car had 15 psi and I went from a high 16 to a high 13 and went from trapping 80 mph to 106 mph. All on a stock block. Don't ever forget about the weight when dealing with imports.

mrpopo573

I applaud you. Kent is filled with guys like your friend there, nice to hear someone out there with some muscle.

There are 2 1968 442 verts, built mondello original 400's sitting undercover at our resto lot. My dad has owned them since before I was born.

Torque. I have never felt 4200 lbs move so well.

Again, great kill.

EvoTech1

well I HAVE a third gen, but it's currently under repair from getting tboned by a minivan. Its in running order, but the bodywork is going to be a nightmare. ANYWAY he hit 13.6@98 on slicks and boltons so he may get to the 12's.

stu

I'm sure he will. If you check that link I had rx7speed put up in the "Fastest Competition" thread there is an H22 turbo in the 500 whp neighborhood.

FbodTrek

Stu, you're a Honda guy, you DO realize that the Hatch guys are breaking 12's with 200 whp right? A stock H22 isn't gonna get 200 at the wheels, but its there at the crank...with a set of cams, boltons adn tuning, it'd prolly be able to break into the 12's easily enough witha good set of tires... Maybe things are different up there, theres a quite a few All motor 1.6's adn 1.8's here in Houston in the 12's (not even talking the "Honda Big block"). Heck, tehres a single cam making like 245 at the wheels

stu

Oh I know, I already said he won't have any problems getting into the 12's in that hatch.

EvoTech1

WHAAAT?

FbodTrek

welcome to the future. Theres a reason I gave up thirdgens and bought my Nissan 240sx. I'm making 240 whp on a mustang dyno (that's about 260~ on a Dynojet), guess what kinda times my car is capable of? (In case you're wondering it's a boosted 2.4L RWD car, total setup including car, pain, turbo etc, 3K )
Lightweight cars can be rockets, adn alot more people are realizing it everyday (unfortunately). Parts are cheaper, nicer, adn theres more of them. It's no wonder what the youngins' are thinking when they put a hot motor in a sub 2200lb car. I still love a thirdgen for its looks, but If I wanna go fast, I ahve alotta options nowdays, adn a 1200$ set of heads isn't one of them

80smetalfan

Okay, but how fast is your car, in actuality.

There are L98 cars on this board with 3-4k turbo setups hitting low 12s and 11s, and they didn't need any $1200 set of heads. 89JYTurbo's car is bone stock except for a T-56 and a twin turbo setup, and he's hit 12.4s at 117 mph on only 6 psi. And that's on a 1.9 60'.

Remember that some of the youngins are buying LS1 4th gens, and doing turbo setups like your car, only they're hitting 10s and lower.

Being in a light weight car is great and all, but weight is only half of what determines the ulmighty power to weight ratio.

EvoTech1

I wish any ONE of my cars ran 12's

which one is closest? Maybe 75 and 125 shot dual stage on the smallblock cutlass? 125 shot on the daily driver big block?

and I'd guess his 2.4 turbo motor is putting out torque, maybe he runs 13's?

yeah people are putting power adders on ls1 and blowing doors off, but I could buy a beater 240 for 1000$, I couldnt even get a beater six 4th gen for that...an LS1 4th gen that runs is at least 5000$

plus the 240 will get more chicks than a 4th gen. 4th gens are kinda goofy lookin.

3rdgens + Turbos...... that ****s hot.

80smetalfan

I dunno. 4th gen WS6s (especially the 98+) are just beautiful. Never cared much for the 4th gen Camaros, but man the TA's are awesome. You can always get an LT1 4th gen cheap, and run low 11s on the boost.

But I'm planning on getting a L98 thirdgen myself (and not a 4th gen) this summer, and looking into a turbo setup, so I'd have to agree that turbo+3rd gen is just a marvelous idea.

What's crazy about 89JY's car is that 117 mph is easily enough trap speed for an 11 second pass. I guess 470 lb-ft to the wheels has a way of motivating things.

FbodTrek

Let's jsut say guys with 2.4L Turbo 240sx's are running high 12's with 270 wheel horsepower (adn yes, they make as much or MORE torque than horsepower...it isn't a Honda motor afterall).... I personally built my turbo setup for about 800 bux initially, then I fragged a used turbo adn bought a custom built one for 600 bux more. I have NO formal tuning done to the car, it's running an FMU with stock maps. With proper timing and fuel control, my setup wouldn't have any trouble at all making 300 whp or so. But then i only ahve one kill under my belt since the new turbo (an Acura NSX....). With the old setup making 200whp, I had no problem putting 4-6 cars on the Lt1 guys. I'd love to turbo a V8 car, and make gobs more power, but gas is hella expensive right now. Adn it always feels good to remind myself that I can molest 80thousand dollar cars with a car I paid 800 bux for (plus 1400 for goodies)

stu

FMU!!!! If I won the lotto today, I'd PayPal you some money to get a real fuel management setup. Hell, at least get like an AFC or something.

FbodTrek

I tried, for some odd reason when I wire up the SAFC's, they send a back feed through my cam trigger, adn the thing won't spark. BELIEVE me, I'd love to put in my bigger injectors, MAF, adn actually tune the thing. Money isn't the problem, its getting it to work. I think a wire is crossed somewhere, or my ECU is fubared somehow....dunno. But if it makes you feel any better, the next mod is a BTM.

stu

I had an SAFC with a BTM. I thought it worked pretty well. Until I put a check valve on the MAP line.

25thmustang

I can say this, 265 rwhp is good for 12.5s and better. I would say the right set up and 260-270 rwhp and you could be in the low 12s.

I will say this, there is a LOT more to track times and how fast a car is than just all out power. I have seen 550rwhp cars go 11.9s and seen 300 rwhp cars run the same times.

stu

25thmustang

Thats why I said Rwhp... Throw on a sticky tire, and launch to the hills.

sasser43

I liked this thread when i saw the title just because someone spelled vtec right and not vtech. sounds like you had a good run. It kinda makes me feel better because im looking to trade my 3rd gen for a hatch or something. I dont like the newer honda civics tho, i like the 94s. It doesnt look as girly I guess you could say. So as far as power is concerned on a stock level, someone will be getting a deal of a lifetime if I trade my 3rd gen to them.

urbanhunter44

iTrader: (3)

Why would you trade an L98 GTA for a civic??

Gas prices be damned - I wouldn't drive a civic for anything.

PHAT89TA

funny thing tony is that i had more compliments in my previous ***** cars (candyapple 88 honda accord lxi and 95 civic ex 5 speed)then i did with my thirdgen and my 4th gen

urbanhunter44

iTrader: (3)

lol were they riced out, or stock? a riced out anything gets compliments for some damn reason..

of course my 25th got everyone looking and talking

25thmustang

My car doesnt turn heads yet (its designed to look stock but run hard) but when people see it at the track and ask about it, it gets people talking. This summer Im looking for a magazine feature, so the car should get people looking and talking even before the track passes. Then when they know whats done and what it runs... should do it all well.

PHAT89TA

well my 88 accord had those fart can muffler but it was very deep for a 4 banger. the 88 accord was lowered with sportlines and had some 16in chrome albas and 3k's worth of stereo system. the paint was also been refreshed with metallic brugandy paint with purple pearl which made it looks candy color. the 95 civic was all stock except for z3 fenders, white painted interior plastic pieces, lowered with 15in einkie rims, razo short throw shifter, and clear corners. I guess i live in riced infested areas. At least i don't get messed around with when im in my thirdgen and ws6

DuronClocker

iTrader: (1)

I'm curious to know how you claim you "KILLED" him when he beat you to 100mph? Am I missing something here?

80smetalfan

No kidding. A GTA in good condition is a nice freaking car. Buy a motocycle and drive it if your worried about gas. Bike > Civic.

EvoTech1

Well you shoulda been thurr... I had a bad start, stayed with him, pulled past him through what should have been his strength (his 3rd gear), and then I slowed due to oil fouling on a plug... so yeah not exactly a victory, but he was gettin killed. Had we gone from a dig, or even if my car could have kicked down to first gear when we hit it, the race never would have gotten near 100. But it was an entertaining run.

LOL, all this talk about 240's, my dad was SHOCKED to see a japanese car doing a RWD burnout on pinks last week....

BTW anyone want to buy one of my cars? All need paint. but I need a 4 cylinder commuter, and a truck to facilitate a new business venture... trades would be considered.

25thmustang

So let me see if Im on the right track here:

You and him raced. At the end of the race he was ahead. You give us all these reasons he beat you. Now your saying you consider it a kill...

Just wondering if that about sums it up? Because last time I raced at the track I lost, but I went from a 1.69 60' to a 1.79 and thats why I lost. Now if only the track officials would have realized I spun and gave me the win things would be different, but as they and I know no matter what happens, he won.

sasser43

Sigh, gas prices and college. My college is over an hour away from home and i drive home a lot. Plus where the college is, its nothing but stop and go traffic, even the highways. Not only gas, I'm looking for something a little bit more reliable. My GTA has never left me stranded, but i dont wanna take the chance.

Im sure you can appreciate the fact though that id rather beat up on a civic then the GTA and give the GTA to someone who has the time and money to take care of it. Honestly I wont give a **** if I put dents in a civic and drive it to pieces.

urbanhunter44

iTrader: (3)

Hmm I can see how a civic would have better gas mileage over an L98 car (but not compared to modern V8s), but I don't know about reliability. It's all in how you take care of something. If you took care of your GTA, and it's in good shape, it'll be just fine. A 90k civic isn't going to be inherently more reliable than a 90k mile GTA simply because it's a civic.

PHAT89TA

not necessarily. My civic and my T/A had similar miles on it and i had no problems with my civic. With the t/a i had problems with the valve seals, a/c compressor, leaky t-tops,etc. then again my t/a was an 89 and my civic is a 95

urbanhunter44

iTrader: (3)

Exactly. The civic was much newer, that was the difference.

Reliablity has a huge amount of factors. Age, mileage and the way it's been driven are the chief factors.

PHAT89TA

i'll give another example. my 95 civic ex vs my friends 96 camaro z-28
civic had no problems and had higher miles.
z-28 head gasket, intake manifold gasket, t-top leaks, rear end noise, and couple other misc stuff that i forgot. Im sorry but the japs cars are built better. my dads 90 toyota corolla, freaking thing has almost 270k miles on it and it still drives fine.

80smetalfan

I put over 40k on a 1991 L03 Camaro RS in two years (went from 170k to 217k) and it never once had anything break other than an alternator, and I drove it HARD. Not babied, I'm talking at least 10 trips to the strip over the summer (probably 3 passes a night) with plenty of pedal to the floor.

The 350 in my Cutlass was pulled from my old Suburban with over 300k on it, and it has had the absolute living **** reamed out of it. Already hit the strip this spring and is street raced for kicks and also driven harder than the average consumer drives a Civic. When it was in the Suburban it was also a towing motor. And it commutes 30 miles daily, 6 days a week. No problems there either, other than carb problems. If it were EFI, there would be no carb problems. I've got valve seal smoke at startup and that's about it.

You can keep pulling examples of Jap cars, I can keep pulling examples of American cars. The auto media agrees with you, the average mechanic agrees with me. There is no point or end to this argument, might as well leave it at that.

sasser43

True, but its also that if something does break on the civic, its nothing to fix. You can practicly just unbolt anything right off in the engine bay without unbolting other stuff to get to it. If something goes wrong on the GTA, well you have to set half a day aside just to fix it. Especially since i still have all my emissions hooked up to get in the way.

80smetalfan

Try changing front axles on a Civic.

sasser43

haha. well hopefully i wont have a problem with the front axle.

urbanhunter44

iTrader: (3)

That's not true at all. I work 40+ hours during the week as a mechanic and I'd gladly work on a thirdgen any day of the week over any year honda. MUCH simpler, and usually much cheaper.

It all comes down to how the cars are treated and taken care of. My 180k+ mile 1988 suburban hasn't given me one problem in the 20k miles that have ALL been spent towing 5000lbs+ trailers and equipment. On the other hand, my friend owns a 1993 Honda Accord with 180k and it's the biggest piece of **** I've ever seen. One problem after the other.

Jap cars aren't built any better.. it all boils down to the consumer and how he takes care of his vehicle. One 1990 Camaro with 90k can be a pile of ****. And another can be in prestine condition and never give you a problem. It's all about taking care of it.

80smetalfan

Maintenance is the key.

And if the car is driven hard, as long is it's not driven STUPIDLY it will survive in most cases. You don't have to be picky or **** about the maintenance, it just has to be done "enough".

And I find this applies to most any makes or models. I've seen and messed with enough Hondas to realize it's not like Civic's are unreliable, because they can be extremely reliable. Heck, I hate Mazdas because of bad experiences with them, but my dad's 1990 Miata seems to keep on tickin (though he's wising up and ditching it for Solstice ). But Jap cars, they ain't got nothin' on a small-block Chevy powered vehicle.

sasser43

In the year ive had my gta, ive done nothing but take care of it. Ive had problems one after the other. In the last year ive had: Fuel pump, fuel pump relay, lock cylinder went bad, tilt steering bolts had to be tighten, steering column upper shaft bearing came apart, broken rotor, smog pump went bad, belt broke, alternator went bad, passenger side window motor has gone bad, oil sending unit went bad, a coolant line busted, and now my GD sending unit to my fuel guage has gone bad. Any problem that goes wrong with a fbody has went wrong on my car. If it wasnt for this site to get some answers to the problem, it would have been sold a couple months after i got it.

This is driving my car softly, only sometimes a little street racing.

80smetalfan

Ugh. No fun at all, that sucks. Did this car sit without being driven for any period of time?

sasser43

The only time it sat was a period of 2-4 weeks because i had no time to take the fuel pump out. Its given me wayyy too many problems and has got me not wanting another fbody again for a while.

Oh yea, i still gotta get around to replacing those valve seals. Gotta love that smoke everytime i crank up that makes the car look like a POS to other ppl.