Mcdamit

if it was solely for track purposes, mustang, if it for street use f- body. The f body suspension should hold on the street,(slight modifications) with that amount of horsepower, but the death to the tpi is an absolute must. My biggest suggestion would be a motor swap, keep it a first gen small block but either a 302 and then you can't argue about displacement, or a 383. The 350 would cost too much to build.

Short Block 302- It will not kill the driveline with torque...long power band, 7000rpm shift point.

Dart Block- 1900
heads-1000
headers-150
HsR- 530
Cam & others 700
Internals 1000

So about 6K for a full race engine now sell the L98 for 5-700 bucks maybe 5400, for a 600hp high revving high end engine.

IROCThe5.7L

I say it depends on the builder and his knowledge

stu

Exactly! I think we should moddify the question.

If Brad Pitt had a Mustang with $5,000 to spend. Woodrow Wilson had a third gen with $5,000 to spend, who could build the faster car?

Dizturbed One

I HATE FORDS

But the Mustang will win.

I say 305 vs. 302 is the ONLY comparison to make here... Other than that you might as well not make the comparison right? Because then all you're dealing with is the body and frame, and everything else is subject to question.

I say you set some ground rules like DRIVETRAIN MODIFICATION ONLY.

5000 on the drivetrain of a 305 will not compete with 5000 on the drivetrain of a 302.

Forged bottom end, and cheapo aftermarket win's it for Ford. The Mustang could just plain DO MORE with 5000 bucks than we could, without having to worry about the transmission or rear end (like we do).

And they ARE easier to work on, so more free stuff to do also.

Too bad they are ugly and handle like a piece of plywood with a wheel bolted to each corner, or I'd get one to beat around as a daily driver while I worked on my beloved Camaro.

Street Lethal

iTrader: (16)

Since we're already starting with a Tuned Port Injected L98, the cost of swapping to the Holley Stealth Ram is very minimal ($500.00 with fuel rail, and AFPR). Maintain the stock fuel pump, but install some 30-psi injectors... and up the fuel pressure.

The 215 Dart "Iron Eagle" heads are not aluminum, but I feel are the best heads to go with for a 350 (approximately $1000.00 complete). Combined with the right cam, Car Craft easily put out 500-HP on a 350 with them recently.

The Lethal-EFI cam speaks for itself (estimating around $400.00 - $500.00 dollars), and although it's costly, you'd have no choice but to go with it, that is, to optimize the most performance you're trying to obtain with a $5000.00 budget.

Despite contrary belief, exhaust is not a factor! There are guys over here running in the 10's with 2 1/2 inch "Meineke" systems. Long tube headers will obviously work best, so if you can squeeze them in the budget, go for it (Let's go with $1000.00 for whatever system you'd like)....

As for the tranny, I'd go with an 10 inch stall speed converter ($400.00) for the stock 700R4, Corvette servo and shift kit ($100.00). I myself would also install completely different gears in the tranny, but that's just me.

The rearend, again for an L98, is pretty stout. It's most certainly not the strongest rearend ever made, but it should hold until after the point has been made. Swap to a set of 4.10's ($300.00), and if possible, ladder bars ($400.00).

Total $4,200.00. The rest can go on drag tires and injectors of you're choosing...

If you're not running in the mid to high 10's afterwards, naturally aspirated, then there's something seriously wrong with whoever did the tuning (Have RBob burn you a chip, since you're a fellow mod, I'm sure he'll help ya out, just this time though)....

Now, 25th, kindly embellish on what you would do to the Mustang's 302 to reach these 1/4 mile numbers, naturally aspirated, for approximately five gee's....

lilbowilson

iTrader: (2)

Well Timothy Siford other wise know as TRAXION ran a 11.66 ET in his stock bottom end 90 Iroc on drag radials, wonder what he could have got with slicks! He spent about $6500 though, on everything else but if you cut corners in some areas I think you could get to the $5000 mark and get close to the same time.

I think it is a fair comparison 350 vs 302 because it was a option that year for the camaro and you have to give the camaro some kind of edge to make up for the 200lbs weight differents.

Also someone stated that it cost more to build a 350 than a 302 thats not true it cost the same for both engines to be rebuilt. Unless your trying to put all forged parts in a 350 which I don't think its needed because there are cheaper pistons that are rated 500+hp for $150, Eagle rods $239 rated 500hp, and there have been many nodular cranks that with stood 500hp.

Ford parts are not cheaper than Chevy parts! Just pick up a Summit catalog or Jegs. Prices are the same from heads, cams, exhausts, headers, gears, and trannys! Don't try to tell me other wise I have both catalogs right here infront of me.
Unless you buy your parts from Auto Zone LOL!

stu

Does the car only have to last about 5 runs?

lilbowilson

iTrader: (2)

(I run consistent 7.9-8.0s in the 1/8th and have yet to see a tweak in my car. When I was going 8.3s in the 1/8th I didnt even have subframes, and have 135,000 miles. I think your friend just got a crappy car!)

25thmustang just so you'll know my friend has the exact same 25th mustang you got his engine was fully rebuilt with Gt-40 heads bigger cam, cobra intake, h-pipe, subframes, and 3:73 gears many other mods too. He was getting the same times as a 370hp 95 351 saleen 8.6 sec 1/8 mile.

On that same day:
93 Z28 with just exhaust 8.7 ets
GTP 8.9 ets one time he got a 8.7
2002 GT stang 9.3 ets all day
96 cobra with 4:10 gears 9.2 sec all day we made fun of him ALOT!
Supercharged 91 or 92 mustang 7.8 ets
My dads 377 66 nova 7.14 ets
My dads 66 chevelle 6.52 ets with nos 5.8 ets
My 95 eclipse RS 10.23 et yeah thats right! My car is the SH@T

Your car is killer 25th you have a half sec on stock Mach 1's and 05 Mustangs but those cars with your mods don't get those times here. I go to the track every other week and street race even more I just don't see it!

Street Lethal

iTrader: (16)

That's 1/8th mile, right? j/k

Nice times!

Mcdamit

how do you figure? If we were only talking transmissions its a drivers race are, or are you refering to motors as well. I know my little stocker 305 runs dead even with a mustang of the same year, so i would imagine the same for the later G92 cars as well.



Oh i stated the sole purpose of the 302 would be because of the ability to pick up revolutions at the same bore as a 350. 2000rpm can mean a race.

25thmustang

As far as the exact combo, I have a few friends with TFS headed comboes running mid 10s N/A. Im not sure the exact details but I can gaurentee it be duplicated for $5000. The Mustang would only need a clutch and gears to hold the power (again this is a toss up as some 14 second cars break parts) and wouldnt need any suspension mods. As far as times, 11s on street tires would happen...

Unless someone goes out and does it, noone will really know, but bang for buck, it really is hard to beat a 5.0 Mustang!

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

its VERY hard to compare a 350 auto fbody with a 302 5speed stang

mods list has to be specified......like N/A only... or are poweradders allowed?

too many variables.....gearing disadvantages, etc.......
you can build VERY CHEAP 355-383 motors and make 500hp easily. i mean for like 3000 or less......it can be done easily.

and i seriously doubt that the T5 in the stang will handle much power......the fbody T5's dont and i dont see what the difference in the two is .........please educate me on this one

and a 92 has the 10 bolt rear, but what bout a older one with the 9bolt? that could be a better comparison. it wil hold abit more power

25thmustang

I have been in and seen 11 and 10 second T5 cars. Even saw many vids of a mid 9 second car on a stock T5. If you dont put in an extremely hard clutch (which everyone does) they last a lot longer. Ill say it is a gamble, but then again every cars parts are gambles, such as the rear ends, bottem ends, etc...

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

i mean i can see it holding for a pass or two, but come on.......stock T5 cant hold that much power.... people are spending good cash to put TKO's in to handle 500-600hp and tq. i find it hard to believe a 9 second car can run a stock T5. but i am in the dark here, and i know you know your stuff, but it just sounds abit hard to believe. i would liek to see it....

nick418

A stock t5 runnin 9s? WTF? A stock GM t5 couldnt even be order with a lousy L98 that runs 14s.. and the tranny cant be ALL that much DIFF

CaysE

LOL... it's amusing watching the number of people post trying to alter the point of this thread. There are no "drivetrain only" rules, no "naturally aspirated only" rules, nothing except it has to be from the 1992 model year and you have $5000 to spend on mods. Naturally, from 1992, the best platform to start with would be a 1LE 350 which comes in automatic only, so that's what we can start with. I don't know what the top production Mustang was from that year, so maybe 25th can let us know.

Street lethal, those are some impressive numbers, you may have swayed the bet in my favor on this one.

Orr89RocZ: anything is allowed. Probably the only thing that isn't allowed is a complete motor and/or tranny swap. I likely could have argued the point myself if there were more "rules" to this, but that's exactly the reason I'm posting the question: there are too many variables to consider on my own.

TRAXION

You don't need to upgrade the suspension or rearend to run fast in a thirdgen. What you need is a good intake, good heads, a good cam, and high stall converter. Power is made in the heads. Don't wimp out there and you'll be good. I see too many combos with crap heads and good 'other' parts run crappy times. Trick Flow? Whatever. Better get those things custom ported bigtime in order to make really good power. They are fine if you want to run 12's. Push power higher and, IMHO, they need some major work.

Ported AFR Heads w/ good springs = 2000
Cam = 250 (pick the right one!)
Intake (HSR) = 500
Injectors = 300
Converter w/ shift Kit = 800
Pushrods and Rockers = 350
Long Tubes = 400
Cutouts = 50
Custom chip = 200 (DIY)

There's your recipe for 11's without weight reduction for ~$5000 ... not including any installation fees or gaskets/materials.

I spent more but I added a lot of stuff that I didn't need to add ... because I was going with the total package. For the record, I have no doubt my car would have gone 11.3-11.4 with a tight transmission and a higher stall converter (the transmission had never ever been rebuilt).

Tim

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

yeah i would like to think the 350 start would be best....... as that can be stroked to gain cubes and have a bigger advantage over the stang 302 possibly 347 stroker.....

i dont think a 700r4 would handle a high stall/close to 500hp motor. maybe for a few passes but thats bout it. but i guess it only takes one good pass to prove a point.......

F-Bobby

ok well i wanna ask one thing, How many times do you have to run these things down the track? Cause it it only has to get down the track once just to prove its faster then you can do what ever you want to the car as long as you think itll actually hold together for 11 or so seconds.

For the chevy. assuming you do all this your self.
Pull the 350, bore and stroke it to a 383, should cost ya less then a grand, dont have to do any crazy forged internals or crazy cranks. something simple yet effective.
AFR heads 195 CC should do it, another 1200 ,
SLP or Edelbrock TPI runners 250$?
Port the intake 300$? at a shop
some half decent long tubed headers (300$)
4.10's, 200$,
700R4 with a corvette servo to eliminate the 4th gear lockout at WOT, a SHift kit, pick which ever is the best. prolly another 400$ there,
3000 Stall converter 300$?
some nice meaty tires, 275 BFG drag radials, on the stock wheels. (assuming 16x8) so thats prolly another 300$.
that leaves you with just under 1000$ for suspension so put some LCAs, some good drag spings and shocks, so itll hook
strip the **** out of the car. take everything out you dont need. no power steering etc. so you should be able to get the car down to 3000 even with a driver .

i think you coudl easily get a mid 11 second pass out of that setup with a good driver. But im no race car builder so i could have it all wrong.

ShiftyCapone

iTrader: (7)

You will be hard pressed to to create a 383 for under $1000. You would be better off spending the $600 or so on another induction to get rid of the TPI (stealthram, miniram, etc ect). Machine work and block prep alone can run you $1000. A rear end rebuild is also typically more than $200. You will spend over $100 just for bearings and shims.

$5000 will take you a lot farther if you can do most of the work yourself. If not you will need a few thousand more for labor.

CaysE

I'm assuming we can do all the installs ourselves, so labor is out, except for more specific jobs like blueprinting, decking, honing, etc.

F-Bobby

well are we assuming that each of these cars is brand new? if so, you wont need to change the bearings in the rear end.

and my engine was bored .030 over for 300$ so there isnt much more to do then that. assuming you assemble it your self.

ShiftyCapone

iTrader: (7)

Bingo. Most people won't assemble their own engine other than maybe the top end.

They are better off keeping the displacement they have now. The car has other weak links that the 5 grand needs to go in. Chip work should also be in the list or at the least a lengthly dyno tune session.

Well both cars aren't new and you can't reuse certian rear end parts even if they have zero miles on them. Once they are installed and set-up most everything minus the pinion and ring gear should be replaced the next time they come out.

Five grand should be enough to get an L98 into the 11's but that is only assuming you have every tool and know how to do the work yourself. It is not going to be easy and certian old school methods may have to come into play. There are plenty of L98 modders whose $5k investment didn't get them into the 11's.

Don't forget that you will need a cam, timing chain, gaskets (that is about $100 right there), oil pump, fuel pump, thorttle body, injectors etc etc. That is over 1.5k right there.

lilbowilson

iTrader: (2)

25thmustang please send us some links of some modded mustangs running 10s or 11s with stock rear ends and trannys.
Because right now I believe that the 350s displacement modded with $5000 will win this race.

I need to see more modded mustangs an your the mustang fan here so I know you'll know where to look.

88 350 tpi formula

iTrader: (9)

even if someone did this I doubt it would please anyone (me for one ) there is almost an endless list combos for both cars and what ever the out come there is always going to be a "well, they sould have"

I don't see a problem making the power and running slicks in both but, keeping it from destroying the eng. or drive line is another story

25thmustang

My friends dont post on the internet really... Too much BS floating around and they spend their time at the track...

The 9 second stock T5 car was impressive and there were videos online of the car going 9.8s I believe. This was a while back, and the tranny was dropped for a Gforce T5.

The 10 second cars are guys I raced with, and most have been replaced for better trannies. Anyone smart wont run a T5 much more than mid 11s, but if were talking budget it can be done. MOST guys who blow T5s up, are running really hard clutches, and this is what does it. I for one run a weak clutch (the cars only as strong as the weakest link) and my T5 is fine, as well as others I know!

Id search around for links, but a lot of the stuff I say is stuff I see at the track, not online, and the 9 second stuff was well over a year ago!

I would think if it was so easy to go fast in an Fbody (bang for buck) there would be more of them at the track, and more on the street. I rarely if ever see them, and when Ido they arent fast (saw a low 14s high 13 second dedicated 305 race car the other day).

I for one wont lose sleep over this argument, and cant even really say the combo Id go with as most of my money would go for machine work and the right parts, but I can say you can go very fast for very cheap in either, I for one just feel its a bit cheaper in a 5.0!

brodyscamaro

It's no surprise most of the people that disagree with you (us) won't ever see a 12sec timeslip. What don't yall get? Mustangs aren't all over dragstrips across America becuase people want to be like everybody else. They're everywhere for the very reason that 25th and I are right about this debate, you can go faster for cheaper. Hands down. Get over it third-gen guys. I'm not saying which car is better, because even if one was clearly the winner in all categories, it's still perfectly okay to like the other more. But in this arguement, the Mustang wins. Most of the fastest street cars at most every quarter mile track in the US are fox-body stangs for a reason

Dizturbed One

The fact is... A 350 1LE car vs. a 5.0 GT isn't even really an actual comparison to me

NUMBER ONE

You're going auto vs. manual trans

NUMBER TWO

the 350 has a 48 cubic inch displacement advantage... :/ That's a bit more than a 200 lb advantage to me

That's not really comparing anything but the frame to me.

ESPECIALLY with everyone talking about motor swaps and the such on the Fbody... But I have not seen one person talk about a 351W swap into the fox body to even it out (which could be done for 5 grand)

A 305 5-speed vs. a 5.0 5-speed is an actual COMPARISON

But if you're talking about your buddy just trying to say his 5.0 would spank any Camaro with 5 grand in it then whatever... Most are right in saying that the Camaro would lay the smack down if built right.

STILL hard to say though, the fox body has alot of advantages. (not having to modify the drivetrain behind the motor much, a couple hundred lbs, lower cost to mod)

nick418

Also the FOX body has a More More aftermarket and cheaper then 3rd gens...... SO it aint really that fair

brodyscamaro

explain.

lilbowilson

iTrader: (2)

(Also the FOX body has a More More aftermarket and cheaper then 3rd gens...... SO it aint really that fair)

That is not true! There is only one item that I can see thats cheaper for the mustang an thats a throttle body. Other than that inakes are just as high, injectors, exhaust, cams, and etc. There just as many aftermarket venders for thrid gens as for Foxbodies. An all their prices are in the same ball park for both cars. Pick up any catalog and see for yourself!
That might have been true in the passed but not anymore!

brodyscamaro

What about suspension and other parts of the car?

lilbowilson

iTrader: (2)

Shocks same prices, subframe connectors different brands for both from $100 to $350, axles many diff brands same prices, differentials same, gears same, tranny same, tour brace same.
Actually you can even make a debate saying that our third gens have even more aftermarket venders now!

Summit and Jegs have all the name brand vendors and all make parts for both cars but what about all the vendors you don't here about that make the same parts. I found atleast 3 more companies online that make control arms, panhard bars, torque arms, tour braces, and subframes for thirdgens also 4th.

Don't even get me started about the many different transmission companies that make their own performance trannies.
Fact is GM is the biggest car manufacture in the World and it also helps that you can use most of these parts on 3rd and 4th gens an even other GM cars. Thats 20 years of F-body!

The same can't be said about Mustangs though!

F-Bobby

since when does actual cubic inches of displacment have ANYTHING to do with actual horsepower. You can get an olds 403 from a 70s trans am that will still lose to a bone stock 5.0 mustang, and that thing has over 100 more CI. CI has NOTHING to do with power. Its al how you make use of what it has.

CaysE

The comparison is 92 MUSTANG VS 92 CAMARO. For the billionth time. Take the fastest one from each model and throw 5 grand at both. This is the argument. And like everyone says, displacement has to be used properly. Everyone knows a 305 has NOTHING over a 302.

Street Lethal

iTrader: (16)

Are you implying that the Mustang's 200-lb weight advantage, is better than the Camaro's additional 48 cubic inch TORQUE advantage?

The Camaro could reduce it's weight by throwing on a notchback, and fiberglass hood.... and still make MORE torque than the Mustang's 302 ever will.

Light makes might, but torque wins races... and it's cubic inches that make the torque.

... and please, let's not get into "The Mustang could throw in a 351", because the Camaro can also throw in a 454 Motown small block.; or, "The Mustang could throw in a 460 Big Block", because the Camaro can also throw in a 572 Big Block. And on and on and on.

We're talking 302 VS 350 here, and the camaro can always shed a little weight, but the Mustang cannot magically make additional torque to catch the L98's advantage, because it's simply not there to begin with, and whatever you can add to the 302 (as far as power adder's go), you can also add to the 350 as well.

Street Lethal

iTrader: (16)

Allow me to re-paraphrase this for you by dropping the "er", "you can go fast, for cheap!"

Face the fact....

I mean jeez, the freaking car's even came with a hold up rod for the hood. Talk about cheap! By the way, what were the sticker prices of each car back then? Hmm, maybe this is the reasoning behind the bigger market for the Mustang!

You'll find more people shopping in a flea market, then you will at the local mall!

TRAXION

I don't know. I would say area under the torque curve win races. The TPI has more torque than an LT1 but the LT1 wiped up the TPI when it came out. A nice flat torque curve is sweet.

Tim

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

LT1 also had 50 more HP

Street Lethal

iTrader: (16)

It sure is....

Just for conversation purposes, take a peek at this LS1's trap speed after making it's ten second pass.

Although the L98 next to it wins, this is a fine example of what torque actually does.

Click Here

CaysE

Just to re-iterate, these mods cost money, and would have to come from the $5g budget. You could swap in a 454 or whatever, but that takes away from the point of comparing two cars from that year, which is why I suggested that motor and tranny swaps are the only things not allowed. You're not gonna put in a 454 for 5 grand anyway.

Street Lethal

iTrader: (16)

I never said that you could, otherwise I wouldn't of even bothered throwing parts towards the L98 for under five grand.

I said what I did, because I'm sure this would have eventually turned into a swapping motors thread...

Bottom line; "There's no substitute for cubic inches", except maybe for cubic money.... and even then, cubic money can also be applied to cubic inches. Bigger will always be better.

Incidently, I put in my own 454 for less than one thousand. I'm sure there are some naturally aspirated 302's out there with some unblievable mods that can beat me at the track, but from stop light to stop light? Not a chance....

25thmustang

I have seen street driven 2800 lb Mustangs out there, and that is somewhere NO Fbody will get down to without being gutted beyond belief and tons of fiberglass parts. My dads without him in it weighs 2800 and has a cage, subframes, and such... This is full interior and just a fiberglass hood (still has iron heads). As far as torque, I would go out there trying to win with torque, I would build a high revving 302. I have seen 7000 RPM 302s run low 10s with H/C/I comboes, they even have a class dedicated to it (a few actually in each Mustang racing league).

Again, I will say it still is cheaper to go fast in a 5.0 Mustang than an Fbody, and if this didnt hold true I would expect to see more Fbodies anywhere (local hang outs, track, dynoes, etc...). I see a LOT of 4th gens but rarely any 3rd gens, and I dont even recall any memorable ones, minus one turboed 350 car that ran mid to low 12s from a few years back!

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

thats the thing that gets me... is that i see TONS of STANGs of all years racing at the track but alot of them arent any better than 13s.

i dont see many thirdgens at all and only a few 4th gens, but some of these cars are pretty quick

its a sad thing but mustangs are more popular and that helps alot with the aftermarket and makes it easier to go faster.

350 vs 302 is close but the mustang does go faster for less. its mainly cuz the wieght issue.

compare the L98 Vettes vs the Mustang 5.0 and see whats up. manual to manual, weight to weight its about the same. that would be a nice comparison

nick418

a L98 Auto Fbody vs a 302 5 speed is a great match. A L98 Vette will (esp 87 and up with alum heads with a ZF 6 sp) Will always beat a 5.0 stock vs Stock

brodyscamaro

Yah!!! Vette vs Mustang, great comparison

lilbowilson

iTrader: (2)

(I have seen street driven 2800 lb Mustangs out there)

25THMustang
Please tell me how a 92 Mustang can lose 400lbs without being gutted beyond belief and tons of fiberglass parts. What was taken away to lose the pounds?



thats the thing that gets me... is that i see TONS of STANGs of all years racing at the track but alot of them arent any better than 13s.



I've seen many 92 stock manual mustangs lose to family cars!

brodyscamaro

Oh G0D no!!!!

Was this part of the original argument?

It’s not.

Not where I live.

brodyscamaro

This might be true, but even if it is, it's the half-truth. There's also a ****load that are much much faster. Most of them I see run in the 12s.

25thmustang

For one not all Mustangs weigh 3200 lbs, thats a full weight optioned GT. My friends notch weighed in at 3050 lbs with him in it and all he took out was the spare, and sway bar (a total of maybe 60-70 lbs). My car with me in it weighs 3150 with the spare and sway bar out... These cars are not heavy and are a bunch lighter than an Fbody.

I too have seen some 15 second Mustangs, and even my stock auto ran that at the track, but I have also seen low 14 second bone stock cars, and even seen some high 13s with a mod or two! For every bad example theres a good one, my thing is I dont see enough Fbodys (3rd gens) to have good or bad examples, there arent really any examples!