jms

iTrader: (1)

My opinion on this issue is different from yours.

Ever try to bolt a 455 Olds intake on a 350 (or 330) Olds engine?

It won't fit.

The heads will fit but the 455, early 400 (not late '70s 403 which is considered a small-block), and 425 blocks are considerably larger than the "small-block" 330, 350 and later '70s 403 Olds.

I don't have enough experience with the late 307 Olds to say it is a true small-block or similar to the Pontiac 301.

Pontiac does not have a small-block/big-block although some argue the 301 issue (I just consider the 301 a bastardized spin-off of the other Pontiac engines).

Just my opinion.

jms

vejatabul

deck hight has nothing to do with a engine being a big block.

odddoylerules,
anylogys are for people who dont understand concepts, or have trouble with understanding concepts in relation to reality. i dont need your anylogy because there is no direct coralation and i understand the idea of hp and its relation to torque. i gave you the facts. i gave you the meaning of horsepower and torque. i thourghly explained it. if torque can make something fast, then explain how an electric motor can be fast. they make max tq at zero rpm and max hp at max rpm. tq is how much force there is behind something and hp is how fast that force is applied.

stu,
a car will only trap higher if it has the hp to trap that speed. there is no "magical" phenomenom where if you spin the tires real hard you can do outragous trap speeds. basicly the car is able to put more hp down while it is spinning than it can while it is not at full throttle or when it is bogging. if you have a car that spins and you get the car to hook up with out sacraficing throttle angle and rpm, the car will go faster.

ShiftyCapone

iTrader: (7)

You will have a faster ET if there is a little tire spin all the way down the track. Top fuel cars never reach full traction. There is tire slip the entire 1320. I know that is an extreme example but this applies to every car no matter how slow it is.

jms

iTrader: (1)

When one block is physically larger than another, then by definition, one has to be smaller.

The smaller engines-size and cubic inch wise- (330 then later, in 1968 the 350) were designed for the smaller (at the time) cars.

The bigger engines-size and cubic inch wise-were destined for the bigger cars.

When the bigger cars' engines were transplanted into the smaller cars, that is when the legends really took off.

Perhaps you are using the Mopar line of thought concerning the rb versions of the 383 family where the 413, 426 (wedge-yeah, the hemi also) and 440, etc. are raised block (rb) also known as tall block, tall deck, etc.

I can see your reasoning but at the time Oldsmobile considered them big and small blocks.

jms

vejatabul

there is a standard deck hight big block chevy. there is also a tall deck version of the big block chevy that was used in truck applications. is one a big block chevy and the other a bigger block chevy? no. they are big block chevy motors. you can not use logic alone to identify a product when a certian amount of knowledge of the process of distinguishing different products come into play.


shifty,
consider exacty what you are saying. if a car is losing traction it is using an amount of its hp to spin the tires instead of to propell the car forward. if, for example, a car uses 25hp of its total horsepower to spin the wheels, then that would be 25hp that it would not be using to move the car forward. if it were not spinning and it were using that 25hp to accelerate, it would run a mph and et that more closly reflected its power output. think of it in a way of an external source pushing the car, such as a group of people. if less force were used to push the car because of the peoples feet slipping on the pavement, the car would be pushed at a slower rate of speed than if the group of peoples feet were not slipping and they were using all of there ability to push the car rather than thier feet sliding on the pavement. this is the easiest anylogy i can think of to understand this concept. it would be obsurd to say that if you use less of your ability to move a vehicle down the track that the vehicle would be faster to reach its destination.
if two cars with the same amount of hp and the same weight were to make passes down the track and one of the cars spun its tires and the other car did not and both were able to give thier cars 100% throttle, then the car who did not spin would not only reach the end of the track sooner, but it would also be traveling at a higher rate of speed when it reached the end of the track.

if you can reach the end of a track quicker and at a faster trap speed by spinning your tires, then why dont we all quit investing in thousands of dollars worth of suspension modifications and why dont i stop buying slicks and drag radials to get my car to hook up? why dont i start useing cheap pep-boys tires since by your logic i will go faster? because what you are saying is false.

when i took my camaro to the track for the first time in 4 years, i first made a pass with no burnout. i simply got to the lights, and when it was time i hammered the throttle. i didnt feather it, i didnt lift. i just stomped it and waited for it to stop spinning. i went a 8.42@ 82mph with a 2.03 60' on drag radials with 22psi of pressure. by doing a burnout and changing nothing else i got the car to go a 7.99@85.2 on a 1.69 60' within six passes. every time i got a quicker 60', the mph and et improved. this happens with every car. imagine now how quick a top fuel car would be if it was able to hook up and didnot spin its tires.............

3.492rs

thats cause u can't build motors. my motor shouldn't have broke off 2 lobes after 1200 miles dumba$$ (never went past 6 grand) oh ya those are 96 ta dyno graph ur 94 only gets 275 at the fly

odddoylerules

"In a fight, you can either knock someone out with a few blows, or just hit em lots and the blows will start to add up. Horsepower is how fast you are hitting, torque is how hard each blow is. If you were trying to say exert 100 lbs of force on somthing, you could exert 100lbs of force once, 25lbs of force 4 times, or 1 lb of force 100 times."

"tq is how much force there is behind something and hp is how fast that force is applied."

sounds like were saying pretty much the same thing.

And to whoever thinks that theres no oldsmobile big blocks, thats just funny. Just try getting some headers for a 350 to work on your 455 cutlass. There are different applications for the different size motors because THE MOTORS ARENT THE SAME.

You may be able to make the arguement that a 350 pontiac is a big block or that the pontiac 455 is a small block or whatever, but that same arguement cannot be made for olds engines. Get a olds 350 powered car next to a big block car, and pop the hood. you will SEE the difference between them.

albeit many people thought my 350 olds was a big block just because the intake manifold was so wide, compared to a 350 chevy. compared to a 455 manifold, it is say 3 or 4 inches narrower.

and vegetable, or whatever your name is, are you just like 84l69ta's ******* friend or what? yeah. if you get pep boys tires and spin em you'll go faster. Thats not what he was trying to say. If you have lots of power and you spin a lot off the line then you'll have a high trap speed for your et, since once the car hooked up it would really start pulling.

A lot of you guys seem awfully hostile, like you get off on being a dick about being right. I apologise for calling you guys dicks in an earlier post, and then you go and prove that I was right in the first place.

"anylogys are for people who dont understand concepts, or have trouble with understanding concepts in relation to reality. i dont need your anylogy because there is no direct coralation "

sounds like my analogy was apt. I think it demonstrates that I understand the concept thoroughly. In fact, i understand it thouroughly enough that I can explain it effectively in a manner that is simple enough for a child to understand. Just because you dig being technical doesnt make the rest of us dumb.

GodSpeedGTA

iTrader: (1)

[QUOTE]Originally posted by odddoylerules
[B]"In a fight, you can either knock someone out with a few blows, or just hit em lots and the blows will start to add up. Horsepower is how fast you are hitting, torque is how hard each blow is. If you were trying to say exert 100 lbs of force on somthing, you could exert 100lbs of force once, 25lbs of force 4 times, or 1 lb of force 100 times."

"tq is how much force there is behind something and hp is how fast that force is applied."

sounds like were saying pretty much the same thing.

And to whoever thinks that theres no oldsmobile big blocks, thats just funny. Just try getting some headers for a 350 to work on your 455 cutlass. There are different applications for the different size motors because THE MOTORS ARENT THE SAME.

You may be able to make the arguement that a 350 pontiac is a big block or that the pontiac 455 is a small block or whatever, but that same arguement cannot be made for olds engines. Get a olds 350 powered car next to a big block car, and pop the hood. you will SEE the difference between them.

albeit many people thought my 350 olds was a big block just because the intake manifold was so wide, compared to a 350 chevy. compared to a 455 manifold, it is say 3 or 4 inches narrower.

and vegetable, or whatever your name is, are you just like 84l69ta's ******* friend or what? yeah. if you get pep boys tires and spin em you'll go faster. Thats not what he was trying to say. If you have lots of power and you spin a lot off the line then you'll have a high trap speed for your et, since once the car hooked up it would really start pulling.

A lot of you guys seem awfully hostile, like you get off on being a dick about being right. I apologise for calling you guys dicks in an earlier post, and then you go and prove that I was right in the first place.

"anylogys are for people who dont understand concepts, or have trouble with understanding concepts in relation to reality. i dont need your anylogy because there is no direct coralation "

sounds like my analogy was apt. I think it demonstrates that I understand the concept thoroughly. In fact, i understand it thouroughly enough that I can explain it effectively in a manner that is simple enough for a child to understand. Just because you dig being technical doesnt make the rest of us dumb.

CAN I GET AN AMEN???


AMEN

yeah so basically torque is worthless

vejatabul

"In a fight, you can either knock someone out with a few blows, or just hit em lots and the blows will start to add up. Horsepower is how fast you are hitting, torque is how hard each blow is. If you were trying to say exert 100 lbs of force on somthing, you could exert 100lbs of force once, 25lbs of force 4 times, or 1 lb of force 100 times."

if you exert 25lbs of tq once, twice or a thousand times you are exerting 25lbs of force multiple times. if you exert 1lb of force in any amount of multiples, you are still only exerting 1lb of torque. to hit something with 25lbs of force 4 times means that you hit something with 25lbs of force 4 times, not 100lbs of force 1 time. you cannot add the amounts of torque you applied to something at different times to have a sum of force applied.

I'm not going to personally attack you here because I have a point to make. Torque is rotational force. HP is tq over time.

your analogy is incorrect because torque IS NOT TIME BASED. meaning not related to time.
so if you were to punch slower or faster, that would be hp, because torque aplied over an amount of time is hp.
even if it is applied only once, and even if it is applied in the tinyest fraction of a second, it is still applied over an amount of time. that is hp. torque applied over an amount of time, regaurdless of how long or short that amount of time is hp. you have to understand that for torque to be applied, it must have some amount of time in witch it is applied. torque is not an amount of force over time or an amount of force aplied in different amounts, over an larger or smaller amount of time, as your anylogy suggests. you are incapable of understanding this concept because you are fighting it instead of trying to see what is fact.

the different olds motors are only different in that they have differnt deck hights. thats why a set of headers wont work.

once again deck hight does not determine if a motor is a big or small block.

"and vegetable, or whatever your name is, are you just like 84l69ta's ******* friend or what? yeah. if you get pep boys tires and spin em you'll go faster. Thats not what he was trying to say. If you have lots of power and you spin a lot off the line then you'll have a high trap speed for your et, since once the car hooked up it would really start pulling."

oh is that how it works? so if your car is not pulling hard because it is spinning, and then all the sudden it does pull hard when it stops spinning, you are going to reach a higher mph than the other car over the same amount of space?
you are really not thinking clearly here......

so in the time that the other car is accelerating and not spinning, it wont gain an amount of distance on your car that is spinning? mph is distance over time.

each revolution of a tire that is say, 60 inches in diameter, will cover 60 inches of distance. so if a tire is not using its entire diameter to cover distance it will not accelerate as fast as one that does.

you're telling me that you believe that if a car is not using its total amount of hp avalible that it will get to a higher mph in a shorter distance?
if you are not using 50hp of your engines potential because it is spinning, then you will not have full potential of your motor accelerating the car. try slipping the clutch on a manual transmission car for the first 50ft while the other car is accelerating down the track and then you will see what im talking about.
or you can let a stock ls1 spin the tires for 50 feet and see the 13.6 et and the 102mph with a 2.3 60 foot. then put a 3500stall in the car and a set of slicks and and run a 12.2 at 110mph and with a 1.55 60 foot. same car with the same amount of hp going quicker and faster when it hooks up.
i told you what happened in my car when i let the tires spin with my 3200rpm converter and 3.27 gears. then the time i ran with my car hooking up.

just stop thinking that what all those idiots told you was correct. they never thought about the concepts and the physics behind acceleration. they never put alot of thought into what they were claiming. they saw something and made a broad generalization about it and then the myth spread. dont be a fool just because the people that came before you were ignorant......

vejatabul

"yeah so basically torque is worthless "

i never said torque was worthless. you shouldnt make assumptions.

with out torque there would be no horsepower. but with out horsepower torque would not be able to acomplish anything.

torque is nothing without an amount of time for it to do the work that it is intended to do. torque used in an amount of time is hp.

hp= 33,000 pound feet of torque per minute.

see?

odddoylerules

1) "your analogy is incorrect because torque IS NOT TIME BASED. meaning not related to time.
so if you were to punch slower or faster, that would be hp, because torque aplied over an amount of time is hp. "

In my analogy I say "Horsepower is how fast you are hitting, torque is how hard each blow is. If you were trying to say exert 100 lbs of force on somthing, you could exert 100lbs of force once(ed: High Torque), 25lbs of force 4 times, or 1 lb of force 100 times.(ed: Low torque)"

You may be getting a different kind of beating, but a beating is still a beating. the same force (hp) (tq x rpm) can be achieved through either a low tq x high rpm, or high tq x lower rpm.

2) "and vegetable, or whatever your name is, are you just like 84l69ta's ******* friend or what? yeah. if you get pep boys tires and spin em you'll go faster. Thats not what he was trying to say. If you have lots of power and you spin a lot off the line then you'll have a high trap speed for your et, since once the car hooked up it would really start pulling."

"oh is that how it works? so if your car is not pulling hard because it is spinning, and then all the sudden it does pull hard when it stops spinning, you are going to reach a higher mph than the other car over the same amount of space?
you are really not thinking clearly here......"

ok where to start on this one. lets make it blatantly clear with a ridiculous example. you stage your 13 second car, and when the light turns green you do a burnout for 3 seconds. Now this run your 13 second car will run a 16, but your trap speed will be way high for a 16 second run.
So if you lined up with a 16 second honda in this race, and he took off not spinning his tires, and you wasted time doing your ridiculous burnout, once you started running him down, you would have to run a higher trap speed to equal his ET.

now this is a far fetched example, but I think it clearly illustrates my point.

you say:
so in the time that the other car is accelerating and not spinning, it wont gain an amount of distance on your car that is spinning? mph is distance over time.
(ed: yes, it will. the car not spinning its tires will take off. but then for the car that is spinning its tires to run an identical et, he must have more horsepower and therefore more mph to catch up.)

each revolution of a tire that is say, 60 inches in diameter, will cover 60 inches of distance. so if a tire is not using its entire diameter to cover distance it will not accelerate as fast as one that does."

Sounds about right. I'm not trying to argue that a powerful car will not run faster when optimized for traction, but IF you are spinning your tires a lot then your MPH will be high for the ET you run because you wasted so much time burning rubber.

Inwo

I don't want to have to lock another post. Keep the insults off the board.

Are you guys even discussing the same thing?

odddoylerules

lol i dont even know dude. As fun as this all has been, this thread HAS gotten a little off topic... we can keep it clean though. sorry about all that.

vejatabul

you are having a problem with sarcasm and questions.

((2) "and vegetable, or whatever your name is, are you just like 84l69ta's ******* friend or what? yeah. if you get pep boys tires and spin em you'll go faster. Thats not what he was trying to say. If you have lots of power and you spin a lot off the line then you'll have a high trap speed for your et, since once the car hooked up it would really start pulling."

"oh is that how it works? so if your car is not pulling hard because it is spinning, and then all the sudden it does pull hard when it stops spinning, you are going to reach a higher mph than the other car over the same amount of space?
you are really not thinking clearly here......"

ok where to start on this one. lets make it blatantly clear with a ridiculous example. you stage your 13 second car, and when the light turns green you do a burnout for 3 seconds. Now this run your 13 second car will run a 16, but your trap speed will be way high for a 16 second run.
So if you lined up with a 16 second honda in this race, and he took off not spinning his tires, and you wasted time doing your ridiculous burnout, once you started running him down, you would have to run a higher trap speed to equal his ET.))

then you would only run a trap speed that is equivalant to your hp and wieght.
thanks for agreeing with me.....

((you say:
so in the time that the other car is accelerating and not spinning, it wont gain an amount of distance on your car that is spinning? mph is distance over time.
(ed: yes, it will. the car not spinning its tires will take off. but then for the car that is spinning its tires to run an identical et, he must have more horsepower and therefore more mph to catch up.))

so basicly you are telling me that i am right. it takes hp to run mph and not spinning the tires.
so you agree that spinning your tires will not make your car do more mph than if you were to hook up. ok thanks......


oh and i am not "84l69ta's ******* friend", i think you believe i am an ******* because i am more knowledgeable and i expell my ideas that have thought behind them. ok.
im an *******.

((In my analogy I say "Horsepower is how fast you are hitting, torque is how hard each blow is. If you were trying to say exert 100 lbs of force on somthing, you could exert 100lbs of force once(ed: High Torque), 25lbs of force 4 times, or 1 lb of force 100 times.(ed: Low torque)" ))

ok i killed this analogy.... read again.....

i said....
if you exert 25lbs of tq once, twice or a thousand times you are exerting 25lbs of force multiple times. if you exert 1lb of force in any amount of multiples, you are still only exerting 1lb of torque. to hit something with 25lbs of force 4 times means that you hit something with 25lbs of force 4 times, not 100lbs of force 1 time. you cannot add the amounts of torque you applied to something at different times to have a sum of force applied.

1.turn on your ceiling fan.
2. put your hand in front of it.
3.watch closly as it does not move. torque is being aplied, but no rotaion. it has rotaional force, but does not move. this is torque. torque is not movment. torque is force.

you have experianced torque. no work is being done. no rotation.

4. let it turn.
now it rotates. this is horsepower.

you have experianced horsepower. work is being done. there is force and there is an amount of time involved in the rotations taking place.

now remember that an electric motor makes max tq at zero rpm. it makes max hp at max rpm.
how much work can be done at zero rpm? none.
how fast of a rotation can be achived at zero rpm? none.

now how fast can the fan rotate at max rpm?

it depends on how much horsepower it makes. the more hp the quicker it can rotate.

now imagine the fan is a car tire. it will rotate faster with more hp. the faster it rotates, the more distance it covers and the more mph it is able to achive.

horsepower makes the car fast. not torque. horsepower is torque being used. torque is only force and cannot be used without time. once it has time, it is not torque, it is horsepower.

horsepower makes a car fast.

the end.

84L69TA

Odddoylerules: I think you should keep it clean. In none of my posts did I use any profanity. I still believe you dont really have any idea what youre talking about.And finally, to return the foul language back to you.....you sir, are the *******.

Oddoylerules=