anondude13

I haven't seen many (any) of them in cars that are primarily for the street. You'd need a lot of cam and yes, something a lot better than vortecs.

ljnowell

My brother had one that made over 520 at the crank, so that is well around that range. It was running through a th350 and a 8.5 10 bolt, at least thats what I think was stock in 73. It would haul some major ***, but it wasnt the most comfortable thing to drive. To someone like me, thats ok, I dont mind it. Personally I kind of prefer it, keeps me in touch with my driving.

crazy3rdgen

iTrader: (1)

well hell.. as long as my bottom end is good heads are always changeable.. but i kno i should hit 400

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

yeah, build a real solid bottom end to handle the revs and power. forged stuff. 400hp on crank is easy. at the wheels it is alot of power, and still a challenge. thats like 500 on the crank. gonna need a victor like intake for carb or miniram for fuel injection. gonna need a big bumpstick and good tunning to get it to run. its gonna be real hard to get that power on vortecs, so my advice is to save up for some good heads. you can get some cheaper iron eagles 215cc/ 235cc or whatever and port the crap out of them to gain better flow or spend the dollar on AFR's, Pro 1's, Track 1's, or whatever.

Rick King

OK lots will say this is bull -- but I know it is true-- a stock GM bottom end will hold 500 hp at the crank it needs to be balanced and lots of machining- it is done with blowers by lots of people, however I belive that I would not do this -- I've seen it done! it's scarry in my opion.

You can do this with the vortec heads they flow about as well as brodox up to .500. With a supercharger your motor will become more efficent--I would get a MSD 6al for the spark--Make sure you buy good felpro gaskets-- I have ones laying around that are 35 a pop for a head--for a tranny I would use a powerglide with 1.82 1st gear or a th 400 , as for converting to an adjustible forur link I would have a fram shop put it in--however you might do fine with adjustable control arms for your car as the aftermarket 4 link will be about a grand before shocks and install also if you go aftermarket I would tub the car for bigger tires. I would stick my money int the rear end and the bottom end of the motor.

later and

GB

rick

klumb15

iTrader: (1)

well now your talking about a complete rebuild pretty much....if a 4 link is gonna cost a grand...FORGET THAT....maybe I should just find an older 350 and start wrenchin on that...does that sound like a good idea? whats a price range if I were to buy an older 350 and start building it up for around 400-450 crankHP with a blower(B&M 144)?

Rick King

Hey --if I was going to put a blower on and use a stock gm bottom end I would suggest that you have the bottom end interlaly balanced.. Stay away from powered rods--- try to get a gm steel crank and rods ("x" and/or "o" rods also known as pink rods) Try looking in hot rod the mag or do a search for power house they are a speed shop in soca that may be able to hook u up with a quality bottom end for a great price--I would use the vortec heads and a 6-71 blower if you have the money--I to would scrap the four link Idea and just get adjustable control arms for you car

price range dependes on how much youwant to spend-- take that stock motor for $400 from a junk yard some good flowing new heads with 70 cc for around $800 drop on you $1300 blower and a new cam and timming chain/gears $200 and then your carb and gasketsabout $400 (do not skimp on head gaskets). New bearings $90,new oil pump and shaft $40==totals are just a guestamation

total with heads=$3300

with out heads=$2500

good luck and

GB

rick

klumb15

iTrader: (1)

that ain't bad i guess....if i went to the junkyard, or got a 350 off my buddy, would I want to go through a complete rebuild like boiling the block, blueprinting, honing and all of that crap?? also is there a certain year of 350 I should look for if i go this route(roller/flat tappet)?so which blower should I go with, the little 144 or go for the 6-71?the 6-71 is gonna give me tons of power won't it?

klumb15

iTrader: (1)

i just looked at that 6-71...WOW that thing is huge...I don't have a chance fittin that under a SS hood....do I even have a chance with the 144??? can the 6-71 fit under a 4inch cowl hood? is that 6-71 overhill for my HP goal, or should I just say Fu ck it and go big and start puttin money into this engine, and put it in my camaro in like 2 years after i get outta college?? how does that idea sound, start getting my car ready for this badass engine, then when the time comes, i can just throw that engine in....

Rick King

how does that idea sound, start getting my car ready for this badass engine, then when the time comes, i can just throw that engine in.... great catching on!!

best thing you could do at this point--new rear control arms adjustible and racing shocks 50/50 rear and 90/10 up frount

then build your motor in what ever fashiion you want
consider a big block a 454 can be stroked to 496 and give impressive #'s at lower r's

later and
GB

rick

klumb15

iTrader: (1)

hahahaha...i suppose, if i do this, i mines as well go all out hey......is it anymore to build up a big block than a small block, or are the parts aboutt he same price??then i'm conisering switchin to a 9inch too..i'll post another thread about that...but back to the motor, i still need an answer for the boiling, honing, etc etc question...also what tranny would i have to run???TH400 for a big block or what?just outta curiousity, how easy is it to get around a big block in a 3rd gen? is there still a good amount of room in there?

Rick King

I will not build up another small block-- I have a $8000 dollar 327 you can have it for $4200 it screems, with A big block you do not have to rev as high to make the same power as a small block--and there is no replacement for displacement--manchine work on the heads is about the same.

later a nd

GB

rick

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

the lt4 rods known as powdered metal rods have been used in the zz4 engines for applications over 6000rpm and 450hp. i wouldnt got that high personally but alot have done it without problems.

Rick King

you are right now compound that with boost = higher comprission = failure--I have see those rods fail a lot easier than old gm steel
go to the races


rick

klumb15

iTrader: (1)

yea i would never build a small block that revs that high..they sound like they are gonna blow apart when they get that high, then stuff starts breaking..big blocks are just power houses, heavy duty if you will...they sit at low RPMS and create some mad power....my dad had a built up small block race car that ran 9.98 second quarters and he shifted at 9,000RPMS, when he told me that i almost sh it my pants...that is insane......i think i pretty much decided on this now...i'm gonna keep my FI vette motor for the next few years, and prep my car for this animal...but the thing is that i have an ss hood...and there is no chance off fittin that blower under there....is there any chance of fittin a blown big block under even a 4 inch cowl hood? or do you just stick it right thru the hood?

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

why worry about underhood blowers. just get a centrifigual one. they are so much better, and easier to use. the new blow thru carb setups are amazing. i would go that way. and a 6.71 wont fit under a 4inch. with carbs that is. maybe just alittle poking out with fuel injection setup plates but havent seen one on a thirdgen.

gary sanders

let me tell you ALLsome stuff you may not know,i see some say it is easy to get 400 horse out of a 350.well it is,but let me tell you a REAL easy way.look for a 93 to 96 chevy 1 ton van ,you know the box van,or a i ton truck.the 350,s in these trucks have STEEL rods,and STEEL CRANK,NOT CAST.plus they have windage tray,factory,4 bolt splayed caps,and are machined for roller cams,or for flat tapit.all you have to do to make it roller is to buy from ,SUMMIT RACING the roller kit ,cost 80 dollers,this will hold the cam in the block.or you can use anycam that is not roller.the rods are 5.7 to 6 in ,depending on what year.have steel oil pump shaft ,factory.now the heads are small ,but a good set of vortecs,or after market ,with flat top pistons,and you will have 10.7 to 1 compression!!!can use a big cam in this block ,with no trouble,how do i know?my brother in law works at a dealership,these motors are plentaful in my area.cost?150 dollers needing rebuilt.thats what i used to make my 355.and it is very strong!!! GM knew these motors would be run hard ,so they put the best GM parts they had factory.one last thing ,this block has the place for fuel pump rod,and will fit any 82 to 92 fbody !!!!i bet alot of peolpe didnt know that ,a high peformance block in a van.i have 10 of these blocks,sorry i wont sell a one.but know ya know ,so happy hunting

o i almost forgot,you can tranfer all of your 87 to 92 roller cam parts in to the block ,all the holes are drilled factory,all you need to do is to make sure you use push rods for a roller cam ,if you use roller,or you can use standers length push rods ,if you use a non roller cam

Rick King

sweet info

ljnowell

Factory splayed 4 bolt caps?

ross

Thay also used the four bolt blocks in 2500 and up pickups and no thay are not splayed caps as far as the steel cranks im not sure about all of them but the block I have has a cast crank in it. But I can tell you for a fact in 86-88 marine motors with the four bolt blocks had steel cranks. Woulde not use a marine block unless it was fresh water cooled. And klumb15 if you can spend $1300.00 on a blower you coulde use that money on a setof afr195 heads thay will surtenly put you in the 11s on motor withthe right cam. I have hyd roller specs that uses the factory roller lifters and bone stock shortblock ran 11.80s in my car and ran on 87 oct gas. If the combo had a set of 2256 trw flat tops in it and zero deck the block im sure the car would go at least a tenth faster.As far as powderd metal rods go I have seen alot more two piece rods since thay switched over from the good old x rods in marine motors. And I know every one is going to think im crazy o a lier but I have had a few small blocks and untill recently I have only had two bolt mains and cast cranks and stock rods with good rod-bolts. The motor has never had a failure except for pistons while on nitros. I've gone as fast as 10.80's and with good rods, cast crank, two bolt main I went 9.60's. And there again no failure. I feel unless you're making alot of power you do not need a steel crank or 4-bolt block. But I do look for good core shift in the blocks that I use. But if you really need a 4 bolt main block or a steel crank for a one piece rear main seal email me.

gary sanders

ok ,tryed to help you guys out,but i see you know more about this stuff than me ,so ill keep my 25 plus years of building engines to my self,nope wont give ya any more secretes.YES THEY ARE STEEL CRANKS NOT CAST ,AND A FEW WAS driled with main bolts in a angle,NOW YOU MAY NOT SAY IT A SPLAYED,BUT I DO.
thats why i said happy hunting,CALL GM,S HEAD QUATERS,i bet they will tell you the part no#. on the blocks,that they did produce ,with these caps.they wher very limited production.go ahead make the call,bet ya you will find iits true!!!!!!

and i said 1ton ,not 2500 pickups!!!!!2500 pickups did not have the steel crank,so thats why i said 1ton VAN!!!!3500 VANS,TRUCKS.

ljnowell

Keep your information, most of it is anyway.

gary sanders

B.S,well if you say so,i guess next time you post ill retune the favor

ljnowell

Thanks for returning the favor, although, you posted BS on a known fact that you can find in any book. I guess you made yourself look like a double ***.

gary sanders

i posted BS,because you poste BS ON the post i did ,now you started this ,and im fueling it ,i dont give a crap if the whole site thinks im full of it!!!!
i guess ALL the ones that like to jump on some one has never made a mistake,i guess i was wrong this is a give some one hell site ,not talk about the FBODY ,THAT I HAVE DRIVEN SINCE 1982,WHEN MOST OF YOU WAS CRAPPING YELLOW.

SOLID LIFTER

ahhhhhhhh........what??

ljnowell

I dont want to tick off any mods by posting the story here. I'll send you a PM, and you can read it there.

THEGENERAL

oh well another person that swears they know more than all of us put together....

RaMaiRGoD69

I would say with perfect track conditions @ sea level with no slipping maybe a 12.2 best.... Maybe

ljnowell

if he has 450 he should be running better than low 12s with traction.

RaMaiRGoD69

Thats from my experience.... 450 hp gets you 12s I mean look at the viper 500 hp running 11.85s with a professional driver.
(I could be wrong with that # but I am pretty sure thats what it ran in the contest between the Viper and the GT in car and driver)

So thats the reason I doubt with a thirdgen you will taste 11s, but I am sure there are some hero stories out there.

I will admit my number is fairly conservative, but is not way off.

freestylzz

Doubtfull. I second the low 12's.

klumb15

iTrader: (1)

you ever see a viper take off...they don't exactly grip up the best..thats what hurts it.....i'm sure with the right parts you could potentially get a 3rd gen to grip up better than a viper....also the T56 trans in those vipers aren't geared for 1/4 miles.....they are geared for higher MPH's, thats why they have such a high top speed....i'm talking 450 HP, good traction, and low gearing, it should be able to touch the 11's from what i've read..

ljnowell

Not with good traction. If the engine was put into a stock thirdgen, and slicks bolted up you are right. If the engine was put into a car with properly set up suspension and could hook, then there is no reason that you couldnt see 11's on 450hp.

DON 88T/A

That Viper is turning 11.8's on street tires @about 120+mph (with something like 3.08 gears)...with slicks its a high 10 sec capable car..throw some 4.11's in it too ...ouch.

RaMaiRGoD69

Viper is not 10 second capable with slicks and a gear.

vejatabul

fastest bolt on ls1 currently runs 10.96 and makes 330hp to the wheels. you cant say something cannot be done just because you havnt seen it. i know more than one car that makes right at 400whp and runs in the 10's. david daurbley's 2000 ss camaro ran 9.7 at 145mph making 528whp. if you run a 1.35 60 foot you can do alot with very little power.

RaMaiRGoD69

For a car to run 10 seconds on 330 rwhp everything on that car has to be perfect, with dramatic weight reduction. Now in the Vipers instance I only say I do not see reducing 1/4 mile times by a second with slicks and a gear. Maybe with several other mods, but when a professional driver pulls high 11s I just do not believe a 10 second capable car. (With slicks and a gear)

Last time I was at the strip in Morroco there was a Viper running 13.7s granted it was very hot but at the same time my car was running 13.6s

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

there was one guy with a 92 1LE z28 running 11.70's with a minirammed 383. i bet he had about 450hp

also was another guy running 383 superramed setup in a 86 vette turning 11.3's. i bet he had around 450 as well. so it should be possible to run 11's with that power. just need proper suspension, tires and converter/gears if using auto.

ljnowell

Exactly what I was saying. Everyone cant do it, but it is definately possible for someone that knows what the hell they are doing.

RaMaiRGoD69

These hero stories are very popular.... They start out this one guy. What really matters is what happens at the dragstrip. When you see numerous people with 500+ hp running only mid 11s with slicks and 4 links you will reallize it may be possible to run outrageous times but very unlikely. Most people that advertise running those really good numbers correct there times.

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

those stories are for real cuz i talked to them

i know what his setup was and those were the times he was running. that guy with the vette was shifting 5600rpms or so and that means his power band is about to that point which means a cam that aint too big. it was a solid roller but specs unknown. it sounded good and seemed somewhat docile. LOL but slicks and 4000rpm converter pushed him into the 11.3's. not a bad deal. too bad i dont recall his trap speeds. else i can get a better estimate of power. i think it was a buck high teens. at his race wieght, i would say it was 3300lbs with him in it. so i guess it was around 450hp or so. i havent seen many superram's much over that.

the recent TPI shoot out thread made 480 on trickflow 195's and 288xr cam. i think that guy had a similar combo but his heads i dont know what they were. so 450 is good number to estimate. high 11's in a thirdgen is possible and should go down, with good gears and slicks.

freestylzz

Take these cars and dyno them. Put the numbers on paper and then talk. All I'm hearing is "It might, maybe, should have...... "

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

you can figure out hp from trap speeds.

its not that hard to estimate and its fairly accurate too.

i have gotten pretty good at that and know what combos can produce what numbers

you have a problem realizing that????

freestylzz

No, I don't have a problem realizing that. You got the problem rolling your eyes.

And there's more to figuring out hp from trap speeds

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

no problem then why worry and argue about it?

i was just relaying information that i had seen. it seems to me that 450hp can get 11's. thats all i was saying.

fill me in on what more there is to figuring out horsepower from trap speeds? i am curious. i know most dont take into account gears, and suspension.

i got this program online that says with my trap speed of 96, and wieght i estimated at 3500lbs, it says i got 290flywheel hp. thats a bit high for a header/exhaust L98. LOL i think i got a solid 265hp. it rates that superram 383 vette at 496 if it trapped like 117 and wieghs 3300lbs.. another source says 280ish hp for my L98.

it gets you an idea tho and i know that a 383 superram is capable of making 450hp and thats what i want to run.

DON 88T/A

How is a viper not 10 sec capable when it has the mph to reach 10's...they have 3.08 gears..switch to something like 4.11's..that would pick up and easy 3,4 tenths and mph and a car that already dips into the 11's on STREET tires @ 120+mph,with very good traction with slicks would hit 10's.. slicks can knock off quite a bit of e.t. over street tires..though your mph drops a little....little off topic sorry...but hasn't it been done anyway? I'm not arguing or anything..I'm refering to the new 500 hp/525ft lb viper... hp is not the only factor ...a nice flat torque curve helps alot too....and if it was a new Viper turning 13.7's unless it was 5000ft up and about 120 degrees out...thats some bad driving.
i know they are a bitch to hook up...but still.

Gotta love bench racing

RaMaiRGoD69

Other than the Vipers traction issues... Its aerodynamics are terrible but that is not really too much of a factor while drag racing. However .... At the strip the Viper did not run 13.7s all night he eventually dipped into the high 12s, but by no means was he gonna reach 10s with a gear and slicks. Bad driving... Yes, but he wasnt a bad enough driver to be running that slow.

Therefore I will question the Vipers performance at the strip till I see otherwise.