25thmustang

Its kind of the same thing from my side of the deal. Why would someone buy a heavy, underpowered 305, which is going to cost an arm and a leg to run good at the track, when he could buy a 5.0, and for 1/2 the cost run twice as fasr??? I know it sounds mean, and those guys have their reasons, but think about it that way. Some guys like challenges, and dont just take the easy way out!

pasky

Yes, but your talking about a sports car to begin with mustang. I understand people who like to make slow cars go faster as a hobby, but why the sudden trend?

anondude13

_

pasky

I hate that movie =/.

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

305 with stealth ram, cam and 150shot and your gonning pretty good! it can be cheap. 12's for a 1500 bucks

5.0's are fugly! LOL just kidding, i kinda like them but there is that whole Chevy vs. Ford thing, and i take chevy's side. LOL

nick418

You Can add some things to a 305 so it can move, Yea the 5.0 Mustang is easier and cheaper, but a 305 is much easier and more power then say a Acura Integra/ Honda Civic, i think you know what iam talking about

and just to tell ya , 1991-1992 Z28 305 5 speed came with 230hp and 300lb tq, same as the 225hp 300lb 5.0 mustang, also the 305 had atleast 5 plus hp on it.. Thats stock atleast

stu

You really are clueless if that's what you think. Like EVERY movie ever made, it was made because there was something to make it about. No one in Hollywood is talented enough to create and shape an entire generation of people with a movie that was soley created for entertainment. The people I feel most sorry for who watched that movie are guys like the ones in here. They're so clueless that they wouldn't even notice all the mistakes that the movie made, or more likely, think that movie producers lack of car knowledge reflects that of the knowledge of the real people that the movie is based on. This is kind of a bad example because the movie just happens to be about street racers involved in gang actitivities, but you get what I'm saying. It'd be like if I thought all detectives were stupid for thinking that they could solve a crime in a weeks time, just because that's what happens on CSI Miami.


Further, I don't understand why, for just a lil bit more money, youdon't all go buy Corvettes to start as your platform for going fast. They have a way starting platform and more potential right?

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

its partially true though.

Lots of kids have no knowledge and take that movie to be the shizzle and go out and buy cars like that. I seen it. I was in highschool during the time that movie came out. within the next year, R icers were EVERYWHERE. all you heard was buzzing 4 bangers and altezza lights. big wings and body kits. Import tuner television shows werent on tv till after that movie started the "craze". Now there are tons of import shows and magazines.

There was like one or two kids that were into tuners before the movie came out in highschool. when my senoir year came, everyone had some import and only 4 kids had muscle cars. ridiculous.

i commuted to Pitt Greensburg my first year of college. There were 5 thirdgens(to my surprise), all RS's except a 85 Z28, which was built up a bit but ratty on outside. also like 4 stangs and a GN, that i saw. the rest were either imports or beaters and there was alot of imports. LOL

If that movie didnt partially start the import craze i dont know what did.

I am sad to admit this, but that movie did get me looking at a prelude or an Mx6 mazda. Poor times those days but i found the light and went to my true roots.


Oh and Vettes would be nice but they are pretty expensive. a decent late 80's vette runs like 10 grand, while most decent thirdgens can be had at less than 6 grand. alot can be done with extra 4 grand

sorta same reason, why do import owners start out with civics and not supra's or skylines, or Rx7's or other higher end import. expensive. LOL

pasky

Thats where your clueless stu, I bought my car for $1800, was a v6. I then bought an engine and miscalaneous parts and modifications for a total of around $6000 and now im on par with a corvette, if you can find me a corvette for $7800 and has the insurance rate of $59 a month, i'll jump on it.

nick418

I am sad to admit this, but that movie did get me looking at a prelude or an Mx6 mazda. Poor times those days but i found the light and went to my true roots.

wow ORR finally admits it! Im with ORR to, back when i was 14 and the Fast and TheFurious came out, i wanted a Honda civic over my Camaro I now realized the truth! And yes movies like that did make the young crowd into it. I rem hearing all these teenagers gettin in car accidents and racing after watchin the Fast and the Furious...

rx7speed

import means economy car?
how so because there are civics around that are designed to be economy cars


if that is the case then american cars are no better I mean you have your metro, escort, pinto, focus, saturns, prism, cavies


all economy cars so does that mean economy car americans?

as far as v8 will get you power so will some imports
1g eclipse, cheap easy to mod to make fast.... $ for $ or mod for mod I would put money on the ecplise up to at least the 13's if not 12's

supras have been known to put out massive power without using a v8

rx7's are quite capable of putting out power as well and are known for handling quite well..... think z06 realm for a 93 r1

300zx
280'z with some good swaps to them
crx have been making good times
quite a few imports have been able to go fast and not all of them started off economy cars but some have and are still able to give hurt to quite a few ppl here


but when you go about saing jap products have no ***** you lump things together in a way which either makes you out to be lcosed minded, stubborn, and in a way an idiot

but I can see you point in way though I mean who wants the american power of a geo metro when I Can go out and get my friends economy rx7 that is pulling a bit more then 1g on the skidpad, prolly around the 68-69 range for the slolam and around 450hp japanese muscle

rx7speed

horspower is based on torque
can't have one without the other so

rx7speed

again read above quote
can't have horsepowe without torque
and horsepower is just a mathamatical equation from torque
there is no mysterious thing about hp that keeps you moving

rx7speed

500hp rx7 should be into the 10's
an 800hp rx7 will prolly be in to the 9's maybe 8's depending on how well the car can hook
that is the problem with rx7's the IRS setup and design of the suspension wasn't made for launching it was made for the turns.

also with boost generally it will only have any effect with first gear.
most all rx7's I ahve seen with huge turbos are making full boost by at least 4000rpms
when we shift gears we don't fall below 4000rpms so it's not like we are falling out of the torque curve here

rx7speed

EDIT: dp

rx7speed

in a way you kind of proved his point
a v6 isn't the greatest platform
you spend a total of what 6000 in mods
stu prolly spent less that that and is now prolly as fast as a vette
quite a few ppl with the "econo cars have spent less then what you even spent and are now just as fast as *instert car here*

rx7speed

and the 302 was just as fast as the 350 :-p

rx7speed

just wanted to say sorry for the whoring but I'm bored and should be heading to work but I don't want to go provide that customomer service right now

nick418

no it wasnt

the 350 always produced more power

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

5.0 stangs are bit lighter and could run even with 350 TPI but depends on conditions

nick418

ahh yes, the had a 5 speed which was good.. Most i see that run bonestock are high 14s.. A SD L98 should hit low 14s. Ive beaten my friends 1992 5.0 5 speed Mustang in my dads 1986 Corvette L98 with 2.59 gears.. And the 86 was the lowest number (and 85) L98 years and with ****ty gears and they both prob weigh the same as well

and once agian the L98 always produced more HP (besides 87 it was tied) and always had more TQ

pasky

No I didn't, if you read earlier, mine is a sports car to begin with. Im not speaking of terms of any car, when I had the v6 I wasn't looking for performance and was not racing. I threw a v8 in it, I didn't supe up the v6.

anondude13

_

rx7speed

does mean much though
there is more to winning a race then just who produced the most power
who produced the most torque over the longest area, weight, and stuff like that all play a factor

but the 302 was for the most part even stock for stock with the l98 from the thirdgen
little here little there for each

which kinda shows that peak power doesn't mean win

pasky

Unlike others, I respect the fox body, its a worthy rival. I don't consider a riced out import a decent car. Sure that may change when I know the owner and I can respect the work he put into it, but in general, I can't stand the childish highschool kids that give them that stereotype.

rx7speed

sport car is generally a small two seater so

sports coupe, or pony carthough will work

you through a v8 in for quite some money it sounds

others have started out putting some mods on keeping the same motor though and are able to compete with vettes

point is though you didn't start with the greatest platform (v6) upgraed things. and now you have a faster car

rx7speed

I find it funny ppl sit here and rag on stu and talking about how he starts arguements
and yet many others rip into him a lot worse then what he has ever said and then point the finger at him saying he is to blame.
not pointing this really at you r3pp3r just figured I would point that out



as far as imports they have been around long beore that movie was. that movie had to have some insperation which it did have and came from real life r<x>icers out there. now the movie might have sped up the proccess but it was already there and already taking p[lace well before that movie ever came about

25thmustang

OK a LOT of guys on this board are clueless when it comes to other car manufacturers...

Number one you are lumping imports into one general broad category, and as RX7speed already showed you, thats retarded, import doesnt mean 1990 Honda Civic DX. Believe it or not there are even different Civics and such out there. A GSR Integra, or SI Civic is faster than most 305s produced... I guess when you look at it that way they are a sports car, small light, good hp/lb, nimble, and fast. Much more of a sports car then a heavy, big motored, ball less 305 TBI. Your comparing apples to oranges and trying to makle it sound right...

Number two on here, if all you look at is power and tq you need to open your eyes. Look at the fact, it made 245 hp to the mustangs 225. The Fbody weighed what, 3400 lbs, to the mustangs 3100. Then you factor in the better gearing in the Mustang (because of the T5) and you have a good race. They were side by side and for the most part equally as fast, but after you looked into modding and the aftermarket, it wasnt even close. Add a set of gears, slicks, pulleys. and take some weight out and you had a 12 second Mustang, the same could NOT be said for the Fbody. Im talking drag racing here (as we all are) keep the road course comments to yourself...

As for the import scene, it had bee around for years before the movie. It started with the rotary cars, and then progressed into the newer street cars. When technology started to get better people tried new things and started with new platforms. For the same reaso it is cool, to go fast in a diesel pick up (now tell me those arent impressive) back then it was cool to go fast in a Civic. Now it has exploded, they are cheap to get, cheap to own, get good gas mileage and can be made very fast. For anyone sho disagrees, go out and learn about it instead of sitting behind a monitor and worshipping the mid 80s Fbodies.

Pasky, I have always hated usiing that comparison. There is always someone from the other camp faster for less. I have seen 11 second Mustangs for not much more than $2500 and seen 12 second DSMs for not much more than that. Seen Civics i the 12s for $4000, etc... Speed/dollor is never a good way to compare unless you take 2 identicle cars, for the same price (meaning stock 1992 L98, vs stock 1992 Mustang 5.0) and then do the same mods. See which set of mods cost less in the end and which is faster. And with this in mind, the Musatngs going to win. Does that mean the Fbody is a waste of money, no not at all, different strokes for different folks. Same holds true with an Fbody vs a Civic (example here). The Fbody will hands down win, does that mean the Civic is useless, not at all... See every issue you guys have with the economy cars, can be held true againts your Fbodies, and against my Mustang... In the end let them do what they want, and dont get your panties twisted about it!

Metal383

the tuner culture had been around before TFTF came out. It was mostly the higher up imports (Supras, Skyline GTRs, etc.) that were meant mostly for road racing in such. Then it extended to lower imports (civics etc.) since they were cheap, reliable and were available by the dozen (kinda like how hotrodding started). Then that horrible movie came out and everyone wanted to be like them. All show and no go, mispronouncing nitrous (NOS is a company not a shortened version of nitrous). The import community (the true community dedicated to actually having respectable power and speed, not just looks) rags on those movies and their followers just as much as we do. Before some of us go and spout out this ignorant bull**** that makes everyone think we are hicks, realize that Stu and people like him are actually trying to do what we try to do, go fast and have fun doing it. Plus, I'm pretty sure Stu could take out the average member here in a race due to power to weight and overall building plus he seems to know what he's doing with his car(majority of members I've seen have pretty much stock cars, there are exceptions which is why I said the average member)

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

a 100K mile civic with the 1.6 vtec is around 5 grand for decent one. Most are more expensive. Hondas hold their value. that aint real cheap. all bolt ons dont do much for NA. unless you got some serious knowledge and ability, turbo'ing one isnt easy nor cheap. Most get a kit whichi s 3 grand. even with turbo, that car may only run 13's. 8 grand into a f body in the right places, and your moving.

i never understood why a 5.0 loves mods, but oh well good for them. LOL i know they can be made fast and have wieght on their side.

yeah, no one said that the TF and TF started the import scene, it just moved it along drastically.

TBI92Camaro

The Ford 302 and the Chevy 350 are in the same class....the 205 doesnt have a Ford "counterpart" so to speak. The 305 was meant as an economy V8 model, that wya Chevy could say they put a V8 in a Camaro, sounds appealing to bhuyers. Thats why there werent any big power 305s. The L69 only got the better parts because at the time there was no 350 for the F-Body platform. So, when you compare the Camaro and Mustang, you have to compare the 5.0 vs the L98. Thats why its so good to smoke a 5.0 with a little 305

As for the import trend, the truth has already been said, it did start and was really based around the higher end cars like RX7's, Skylines, Supras, etc. Once TFATF came out, all the immature kids and even some adults went out and bought Civics and lower priced imports, attempting to be like DOm's gang lol. Yes they can be made fast but I myself am not a fan of them, because I just like staying true to my American roots....plus I think I would be shunned from my family for owning an import lol

Anywho, I may have already stated the obvious but just had to get it out there.

stu

Thanks for taking the bait, sucker. I spent $1000 on my car, then $3000 in parts and I'm on par with Vettes. I just don't see your argument holding any water here.

stu

Also, I see a trend here that most of you don't. Being into cars (and imports) long before TFATF, I saw what people were doing and what kind of scene there was. It was the same as after the movie. The only reason it looked like it exploded, was because it was called to your attention. It's just like when you get a new car, you start noticing more of them on the street. It's because you are paying more attention now, not because everyone went and bought the same thing as you did.

Some of the things some of you guys say really leaves me speechless. On the other hand, I'd like to thank and show my appreciation for those who don't live under rocks and are able to see things for the way that they truely are.

Does anyone know what the fastest import is by the way? Just curious.

pasky

WRONG!!!

My total cost for the engine swap was not $7800..... If I had that much to blow on the motor it would be forced induction. Total cost of parts and engine/tranny was 3300. The rest was new carpet, new seats, paint job, and some suspension mods. Good ***, if I only got 300rwhp out of 7800, i'd kick myself. Stu, guess what...its still a acura.... Take it how you will, call me ignorant, it makes no difference to me, im not gonna jizz on myself because yours cost slightly less than mine.

pasky

Oh and new rims and tires too .

pasky

You sure can, just look at trucks and other engines that rev to the moon.

stu

Well, first, I think you mean an Acura, and anyone who is embarassed to own one is a fool. There is a specific reason that Acuras are more expensive than Chevys (Read: Not Cadillacs)

pasky

Your taking my statement out of context bud, it was in reply to stu's "Why don't you just buy a vette."

BTW, if were speaking in thirdgen terms, you are correct on the cheap mods, but newer model f-bodies can go quite a bit faster mod for mod than a mustang of any year and this is not a smack in the face, just stating the truth. All a lt1 needs to hit the 12's is just a cam swap, LS1's hit into the 11's with just a cam and their still extremely streetable. Not bad for $400 for the cam and springs. Just thought i'd clear that up. Only sad part is for the f-body crowd is the mustang can use slicks stock with a stick =/.

pasky

Shipping? . Sorry had to .

stu

LOL, nice. I can only think of two Honda products that are sold here that aren't made here anyway.

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

not entirely true tho, as i seen ten times as many imports as i do now. I went to the race track as a kid before TFNTF and maybe a few imports there. Now, all imports and few stangs. that movie did bring on the imports to a degree cuz it brought that scene to the innocent kids who picked it up.

so part true and part false.

25thmustang

Actually my friend has a bolt on LT1 with a cam, and guess what he has gone 12.8 @ 106... His car is a bit slower than mine, and I dont have a cam... Give me the right $400 cam (off the shelf cams for our cars are well under $200) and Ill be solid low 12s or high 11s...

I know what 4th gens can do, I also know what thirdgens can do. I will admit the 4th gens are awesome cars and can be made fast for cheap (I know quite a few 4th gen owners), but when it comes to dollor for power, 99% of the world will agree, its exremely hard to beat a 5.0 Mustang. You can take a mid 14 second 5.0 and get it into the 12s very easily. And when comparing to a third gen, that is hard to do. They wont take bolt ons into the 12s, for the most part.

pasky

I agree as far as thirdgens and believe your friend probably has a mild cam within the car, as I said earlier, I was agreeing with you if your speaking within the 80's, I agree 100%. But we are still sexier .

rx7speed

ok you say you can have one without the other?

horsepower is based on torque using math
if torque equals zero horsepower equals zero
if horsepower equals zero then torque equals zero

hosepower by itself isn't what makes a car move or keeps it moving it is still torque through the whole thing all horsepower comes into play is math and that is about all

pasky

Not exactly what im saying, what im saying is they can both be on the totally opposite side of the spectrum. High HP does not mean High TQ and vice versa.

midnight383

Definitely not praising 2F2F, its only entertainment, but y'all do remember the final cars at the end of the movie, right? They did seem to make a point to consider them superior throughout the movie, that was pretty obvious.

Ballpark figures for turbocharging cheaper "economy" cars are definitely lower than what seems to be the general consensus around here. If I hadn't discovered this site, I'd probably be well on my way to turbo-ing my 93 civic (which I purchased in good condition for $3500, not 5 g's). Most people these days, at least the informed ones in the tuner world, do not buy kits; its all custom, its cheap, and I'll be damned if it doesn't work too. A "junkyard" setup can be had for under a grand...can you make an $3500 L03 3rd gen run high 13's for under a grand (without having to fill up the bottle). BTW, I haven't seen a L98 in decent shape in that price range, that's why I used L03; as well, my first car was a '90 RS L03.

It all just comes down to personal preference, there is no "better car". Its more about enjoying what you do, whether it be with what you have, or what you can afford, etc. Knowledge is the first step in realizing that biased perspectives will earn you nothing in this business, nor in any other aspect of life.

Lastly, a ***** is the person, not the car.

ShiftyCapone

iTrader: (7)

You cannot have one without the other. They are a function of each other. People just get confused when certian engines make their power and how long they make it for.

HP = (Torque x RPM)/5252

This applies to every spark ignition engine at any point in the curve.

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

they are a function of each other but how do you explain TPI making 250 hp and 350 torque while LT1 has like 275hp and 325torque or something like that. same goes with other motors. Some can make more torque that compariable motors while producing less horsepower. equation just gives you idea. but using it for 89 L98 specs, thats 330torque at 3200rpms. 230hp at 4400rpms. that equation gives 201hp. so its not entirely accurate.

and the Lt1 responds greatly to cam swap cuz the intake is designed to make power up to 6000rpms or higher. stock cam is barely any bigger than L98 cams which peak around 4500rpms-5000rpms. so put in a hot cam or bigger in a LT1 or Lt4 and you got mad power increase.

ShiftyCapone

iTrader: (7)

No the equation is dead nuts. That is why it exists in every IC engines book in the universe. This is the relationship between the two.

Ok

If you made 250 hp with a TPI engine at X rpm. Take the torque output at that point, multiply it by the RPM (that the 250 occurs at) and devide by 5252 and you will get 250. The L98 makes 340 or so lb ft at 4400 rpm. The HP for that engine when it is making 345 lb ft of torque is 284. If you had a dyno sheet it would be dead nuts.

If you increase one you increase the other. No matter how much you mod or restrict the engine. You cannot even come up with HP without torque. They are basically the same thing. HP is the rate at which torque is being created.

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

ohhh, ok, i see now. it refers to the torque at the HP peak. i though it meant torque peak and its rpm divide by 5252 and you get peak HP

what you get is hP at that Torques peak rpm of 3200. 201hp at 3200rpms