305q_ta86

iTrader: (1)

Ok, my buddy recently got a '78 z/28 and he keeps telling me it will rape my 86 TA.

His is a 350 with an aftermarket carb, intake manifold, and ancient headers. And a Muncie 4 spd.

Now, it probably would beat me, given that it also has posi, if it werent for the fact that it was only running on 7 cylinders (when it would start) and that it is sitting on blocks.

He keeps telling me it's making over 300 horse. (when it's supposed to be like 165 stock) Get this - he says it's over 300 horse even with only 7 cylinders going.

Am I crazy, or would it be a little closer of a race than he is thinking?

THEGENERAL

a 350 with an aftermarket intake and carb and a muncie 4 spd and ancient header..LOL....no matter how old the headers they are still better than manifolds..LOL...but i think you will get your tail handed to ya .....thats my opinion ......not that a stock one wouldnt be a good race but he obviosly is breathing better in and out than stock so watch out ...if he puts a tune up in it your toast

305q_ta86

iTrader: (1)

Yeah, probably. But I just find it hard to believe that it could be pushing more than 300 with only 7 cylinders firing...

Oh, and he cant drive stick..

THEGENERAL

the part about 300hp on 7 cylinders is
but with a tune up its possible but unlikely

rx7speed

hey guys none of my cylinders work and I am still able to push 140hp out of 1.3L and can take an LG4

ShiftyCapone

iTrader: (7)

He is dumb for running the motor on 7 cylinders. You could win.

nick418

i think you can take him

1981z28

350 V-8 185 @ 4000 280 @ 2400 8.2:1 4V

i going to go head and say they had alot of bals to only have 185 hp.plus those old 4sp are killers.
plus i tthink he would take u stock if he had a good tune-up

305q_ta86

iTrader: (1)

He could probably take me out. If he knew how to shift. He's never even driven a stick before. But assuming he did, yeah. He just needs one hell of a tuneup lol.

Well, when the track opens up again next summer, and I am hopefully running a rebuilt 350 or a 305 with a little boost, we will see.

I plan to have 300 hp by then, either out of a 350 or a supercharged 305.

custom88camaro

I think that part about none of your cylinders working is a little off. A more accurate statement would be "I am not running on any cylinders". After all you don't have any cylinders...LOL

BTW, my buddy has a 7 and he likes to say "My car isn't fast b/c I need to get a cam for it". LMAO!!!!

As for the '78, he will have a lot of trouble beating you with his car on blocks! If he decides to put some wheels on it you will still whip him until he fires on all 8. Even then you will walk him until he learns to drive the car. After that...............Sorry, dude. Our prayers will be with you. LOL

1981z28

he could drive and had a tune up he would beat u stock vs stoc. his modds might make up the differnce if he hits his gears right.

ur car has less hp and less ft,lbs with his modds and a good tune he could have like 249hp and 310ft.lbs with low rpm peaks

305q_ta86

iTrader: (1)

lol if I had a 7 I'd almost want to get a sticker for it that said "no overhead cam" or "0 valve"

like those stickers that say dual overhead cam and 16 valve and stuff.



Well, hopefully, by the time it comes for us to race, I will have my 350 or my supercharger...

Oh yeah, which do you think? 350 or 305 supercharged? I am thinking the superscharged 305 will be easier and sheaper, long as I only put 7psi into it...

custom88camaro

"No overhead cam.." LOL

If you go 350, and don't go crazy on the compression ratio, you can always SC that engine later.

I say "There's no replacement for displacement"

1981z28

There's no replacement for displacement

here here

rx7speed

um I would say there is
ask the guy who is running a 502 on cam that has 410" of lift and 210* of duration through some smogger heads from the early 70's with 8.5:1 compression with his timing retarded a little too much

he has displacement but he is missing tuning right
take that motor vs a stock L98 and who would win?
L98 being his parts are designed to work together and tuned with each other


now take a 350 vs some some boosted 2.0L motor
the 2.0 might have a chance depending on what mods it has


now now I know you are going to say "well what if you add boost to the 350 motor now it will win so see no replacemenet for displacment"

so let me ask you this
take a boosted 302 vs a 350 N/A

you argue no replacement for displacement and to prove that you say the same thing "displacement rules and to show that lets add boost to my bigger motor and we will see who wins"

but in reply the guy with the smaller motor says " to show that boost rules I will add displacement to my boosted motor now to show you that boost wins."

so who is right?
the bigger motor showing it's better by adding a boost
or a boosted motor showing it is better by adding displacement

urbanhunter44

iTrader: (3)

But put the boost from the 302 onto a 350.. then who is making more power?

No replacement for displacement.

rx7speed

lol read that was already covered
put the displacement from the 350 into the boosted 302
then who is making more power
no replacement for boost

not trying to say boost will replace displacement
but displacement in itself is not the cure or end all
read about the 454 you think he is honestly going to be that fast?
he lacks tuning.
without tuning your dispalcement means nothing

and still who is right
the guy who puts the boost on the 350
or the guy who takes the boosted 302 and ups the displacement to lets say 350


so who really is right?

custom88camaro

I guess I was afk for too long.
rx7, I didn't say that displacement is all you need for power, I simply said it can not be replaced. It took me a few minutes to grasp the concept when it was first issued to me too. The thing is this. No matter how many mods you do to a 2.0, or a 302, it will never have the horsepower of an identically modded 454 that is in proper tune. Therefore there is no replacement for the larger displacement. There is nothing you can do to the 2.0 that replace the large displacement. Only because you can do the same thing to the big engine and make more power. BTW there is a replacement for boost...........Displacement!!!!!!!!

No matter how much boost you have, you will make more power with more cubes.--------correct

No matter how many cubes you have, you will make more power by adding more boost.------false
Just add a similar amount of boost to an engine that is larger you will make more power.

custom88camaro

Holy crap, just re-read your post.
The reason you aren't saying boost will replace displacement is b/c you understand. Nothing can replace what you displace.

In the words of my wheelie popping SBC 1st gen camaro owning uncle.........

"There is NO substitute for cubic inches"

anondude13

A supercharged 305 rebuild will cost you a lot more cash than an NA 350 rebuild. If you do a blown 305, you will have already reached the maximum potential of your engine (within reason). If you do a NA 350, you will still have a lot of options for making more power. A blown 305 will be a maintenance and tuning nightmare. I could go on, but to summarize go with the 350.

jksstar

you got that right

TBI92Camaro

Actually, Id just take the 302 without boost.....what a sweet motor.....If I had to choose 302 or 350, well, its not to ohard, the 302 would be on my stand hehe. Those motors arent anything to joke about, Ive seen them pull some serious numbers N/A. Plus, its always classic to see peoples looks when you tell them that you have a 302 under the hood of your Chevy

Air_Adam

They didn't have a Muncie, they had a Super T10 4-speed.

THEGENERAL

1978 Z28 Carburetor (Rochester Quadrajet)

Transmission: 4-speed Borg-Warner T-10, aluminum case,
Inland or Hurst shifter, 2.54:1 low (not available in California). Turbo Hydra-Matic 350 optional, mandatory in California.

Clutch: 11 inch diameter.

Rear Axle: Ratios were 3.42 for Turbo Hydra-Matic and 3.73 for 4-speed; no options

Brakes: 11-inch, vented, cast-iron front discs with vacuum assist standard.
Rear 9.5-inch drums. (unchanged since 1970)

Front Suspension: Spring rates 365 lb./in. Stabilizer 1.2 inch. Identical to and unchanged from 1977.

Rear Suspension: Spring rate 127 lb./in. Rear Stabilizer .55 inch. Identical and unchanged since 1977.

Steering: Power assist, straight 13.02:1 overall. Identical to 1977.

Wheels & Tires: 15 x 7 rims, Goodyear GR70-15 steel-belted radials standard.

305q_ta86

iTrader: (1)

Well he said his transmission is a muncie. Either he's wrong about that, or he got under and checked. I know it has a hurst though.

Meh. Either way.



I'm thinking what I will do is get a mild 350 shortblock and rebuild my heads and put them on. But that wont happen until next summer, so until then I have time to save my money and get an intake manifold and a set of headers and an exhaust cutout.
That way I can take that stuff and use it on the 350.

rx7speed

it's not just displacement that wins you a race
just like it isn't just boost that will win a race.
TUNING is KEY


big cubes bad mods. not much power
lots of boost with bad supporting mods not much power
you have to tune everything and make it right


and still there
who wins
big motor putting boost to show displacement wins
small boosted motor putting displacement on his car to show boost wins....

now whoever pumps the most air through the motor wins if they are in good correct tune and have an effiecient motor design wins.... that is what it could be

ljnowell

There is nothing magical about a number, i would take the extra 48 cubes if it were me.

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

alot of the fastest boosted cars in the world use destroked 400blocks to 350-377 cubes with lots of boost. No one i have seen uses a big 454 small block with boost to be the fastest car in world. Its usually the smaller motors built to rev high that make sick power.

THEGENERAL

how in the heck did this get from a 78 z28 running on 7 cylinders to running boosted cars and argueing about small cubic inch motors being the fastest in the world..????? damn thats gotta be a far stretch from the beginning topic..LMAO

Air_Adam

Wlecome to TGO

ShiftyCapone

iTrader: (7)

No, its more like welcome to the street racing board.

THEGENERAL

i think it should be renamed the BS board...

305q_ta86

iTrader: (1)

Haha I was also wondering if this thread would see the soon, but I think displacement sort of comes into play... 305 vs 350 and all that jazz. and the tuning matters, because, well, running on 7.


and for the record, there is no way a wankel engine should ever be compared to a conventional piston engine in terms of displacement, because they are apples and oranges. completely different engines, working on completely different concepts. And the rotary engines can rev twice as high. What are they going to do, throw a rod?

Air_Adam

Touche

Anyway... those late '70s Z28s were nothing to brag about. The only 'performance parts' they had were a ST10 4-speed and 3.73 gears. It had the same (lame) 350 as everything else, it was very heavy, at about 3800lbs, and the aerodynamics left something to be desired. They were dogs.

Want proof? Ask RB83L69... he had a '78 and a '79, and he traded the faster one of those two in for the '83 L69 he has now, because the performance difference was so big! And those two 2ndgens were basically new cars at the time.

rx7speed

don't forget the theoretical part
which I think is being covered here



305q the rotary redlines at 7k
for many years
highest rating is 8000rpms
not twice what a piston motor does and also due to it's design it does have some flaws with running high rpms being the center of the crank isn't supported but free floating leading to flex.... plus do you think accesories would like to be reved up that high?

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

what else can be said about this? LMAO

But seriously, what all can be said about a 78 smog-350 running on 7 cylinders. Kinda self explainatory dont you think? LOL LMAO

1981z28

lg4 that says it all LMAO

anymethod

Hey 305q, we have the exact same car even down to the wheels. I never saw one like mine with those wheels. Anyway an old friend of mine who isn't a friend anymore had a 78 z28 4 speed. Nothing to brag about at all. He could drive ok and it had the 3.73s, but the only thing it did well was wheel stands. I say it will be close with 8 cylinders, but you should win if you launch well.

~Matt

rx7speed

but yeah I atleast know about the pontiac with the 301... IT'S SLOW AS HELL

way over weight not enough power too much smog stuff

I don't think the 350 for a chevy is going to be that much better
still over weight
still smogged out
still under powered
still geared bad
STILL SLOW

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

yeah the 76 ish + 400 was a complete dog! I can only imagine how SAD that 301 must be! LMAO

1981z28

was a pontiac turbo motor.it ran low psi last time i checked just turn up the turnbo and watch out. i think they where 16 seccars stock.

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

dont think the 301 is same thing your thinking about. the 70's 301 motors in the pontiac firebirds and tA's. no turbo in those cars

THEGENERAL

i dont believe the turbo 301 came out until 78 unless im mistaken and it was quite the turd none the less...LOL

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

what cars was that motor in? That is a new term for me, a turbo 301

THEGENERAL

im sorry i meant pontiac 301 with turbo....excuse me ...LMAO

it was in either a 78 or 79 maybe 80 firebird/ta

heck i dont remember now...LOL

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

wow, i never heard of that. Are those the first production cars with turbos gm ever made? And i never heard of that. LOL

THEGENERAL

i was wrong it was the 80 and 81 heres a link to it ...

http://publish.uwo.ca/~agrehorn/301shrine.html

i dont know what year gm started the whole turbo thing i know in the regal it was a 1978 3.8 turbo

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

LMAO that motor looks like a POS!! LOL

THEGENERAL

why yes they werent the most powerfull critters in the world at all...LMAO

Air_Adam

You are thinking of the original Turbo TA, which was only 1981 I think. It had a turbo'd 301 in it. Rated something like 220hp I think, but it was still a 4000lb turd. An '89 TTA would eat it alive, and so would a '78-81 Z28.