305q_ta86

iTrader: (1)

Hmm, yeah we'll have to see. Hopefully by summer I will have an intake manifold and headers, possibly a cutout, so that should push me over the top... Cool that we have the same car. Dont see too many around anymore. What color is your interior? Red/grey?

305q_ta86

iTrader: (1)

Oh, I know about the crank, I didnt know it was a problem though. I know a guy with an 88 that says he makes trips past 9k easily, but I dont know how legit that claim is. So yeah, not twice, but a hell of a lot higher for sure. And as for the accesories, good point. The water pump would probably go PPFT and the alt. might charge like 30 volts for a split second and then BAM. UNless you had underdrive pulleys

1981z28

i was taalking about the 1980 and 81 trans am 301 turbo

rx7speed

the 301 my friend has is a 79 firebird

it is for the most part like a chevy 302 design. you know 4 inch bore 3 inch stroke
but unlike the chevy 302 that can rev up quite a bit this 302 won't even hit 4500rpms
there is a built in rev limiter on the car it seems due to bad flowing heads.
I put the car in first held it to the floor and hit 4200 and there it stayed
the car has something like -150hp and 3900lbs of weight runnign at least 3.08/3.23 gears I think the cars are junk for performance straight from the factory...
now he was going to put a 428 poncho in there lucky bastard bought it for 100 bucks. but the bastard sold that and is instead maybe putting a 350 in there rather then the 301 that is nwo sitting in pieces.

rx7speed

the stock tach only goes to 8k rpms
unless build up with high revs you tend to get flex in the crank which will allow the rotor to move up and make contact with the rotor housing allowing a nice piece of your apex seal to break off.
also comes problems with the gears inside the motor and those breaking and making contact in wrong ways when warmed up at high revs. water pumps would hate it. on a N/A even slightly modded no point in it for the most part being the stock ports don't flow enough air to really do much at 9k rpms heck at 7k rpms most stock cars start to drop off.

now I have heard of some cars doing 9k rpms but those are HIGHLY BUILT motors with lots of supporting mods for airflow to actually have a need there

but stock... eh whats the point


oh and another thing I have heard there is a rev limiter though I don't know myself being I haven't hit it yet doing at least 8k... :-( stupid me wasn't paying attention and instead starting at some hot chick forgot to shift into second..... and when I did broke the clutch.. doh... ironic thing I was on the way to get my clutch checked out

305q_ta86

iTrader: (1)

Heh that sucks about the clutch. I remember when i was in like the second grade I rode my bike into a pole checking out this girl. And in grade 2, that's really saying something lol.


But yeah about that guy, all I'm saying is what he told me he did. I never said he was smart

1981z28

didnt the 77-79 301s have 2barrls and where they turbo or n\a

305q_ta86

iTrader: (1)

You can find most of that info here: http://www.musclecarclub.com/musclec...istory-2.shtml

rx7speed

my friends was a 4bbl and it was N/A
the turbo 301's I think came out in 80 and ended in 81
again tha tis if I remember right.... sad thing is they are still slow as ***** and on a good day might make a high 15 second run.... not bad for boosted v8 power huh

custom88camaro

I beat one with a rusting to pieces 77 280z. The 301 turbo model. I think it was an ex-police interceptor of some sort. so I heard. Anyway, my old z with 260 head on it opened a can of you know what on it.

THEGENERAL

they were from 80-81 only with the 301 and turbo...

rx7speed

ok best way to imagine a N/A 301
take a honda insight.............





now think of a car slower then that...



you now have a pontiac 301



best way to think of a turbo 301.......




picture a honda civic DX......





there is the performance of a turbo 301






thank us pontiac for blessing us with real muscle cars there

anymethod

305q:
My interior is gray. And by the way, I meant the only thing my friend's 78 Z28 was good for was BRAKE stands, not wheel stands hahaha. Yea right....

~Matt

305q_ta86

iTrader: (1)

Ah yeah my interior is red with grey. Still darn close though.


And yeah, I figured about the brake stands lol. :lala:

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

thank us pontiac for blessing us with real muscle cars there




LMAO, thats funny rx7!

rx7speed

oops
was trying to say thank you pontiac for blessing us with true muscle cars"
not thank us pontiac for ...

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

i understood what you were saying but it is funny

305q_ta86

iTrader: (1)

Well nonetheless, if a LS2 isnt a good example of American muscle, I dont know what is..

IceManRS305

iTrader: (-1)

well considering you have wheels and he has cinder blocks... i think you will win... hehe

1981z28

ls3 396 or ls6 454

Mcdamit

yeah 383,390, 396,400, 427,429,454, 502,............572. thats definite muscle
Yes ford, chevy,pontiac and AMC

305q_ta86

iTrader: (1)

*officially stands corrected*

1981z28

383 is a dodge big block (yes its also a ford and chevy stroker motor)

1981z28

think small blocks are pure muscle to .the high model L-48s ,Z28,L98,LT1a,LS1,LS6(corvette small block)
not to minchin 400 small bocks 327s i forgot 283s real 283s are mean for there size.

305q_ta86

iTrader: (1)

Yeah, small blocks are def. muscle. I even consider my 305 American muscle, even though it is one of the lowest output engines GM made. And heck, it's still enough to have fun with.


The plan is to get a 350 in the spring though. If I can afford it.... I need to find ways to cut costs.. Any suggestions?

1981z28

go to the junk yard grab a old c10 350 for about 75 bucks .get a rebuild kit from auto zone 300 bucks for the factory rebuild kit bam 300hp and 380ft.lbs all for 375 bucks.

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

The greatest pontiac is the Super Duty 455 in 73.

305q_ta86

iTrader: (1)

Jesus that's awesome! Then all I need is machining work done..


..And I assume this will be a simple bolt-in swap? Should be... And then I can even use perf. parts off my 305, and then sell the 305 longblock for a bit lol

THEGENERAL

should bolt right in as long as you dont need to get a flywheel and starter and your definatly gonna need better exhaust and headers ..LOL

but yes it will bolt in a small block is a small block just make sure you get heads that arent junk and have accessory holes..

1981z28

c10s have a set off 300hp heads that are not for perfomence so change those.

305q_ta86

iTrader: (1)

Hm. I hear my LG4 heads are pretty good, maybe I'd just rebuild those with a little porting...

ScottyRS

iTrader: (2)

What?

305q_ta86

iTrader: (1)

Displacement+boost+tuning = power

EDIT: actually, it's more like displacement x boost x tuning = power

ljnowell

You could use any 350 block, it doesnt have to come from a truck. But, why would you buy that rebuild kit, when you could spend the same amount and get better? There are much better cams than that old school grind that would come with that kit. Beyond that its all the same.

THEGENERAL

hey ljnowell empty your pm box..LMAO

305q_ta86

iTrader: (1)

I probably will get a slightly hotter one. Only problem is, if I get the kit and then find out the block needs more work, and I need oversize bearings, I'm boned..

THEGENERAL

you always have your machine work done first ...then decide what you need as in bearings and rings ,pistons and so on

305q_ta86

iTrader: (1)

Ah yeah that makes sense. Might be harder to find a kit with all the right specs, but I can mix and match too. Thx for the help btw.

ljnowell

Compare apples to apples. If you take two engines and do the same mods to both, the bigger displacement will prevail. if you boost both, the bigger displacement will win.
Of course a poorly planned package Vs a perfectly matched one will have skewed results. That doesnt prove anything in the displacement argument.

stu

I agree for the most part, but I think I could come up with a few instances where this isn't true. The more I think about it though, I think that the bigger motor would have less compression in each one of my examples.

305q_ta86

iTrader: (1)

Like I said, I think displacement x tuning x boost = power about sums it up. You pretty much need tuning and boost/displacement to make power, and if you have both boost and displacement, in addition to the tuning I just mentioned, then you're set.

rx7speed

it's not all about displacement

some of you guys say nothing can replace displacement

tell me who is right here

guy a is a boost guy
guy b is a displacement guy


guy a drives a 302 with 10psi of boost
guy b drives a N/A 350

guy a says no replacement for boost to proove that boost wins I am going to show that by making my motor a 350... boost wins

guy b says no replacement for displacement to prove that I am going to add 10 psi to my car


who was right?


you guys always argue that there is no replacement for displacement. and your only standing arguement it seems is if yo utake a small motor that has boost and now add boost to the larger engine then who would win?
in that case the displacement motor.

the above shows that if both ppl add there own mod to prove that boost or displacement is the winner end up doing the same thing end up in the same place... niehter is really right yet they both are at the same time


you guys seem to want to compare a small boosted motor to a large motor that has boost added later to show that displacement rules...
this puts the larger motor of course at an advantage

you guys always want to compare even mods and only make displacement the factor there and that is it. even mods right except for displacement and that now means displacement is unreplaceable

now to finish this ranting



displacement IS NOT THE END ALL.. IT IS NOT UNREPLACABLE, IT IS NOT THE FIX FOR EVERYTHING

displacement is a TOOL. nothing more

guys tell me what ALL OF THESE HAVE IN COMMON

displacement
boost
nitrous...... for the r<x>icers out there..... this means you stu NAWS!!!
bigger cam
better flowing heads
better flowing intake
headers
mufflers
cai



they all have at least one thing in common
can someone answer that for me and you might see that displacement ISN'T the end all and is replaceable and you might see it is nothing more then a tool to achieve more power

THEGENERAL

okay here we go again ...LOL

if your going to start out with a 305 and put 3000 dollars worth of mods in it boost what ever

or you could start off with a 350 and put 3000 dollars worth of mods in it boost what ever

which is going to be faster????

the end..

displacement will win ...

and i know what you mean by the engine size and mods they arent ever exact from engine to engine

but its silly to keep bringing this up when a larger displacement engine with the as you say exact mods as the smaller one will in fact win you even stated that in your last post..

"this puts the larger motor of course at an advantage "


little dog big dog syndrome

rx7speed

care to answer the question I stated at the last part of this

also I Was refering to a 302 not a 305

and to say of course this puts the lager motor at an advantage with everything else being even is like saying
of course the motor with more boost will have an advantage
or
of course the motor with more nitrous will win
or
of course the motor with more compression will win
or
of course the motor with the larger cam will win
or
of course the motor with better heads will win
if all else is equal do you see a trend here



once again though

guys tell me what ALL OF THESE HAVE IN COMMON

displacement
boost
nitrous...... for the ricers out there..... this means you stu NAWS!!!
bigger cam
better flowing heads
better flowing intake
headers
mufflers
cai


answer that question and read the part right above the question and you might catch something

stu

They all determine what the motor can flow as far as the capacity of air it can burn. There are only like three ways to increase power, displacement, compression, and rpms. Boring and stroking increase power maybe 10-15%. Raising rpms makes more power, but the wear on the motor (and pressure on the rods) increases exponentially. So you are left with boost, which raises the effetive compression of the motor without the extra wear.

Or something like that...

stu

Oh yeah, I don't use nitrous.

When I get a Saab though, I will probably end up using water injection.

84firebird383

The saying "no replacement for displacement " is most correct on two motors of the same design.An example would be a sbc283 vs a sbc400.The 400 can pump more air so it has the potential to make more power with the same mods.Once you start camparing different designs the saying isnt necessarily true. I think it was carcraft that did a build up of a sbc400 and a bbc396 trying to make them as similar as they could then did a dyno comparison and put them in the same car for a dragstrip comparison. In both cases the 396 stomped the 400.As far as boost being a replacement for displacement .I think its 100% correct. Boost forces the motor to pump more air than it normally could making it seem bigger than it is. No matter how big the motor is you can always add boost to make it seem bigger than it is.

ljnowell

The argument isnt displacement replaces boost. I dotn see why you cant understand that. Yes, boost can overcome displacement to a degree, is that what you want to hear? The argument of displacement comes in when examining an engine build. Such as If Ido all this work to a 305 it will make XX amount of HP. IF Ido that same amount of work to a 350 it will make
XX + 20%. That is why the statement says no replacement for displacement. If you are comparing a boosted engine to an NA engine, that statement does not apply.

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

LMAO this is funny watching everyone bicker about motors.

I'll add my two cents. Dont forget about compression

A 8.5 to 1 350 with XXX mods might not make more hp than 12 to 1 305 with similar XXX mods.

There are so many variables to building engines that its almost impossible to compare motors. compare mods on similar displacement motors cuz thats the only fair way. Displacement usually helps cuz extra cubes makes extra HP and Torque.

Also you cant compare a 454 big block to a 454 small block cuz totally different designs. Airflow and fuel distributed in big block will always make more power and torque.

another example, 10 to 1 compression 355 super ram motor with LPE 219/219 cam and AFR 195 heads makes over 400hp. Can run low 12's.

Add 33 cubic inches to that and make a 383 with same stuff as above, the 383 will make more power and torque, and thus run faster. LOL

ljnowell

Thats a perfect example. You just proved the displacement argument. If you compare SIMILAR ENGINES. IE, same compression, same cam, same stlye induction, etc, the bigger cubes will win.

If you start boosting, boost them both. Same amount of boost. The bigger cubes will win. Its easy to hit a smaller motor with a lot of boost and then say "well you rule is crap cause I beat a smogged out 350 w/ 8:1 compression and a 2 barrel". Thats not how it works.