Tom 400 CFI

You know those Roadkill episodes where things don't quite "work out"? Where it's one azz-kicking after another? Or a time where suffering happened, to get something done on your own car? I've not had that happen with me for years...maybe even decades. But that's what happened this weekend; a couple 350's and a lot of suffering....

My Brother, who lives in Truckee CA, bought a late '90's, Comp ski boat, from a guy here in UT. The boat was not winterized last fall, cooling system froze and cracked the 350's block in at least 5 places and cracked both heads, too. PO had fired it up, ran it until water shot out of the dipstick tube and he hydro-locked it -based on his description of events. Boat was priced accordingly and was a good deal. I met the PO picked it up and brought it to my house....plan being my bro would come out and I'd help him find/swap another 350 into it...he'd tow it home. Blissful boating would then ensue.

This weekend my brother had time, so this was the weekend....and things were...challenging. The original plan:
Go to a U-pull-it yard Friday, find the finest 350 specimen ever to be pulled from a Chevy product, pay $134.99 + core, bring it home, swap all the parts over from bad engine to "new" engine, "marine-ize" new engine, put in boat. Have running by Saturday evening, water test Sunday, Brother tows it home/back to Truckee Sunday evening. That was the plan. Reality looks quite a bit different....

Blow #1: Finding and pulling the engine. I have had FANTASTIC results finding (and using) junkyard engines...I'm 5 for 5, prior to this one. We went to Tear-A-Part first, there were about 10 Vortec 350's in trucks, 'Burbs, Tahoes, but all had over 300k or other issues. Nothing good. Leave there, drive to Pick-N-Pull, not great options there either. There was one 179k (yay!) 'Burb,....engine seized (booo!). Another hi miles, on and on, finally found one that appeared good? Turned by hand, felt smooth, no "clunk clunk" going back/forth with the crank pulley, I could feel "compressions" turning it by hand. I snuck a booster pack in w/me so I cranked it w/the starter and it sounded "normal". It was missing the intake already, valley was "dusted"/dirty....it wasn't the "J/y Gem" that I'd typically seek out, but my bro was in town so it had to be then. Then? That appeared to the the best option. UNFORTUNATELY...it was housed w/in a focking pile-of-cow-dung, G3500 Express Van. It was also 105°F....and the GD van was facing south...so zero reprieve from the sun/heat...it was oppressive. Suffering ensued.




Got it out and back to my garage by Friday ~7 pm. At this point? Still on schedule, so we think.

Blow #2: Self inflicted dumb-fukery. I'll just list it here.
1. Picking an engine that I didn't love, from a vehicle that I didn't love. I wouldn't have pressured myself into that, had I not been on my brother's timeline.
2. Didn't notice or look at the valves/rockers on the cow-dung's engine. Two exhaust valves were bent (discovered after getting it home, swapping cams and proceeding to adjust rockers).





Now we gotta pull the head, go back to bone yard and swap heads.
3. Spilling oil. My brother dropped the pan on the old engine, didn't drain it first (I should have told him to), tipped the pan, ~4 quarts on my garage floor. Time to stop and clean up.
4. Rocker Arm Retards. When swapping the head w/the bent valves, for the warranty head at the yard, I again, didn't pay attention to the rockers; "it has rockers on it". It only had 4 rockers on it, so we get home, have three rockers left from the old engine (that we'd "efficiently" core-exhanged when we went down to swap heads) and were short 1 f'n rocker arm! Baaaaack to the j/y for ONE lousy rocker arm and ball.
5. "I forgot that...."
*That marine heads use different exhaust valves, since they're run under load all the time. I pulled a head off of the old engine to steal two valves for the Vortec head that had the two bent exhaust valves. Pulled springs, valves, when to stuff 'em into the Vortec heads......stems are too thick. Marine exhaust valves won't go into the Vortec/Auto application head.
*Also forgot to replace the rear block freeze plugs before putting on the flywheel and coupler. So, pull the coupler back off, flywheel off....NBD, but dumb waste of time.
*Forgot that inflation happened. The long block wasn't $134.99 (like it was back in "the day")....it was $500 bucks! Ouch! Sorry bro.

Blow #3; Out of our control BFS.
*Starter. Starter on the boat engine was fried. Probably from the PO trying to crank/start it after it was already hydro-locked. Then trying to start it some more. = trip to SLC, $340 for "marine starter" (a $120 starter w/a shielded solenoid).
*Timing cover. I didn't want the L31 Cam, I wanted the boat cam, so timing covers off. Both were the late, plastic "one time use" cover. I had my bro get "any stock or stock replacement cover" from an auto parts store, while he was running errands. All NAPA had was a Mr Gasket, chrome POS, so he bought it. 50 bucks!!

"Chrome won't get ya home!" Nope, this POS timing cover didn't even make it out of the garage. Put it on, put on a late one piece pan gasket, put the pan on...flipped it over, filled w/oil to prime....why's it dripping oil out the front?? Drain pan, drop pan, spot welds on timing cover popped and the seal cradle broke off the cover. JUNK.




There is another trip down to SLC. This time, bought a plastic "one time use" Vortec replacement cover, put it on, pan on, filled with oil, good to go. Mother F'er!
*Mess. Take one 350 engine, mix 5 quarts or oil with ~4 gallons of lake water. Crack an oil galley and fill cooling system, pump, pipes, etc w/oil. That = a mess. In the boat, under the engine, everywhere.
*Lack of engine option for Friday, 8/2 and the constraints of the situation overall

SO, the upshot? Well? It's not that good! After 3, 10-12 hour days, we ended up Sunday night about 9:30 pm, w/a long block that we THINK might be good, installed into a boat, nothing hooked up. My brother jumps on a train back to Truckee. Goal for the weekend? NOT MET.




I fought issues all weekend and I see another full weekend's worth of work ahead; carb, dist, exhaust, harness, plumbing, brackets, test fire, dial in, run on the fake-a-lake, change oil/filter, take it to the lake for test run....trailer maintenance, brakes, wheel bearings, springs/shackles/lights/harness.....

Hope the read brings a smile or enjoyment to the reader; I'm here for YOUR reading....entertainment!!

More pics below in post #5

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T.L.

'Makes me realize I'm not the only one who encounters car guy problems...

TTOP350

iTrader: (8)

Been down that road sooooo many times, all the best!

Airwolfe

iTrader: (1)

B.O.A.T.S (Bust Out Another Thousand Sir) Got to love them. Happiest days of ownership are the first day you put it on the water and the day you sell it.

Tom 400 CFI

Depends on the boat.

More random pics because pics are fun.







Here is one of the lobes that corresponded w/one of the bent valves....


























More pics and story below, in post #14....


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battmann

iTrader: (9)

i feel your pain. i have terrible car related luck but i'm too stubborn to pick an easier / cheaper hobby.

Vader

You might THINK those valves were bent, but they might have been the special valves used to convert standard SBCs to 18° head for full-race cam applications, If they had a layer of Pacific Rim Chrome on them, you could be certain about it.

Tom 400 CFI

Are those variable? Can they, say, go from 23° at low RPM and then tip to 18° at high RPM? Those valves are brilliant!

Roorancher

That's not at all true. I bought my boat new 40 years ago, and still love it. We've grown old together.

Roorancher

I hope the OP realizes that not only are the heads/valves different on a boat, but the cam is likely different as well.

Tom 400 CFI

Yep, the OP knows that for sure. Which is why...
...which lead to the timing cover debacle.

Further looking today actually shows that at least some Vortec marine engines use the same or so close to the same as to make no meaningful diff, cam as the standard truck Vortec engine. I may have swapped the cam for nothing. I doubt it though....I'd bet the earlier, non-Vortec headed marine engine has more cam than the Vortec truck engine.

Airwolfe

iTrader: (1)

Your good buddy @Fast355 knows a lot about the marine engines. I'm sure he could tell you all about it.

Tom 400 CFI

No kidding. I almost didn't post this whole thread, cringing in anticipation, of "that"....since it has TWO carrots that would call to him; marine stuff and van stuff. Neither of which I need to hear about. Maybe he can buy the old cast iron take-off boat intake? I hear those things are pretty wicked mega....

This coming weekend, my brother is coming back, we'll slap the rest of it together, run it, drop it in the water and give'r hell. If all goes well, he'll be towing it back to Truckee Sunday.

Tom 400 CFI

Brother jumped on a train, came back to PC last night, worked on the rest of the peripheral parts today, then.....Tried to fire it up....

First start:


After dialing timing/fuel/idle etc.....



Ahhhh....real progress, no rod knocks, no dead holes.....things are looking up!

Vader

Reminiscent of some Mercury work in the past. At least it will troll, and looks like it keeps most of the water outside the hull.

Tom 400 CFI

Thanks, we’ll see. Aiming to put it in the lake today. During our test sessions last night, we identified two problems. First, the starboard side exhaust tube that runs back to the transom was broken completely in half. So it was actually filling the boat with water. Ha ha ha, kind of. Made a repair on that last night, so we’ll see how that holds.





The other problem is that the fuel pump I chose apparently has too much pressure for the Edelbrock carb.
The pump is rated at a maximum of seven psi, but it keeps pushing the floats open and flooding the hell out of the thing. So I need to get a regulator this AM, and install it.



So, another trip to SLC. While my Brother went to fetch a regulator, I jacked up the trailer and did some Trailer maint; fixed the tongue jack, checked and greased wheel bearings, checked wiring, springs, shackles, u-bolts, aired up tires, and tried to fix the non-functioning brakes; master bore was rusted (honed it out) and cup seals were hard, so that repair didn't work out, but we know what part is needed to get the trailer brakes working. Brother came back, I did a rushed install of the regulator...



(That's right, I have a hose that makes a complete circle. Laugh away. Out of time, out of fittings, that's going to work for a little while till my brother re-plums it....some day.)

.......energized the fuel pump....no flooding. GOOD....let's go drop this thing in the water and see what happens.... Continued below, in post #20

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MrIROBZ

Wow! Dude I would have sent you a Vette L98 with heads and TPI intake for $500 bucks. Plus the ride. Runs... Complete.... Harness, PCM everything.... Timelines never work out well with things that are unknown...

MrIROBZ

Yeah, forgot to mention, boats are never trouble free. I sold mine happily. Everytime I took it out it was a pain. Mako 18LTS for bay fishing. It was a decent boat and all, it just needed a bunch of love with only 46 hours on it but it sat a lot.

Never again.

Tom 400 CFI

Boats are special, that's for sure! I have a '92 Mastercraft Prostar 190....I've had it for 24 years, put almost 1000 hours on it....it's been incredibly reliable. I don't really do anything to it other than change the oil, grease the steering, and drain the carb and water every fall. I attribute the reliability to:
*Indoor storage
*Simple drive train
*Low engine operating temperature (=low "under hood" temps)
*Premium quality (upholstery, hardware, trims, etc)

But I've had other boats that were all the way, the other way. That can be a rough ownership experience! This boat that I'm working on for my brother, it could go either way. If he takes good care of it, it could be good. Will he? Eh...probably not.

Cool of you to offer up the 350...I'd have taken it if we'd have known/talked about it!

Tom 400 CFI

Welp.....


...we were boaters today! We boated! Look at us motor boating. The old 3500 Express van engine lives again...and I think it'll live well. It's got 42 lbs of oil at idle, idles nice and smooooooth, runs nice and cool -<150, starts quick...engine ran great.







Still, the day wasn't w/o problems. I'd set the fuel pressure with our new regulator, to ~1 lb. That turned out to be too low and after I launched the boat w/my brother at the helm, it died on him and he ran the battery down trying to start it (and after he'd also left the stereo on all night), while I was parking the car/trailer.....he had to paddle it back to the dock against some wind and I think he was pretty irritated and maybe a bit confidence-shaken at that point. So...not off to a great start.

I turned up the fuel pressure to the carb, did some "fancy footwork" and got it fired up on the low battery, and that issue was solved and behind us. We ran it for about 15 minutes at the dock partly to get some charge back into the battery in case we might need to crank on it again, and also to watch for leaks, smoke...whatever....and everything was looking great, (including our exhaust/'glass repair from the previous night! ) so we shoved off and pointed the bow toward points unknown!

Once out of the no wake zone I started to attempt to bring it up on plane, the engine responded eagerly and sounded great and with that I rolled into the throttle more and things felt the way that they should. Boat got up to 30 mph quick and easy, and I rolled back the throttle to hold that speed and cruise.





Everything seemed great. The wind was in our hair, the engine sounded sweet and felt strong....we were boating! We ran around the lake for about 5 minutes, when UNFORTUNATELY, the trans oil cooler blew apart...and started filling the boat with water at a rapid rate. We stopped, killed the engine and assessed. The cooler is a oil-to-lake-water cooler that is in-line from the raw water pump to the thermostat housing. It is made of brass with brass tubes and brass end caps with 1" nipples for the raw water hoses. One of the end caps blew off, so at that point you got the raw water pump pumping, IDK, 50 GPM? of water into the boat (with the engine running) and the engine's not getting any more water. We removed the cooler, dried it thoroughly, placed the end cap back on and fastened it with the best fastener that we had available; electrical tape!

That worked though, and we re-installed it and fired the engine up...not one drop came out of the thing! We drove around the lake at low speeds so as not to over pressure the trans cooler and our tape-job, for about an hour, swam from the boat some....all in all, a great afternoon on the lake. I was stoked about the engine.




My brother has a check list of things he needs to address when he gets home with it; trans cooler, some plumbing, wire the stereo to keyed power, change the oil and filter....and wash/wax the boat. He rolled out of Park City about 6 tonight....headed west to home....exactly 1 week behind schedule.






At new home in Truckee….





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Tom 400 CFI

Welll shhhhyyyyt.

The boat isn’t done fighting. Front pan to timing cover is leaking. Again. The leak looks basically the same as with that stamped tin cover that broke. WTF.

Tom 400 CFI

Well something weird is going on here. It's weird to me, at least. Maybe I need to Learn-a-thing, today?

Update:
1. The seal is NOT "in front" of the front pan lip. Although it appears that way in the vid, it's not. It's correctly "pinched" between the front pan lip and the bottom of the timing cover.
2. The leak is occurring at the top of the timing cover-to-pan interface, it's at, and just below the front of the pan rails.
3. In the previous vid, the oil is actually coming out of the pan to timing cover seal, immediately below the bottom of the block, then running down the seal and dripping off at the bottom.

Using the SHOP VAC METHOD backward, to test for leakage and ID the precise leak point (great idea, on his part!), he has identified two leaks; one on each side of the timing cover, starting at the jct of the cover and the block, and running about an inch down the cover. An inch! If you watch the vid on a PC (big screen) you can actually see the leak "bubbling"/spitting at the top of the timing cover where it meets the block/pan rail, the first one at about 1.5 second right as the camera pans up a bit to reveal that part of the engine. Anyone know WTF is going on here and why this is happening?? For clarity parts used in this assy are:
*Vortec truck block
*Vortec Roller timing gears and chain
*Vortec plastic "one time use" timing cover (brand new)
*Vortec oil pan gasket
*Boat pan.

The engine that came out of the boat had:
*Vortec looking block (GM 350 block from 1995), 1 pc/roller cam/6 bolt timing cover flange...
*Vortec Roller timing gears and chain
*Plastic "Vortec" looking timing cover (imprinted with "One time use" on it, just like the Vortec cover)
*One piece, silicone "Vortec looking" pan gasket.
*The above pan

By all rights, it seems to me that I took a pan off one engine/parts and put it on an identical engine/parts....but now those parts leak between the upper bottom of the timing cover and the pan seal. I don't "get it".

Using the shop vac in "blow mode", air comes out here on both sides of the timing cover....



Thoughts?

Tom 400 CFI

Nothing apparent here, to the 3rd Gen Pan Pros?

Fast355

iTrader: (2)

I tried to stay out of this. Did you RTV the 4 corners before installing the pan gasket? PDF page 120 or Service Manual Page 6-119 in the upper corner of the PDF scans. Figures 2 and 3 and the description detail exactly where the RTV is needed.

5.0L-5.7L-MEFI-4-Service-Manual.pdf (marinepowerusa.com)

Yours is leaking exactly where they seem to leak when the RTV is omitted in the 1-piece oil pan gasket installation. Even the older engines need RTV in basically the same spots when using a 1-piece oil pan gasket. People that miss that step swear up and down the 1-piece gaskets are not capable of sealing. I personally never understood how anyone made the 4-piece gasket setup seal even half way decently. First thing I threw in the trash in a bottom end gasket set was the 4 oil pan pieces and bought a Felpro 1-piece seal.

Don't feel too bad if you missed the RTV step though. I actually missed the 1" wide strip on the rear on the outer sides behind the oil pan studs. I got the 1" strips on the rear seal housing but missed the one where the block and seal housing meet and currently have a very slight seepage from the rear of the pan and main cap junction on my 383 in the 97. Mine is luckily not even enough oil to form drops though, just seepage spots on the rear of the pan that collect dust to them. I built the last 350 with the service manual steps open and it sealed perfectly but I also used a Holley aluminum L31 timing cover and I use RTV between the rear seal housing and block rather than a paper gasket. I lightly snug the bolts, let the RTV cure overnight at the minimum then final torque them too. I typically do not final torque anything with RTV sealer for 24-48 hours, longer in cold weather. If you do all it does is mash out the RTV you are trying to make the gasket with. Letting the RTV cure before final torquing helps sandwhich the RTV between the parts reducing the potential leaks. Let the RTV gasket first form, then compress it. Hope the info is helpful.

Fast355

iTrader: (2)

Miss that bead along the rear seal housing where it meets the block and this is the leak you get. Oil seeps out past the rear seal retainer and down the oil filter pad and the filter and starter. Leaves the rear of the pan with a film on it as well. Oil collects on the oil cooler adapter and filter as well. Lead me to reseal the oil cooler housing to the block for no reason, lessons learned. In my case this is ~5,000 miles of leakage. About to swap the cam and lifters anyway as well as swap the intake and convert to 24x, so it will be addressed then.

Tom 400 CFI

Yeah. that was helpful. It's BS that you need RTV on a silicon 1 piece seal, IMO. -now I'm not arguing here...I'm venting. The whole point of silicon gaskets (IMO) is better leak prevention than cork/rubber multipiece kits...and silicon is reusable! Not after you blob RTV all over it, though! Grrrrr. I've never used RTV before on the one piece silicon pan gasket and I've always had leak free results...so while aware of the "spec" I tossed it together w/o any. Also, the fact that shop vac air was literally "blowing" through the spaces between the pan and the seal by the TC cover is absurd....but it did. That simply shows us that the seal isn't sized correctly for the gap. Venting completed.

Well? I won't make that omission again. I got skooled on this oil pan install. Thanks for posting the service manual -that is fantastic reference.

Boat is leak free ATM. Brother applied RTV from the outside using the shop vac method and boated for a few hours yesterday afternoon, did some WOT pulls and no leaks at all. Fingers crossed...b/c if the "correct" repair is needed, he'll likely need to tow it back here to pull the engine again to fix it proper.

Let the "Blissful Boating" ensue.....

Aaron R.

This thread will go down in ThirdGen.org history as the first time Tom400 and Fast355 briefly got along.

Heck, even I didn't have anything snarky to add either.

History in the making. It's been a good thread.

Tom 400 CFI

Yep...we CAN do it! I appreciate his post. It was a good'n.

Glad the thread is providing entertainment. That was kind of the idea from the outset, when what should have been a pretty straightforward swap turned into....a LOT.

I hope his pan repair holds and he gets enjoyment and family time out of the thing. I hope he thinks it was worth the effort/expense. So far, I can tell he doesn't love the "drivability" of the comp boat, compared to his old boat, but they are very, very different vessels, so he needs to get used to the inboard characteristics and way of boating. Time will tell.

Fast355

iTrader: (2)

Trust me I get it. The oil leak down the starter and filter ticked me off too. That is why I researched the proper way to do it to prevent that. I have also had the timing cover interface leak on an engine I cam swapped years ago. The aftermarket oil pan gasket instructions that I threw away without reading listed to put RTV on the 4 corners, but no mention of the RTV on the rear main housing to block junction. That was a new one for me. The more experienced I get with stuff now, I have learned to read instruction for understanding 2 or 3 times rather than power reading over the cliff notes. Noticed it saves me time from having to do a job 2x or more to get it right.

Hope his shop vac RTV method holds up and happy boating.

That SBC Marine repair manual has great information. It is practically identical to the engine section in the 2 volume, thousand page GM service manual books I have for my Express van and Tahoe. That was basically written by the same company probably Helm that wrote the GM manuals for GM dealership technicians. Same diagrams and descriptions. I have built SBCs for years and still learning new stuff from the actual service manuals.