iroc u too

I'm going to pick up a 327 from one of my buddys and i was wanting some feedback if any on these types of motors and the performance i can expect from it.

Loki1199

Oddly enough, I was thinking the same thing. Will it bolt up to a TH350, and the motor mounts I have in my car now?

85transamtpi

327 is a great motor

...just dont put a tpi intake on it. Because of the high rev nature of this engine tpi would strangle it. If you want efi, I would run a miniram. Otherwise I would run a carb. The TH350 will bolt up to the motor, but you'll need a new crossmember and (i think) a shorter driveshaft for the trans to fit into your thirdgen. The motor mounts shouldnt give you a problem. Keep in mind that you'll need a high stall converter, gears, and some other high rev goodies in order to get the most potential out of this setup. It would definetly be a very cool swap, I wish I had te time/resources to do it myself.

Good luck

85transamtpi

Oh yeah, performance...

Ive seen Novas with 327's run 12's on motor without sweating. The performance you'll get depends on intake/cam/heads/gears/etc. The only bad thing about any high rev motor is that they tend to be less streetable than a 350 or 400. Most guys who run 327's run at least a 4:10 gear (normally higher) and at least a 3000 stall...It wouldnt be too bad for street/strip, but if you car is a daily driver I'd go with a different motor.

-peace

iroc u too

Once i get started on the motor the car is going to be put away, I've been having to drive my iroc since my truck decided to shoot craps.. The great thing about this motor is i got it cheap!
I'm not planning to fully mod it as of yet you know how things change, do you think i full frame?

Loki1199

Thank you for the great information!
You have helped me reach the decision not to take the free 327 that my buddy is giving away because my third gen is a daily driver, and I just don't think that would work for me. Instead I contacted the engine shop that built the screwy 350 I have in it now. They said that because of all my motor problems, they would try to help me out.

xxwarrior36xx

I like them and was debating between the 383 and that engine. My dad has one in his 66 vette and it runs really good. The real killer is a friend of mine has one in a 67 camaro. This car flies....I don't know what time it would run but I tell you what I bet in the 12 range. I love those engines.

Momar

You were debating between a 327 and 350 That is kind of odd. They are oposites of each other. One is high rev power and the other is brute torque. I think that that would totally depend on what you want to do with the car.

Ben

iroc u too

Hey, Momar whats your iroc look like maybe i've seen you before i'm also from Decatur. I've got a white 84 Z28 with the iroc rims dipped in chrome.

Momar

I dont have an IROC. I have an 85 T/A. It is blue and has a large silver trans am bird on the tinted back window. It says pontiac across the front windshield. I was wondering where do you work because there is a car that parks at ADM trucking that I have saw that has chrome IROC rims on it but it seems like it might actually be an IROC. You wont see my car around at the moment because it is in the garage with the motor out. I am putting a 350 in it because my lg4 took a crap.

Thats cool, talk to you later

Ben

iroc u too

Ya i have seen you before thats a pretty sweet car, the last time i've seen it was in the summer. The bird on the hood makes the car i think. That is my car at ADM. Ya as soon as i get another car you won't be seeing mine till spring maybe summer? Talk to ya later.

99Hawk120

What?

A 327 and a 350 are NOT that different. You act like he's debating between a 302 Chevy and a 455 Pontiac.

camaro6spd

327...the "orginal"
350....bored 327
283 stroked and bored 350

350 is the middle ground
327, produce torque but makes lots of power up top
383, torque
So the 383 and 327 are opposites if we are talking about the same block..

99Hawk120

Actually, a 302 and a 383 are the opposites. All use a 4" bore, and the 302 is the smallest stroke I've seen from the factory.

What's funny is no one really built 327s after the 350 came out. I wonder why that is.

SSC

The 327 can be compared to the fNord 302, short stroke big bore. It's a very good designed engine and is as streetable as any 350. You could build a 327 on a limited budget and make gobs of hp It's just that people dont want to bother to correct the gears to use all the 327's power. If you use a 327 your gonna need at the minimum 3:42 gears. Dont expect much with the 2:73's that are found in 9 out of 10 3rd gens. If any of my 355's crap out Im going with a 327. I personally dont care about less tq in stock form especailly when I can shift out of second @ 90mph like in my dads 55.
SSC

Momar

Sorry, I meant to say 327 and 383. Yes the 302 is more different than the 327 from the 383 but the 327 and 383 are still totaly different animals, yet still both good motors though.


Ben

Momar

I think you mis understood or just mistyped. My car does not have a hood bird, it has a bird on the rear window. Your car also looks pretty bad. Hopefully I will be driving mine soon. I work in the ADM building right next to you in the intearnal audit office. It looks like a big warehouse but there is offices in the back and there is a fence between us and adm trucking and thats it.

Ben

RB83L69

99Hawk made an interesting point, which I know the answer to only too well... since I've been building motors for that long.

The 327 is a perfectly good motor, nothing wrong with it at all. Be prepared to lose to an equally prepped 350, every time, no questions asked, no chance for a different outcome except for driver error on the 350 car's part.

The reason we all quit building 327s was because they were less powerful than 350s. If you build 2 otherwise identical motors, one a 327 and one a 350, the 350 will make more power at every RPM. The 327's peak power will occur at a higher RPM than the 350's, but its absolute value will be lower.

Personally I wouldn't put a TPI on a 327, or a 350, or a 383 or 400; I might put one on a 305 if I didn't have a better induction system, but I would avoid it if possible.

8Mike9

May want to recheck your stuff

five7kid

iTrader: (14)

Nothing wrong with TPI on a 327. Just put in a cam that has a powerband that matches the TPI (whatever that is when you get done modifying the TPI).

327 is certainly a step up from a 305. Get off this stuff about them being high-reving: the factory put them in 10-ton trucks - 4500 RPM max. They just have to rev higher than a 350 to make the same power, that's all, so now they are not "equally prepped".

Anyone offering me a free 327 is going to have a taker.

8Mike9

There should be a link to this reply every time this topic comes up.

I think many fail to realize that the reason people built 327's, was because that was what they had.

There were variations that some hardcore-1/4-mile-at-a-time guys did..ala flathead Fords, where they offset ground the crank to grab a bit of stroke, but as RB mentioned before, once the 350 debuted and became so widespread, the 327 wasn't that sought after.

How many remeber the 302's that the 283 guys made? IIRC about a 1/8th of an inch overbore could be done to that block...but how many of those guys kept looking for the 283 block to hog out when the 327 was born? Probably ony the one's "whose Dad had a hogged out 283" in thier car.

rx7speed

I myself like the 327. so it might not produce as much torque down low like the 350 has but after what I drive I am used to having to rev the motor up. .I am sure that if you built the 327 to take adv of it's high rev nature and put in at least 3.73 gears it would take a lot of 350's out there
my dad had one in his 69 chev truck and that thing was able to move. though granted he had to hit about 3500 rpms to start making any real power he had the right gearing and motor setup to do so.
now if you are going to buy a 327 I wouldn't say build it like you are building a 350 just not as much low end torque there (though can't really see it being that much of a difference) build higher rpms and you should do just fine


sorry kinda drunk so I will quit my rambling

Little GTA

The way I look at it is that the 327 is the base motor. The 350 is a stroked 327, and the 383 is a stroked 327...for more torque.

I thought the 350s were built to have more torque to move a heavier automobile...

If you have a 327, and want a 350...stroke it with a 3.48 crank.
I wouldn't turn down a free engine.

BTW...there is no such thing as an equally prepped 350vs327...so I would never use that argument...and I'm also sure there is a lot more to the 327s dieing out than the 350 made more power.

Curious...can someone tell me what stock 350 motor outperformed the L79 327 350horse motor? Maybe the LT5 ZR1 motor I suppose.

RB83L69

Equally prepped = take the same heads, cam, intake, exhaust, etc., even the block itself if you happen to be working in large journals; take the 3.25" crank and the pistons for it out, put the 3.48" crank and its pistons in; make no other changes.

The 350 will outrun the 327, every time, period, case closed.

If you took the L79 and put a 350 inside it instead of a 327, it should be good for about 25-30 more HP than the L79 was. It doesn't matter what stock motors did or didn't exist.

Like I said, there's nothing wrong with the 327; you'll just lose to a 350, that's all. Or, looked at another way, a $3000 motor will go faster if it's a 3500 than it will if it's a 327. Personally I like to get more for my money, so I use those incjes as a "lever" top multiply my money's effectiveness.

You are correct, the 350 was built to produce more power.

Little GTA

OK...
If the 350 makes more power like you say...then what is the main difference b/w the 327 and 350 besides the crank?
If I stroked a 327 to a 350 (since I have that opportunity)...it wouldn't really be the "equal" of a "regular" 350???

99Hawk120

Last I checked, a 350 is merely a stroked 327. I don't know the early years well enough to be certain, but you'd just have to be sure you got the right size main journal blocks/cranks.

RB83L69

You are correct, the only difference is the stroke.

68-back 327s had the small journals, and those blocks (and rods) will not work with a 350 crank. If your 327 is newer, then you can turn it into a 350. The later 327 and early 350 blocks are the same castings.

So I guess turning a large-journal 327 into a 350 is as "real" a 350 as "natural orange flavoring" is "natural"... it might be manufactured in a test tube, but it is indistinguishable in any way from what comes out of an orange.

327 and 350 use the same rod length (5.7"). The sum of ½ the stroke, plus the rod length, plus the compression height of the piston, plus the deck clearance of .025" or so, must equal 9.025" in the SBC motor. So, all you'd have to change would be the crank and pistons, to readily available 350 pieces.

rx7speed

I understand how you can give each one the same build up but isn't there intended rpms range different?

the 327 I admit has a disadvantage when it comes to the lower to mid range area b/c of it's smaller stroke. and so wouldn't it be best if you want to compare them to give them each a build up to the rpms range that the stroke of the motor would work best with?

99Hawk120

iznataszi

i had a built 350 with alot of cam diration and i blew it and got a free 327. i put in the L79 350hp cam and took the heads of my 350 and it screams. now keep in mind its in a s10 i must saw i miss the tourqe without a doubt but this is one of THE BEST chevy engines ever made. now im running a th350 with 3.42 gears im lookin to swap to a 700r4 but am not sure if it an handle the power and also im loking to convert to a hydraulic roller setup to moer take advatage of the high reving. but the thing that boggles my mind is that the L79 cam produces 350 hp at 5200 rpms !!!!!!!!!!!! there really isnt much power after that so i guess its the cam but all im saying is the engine CAN be reved higher and the higher you rev the more hp you getso by that theory i plan on switching my preformer intake to a rpm air-gap or victor jr and go with a roller setup if i can touch 7k thats alot more power than with a 350

Grim Reaper

The original LT-1s.

jms

iTrader: (1)

1967 and older 327 blocks are small journal.

1968 and '69 327s are large journal as are all 350 blocks.

The first 350 came out in the 1967 Camaro SS. Only the Camaro for the first year.

jms

chevymad

The fuel injected 327 was rated at 375 hp by the factory. The original LT1 was only rated at 370hp. Original large journal 327 blocks use the exact same casting as the first 350s. I've had 2 68 large journal 327s the casting # will come up as either 327 or 350.

iroc22

The LT5 ZR1 I wouldnt really consider a '350'. It's a totally different engine than a SBC. The fuel injected 327 as mentioned above, rated at 375hp from the factory, even the 365hp 327 which is the same as the fuel injected version, just with a 4 bbl carb (yes the fuel injection actually did make a 10hp increase) are better than the L79. The 375hp 327 is very powerful. My Dad has one in his '64 hardtop and it screams. (Oh yeah who wants a Forrest Green '64 Fuelie hartop vette for $100,000 canadian, fully restored?) The original LT1 was powerful, but it wasnt stronger than the fuelie 327. Oh wait, what about the new LT1/LT4? the reason the new LT1 was named the 'LT1' was because its 300hp net rating was higher than the old one. Oh and the issue about the 350 making more power, come on its only 23 cubic inches, that wont make a real significant difference.

AJ_92RS

Here's a Dyno2000 chart for you to compare.

Both engines are stock bore/stroke - 750 carb - high rise/single plane intake - heads - cam - exhaust. Everything is exactly the same. Even the program that everyone says is 'fake', but hey, it is an "apples-to-apples" comparison.

They fair well with each other. Not a whole lotta difference. Obviously the 350 has a little more low RPM grunt, and that is what accelerates a car. So I'd say go with the 350 just for $/HP reasons. Throw a dual plane intake on there, and you'll be going through tires about every month.

------>If pic don't work, click here<--------

AJ

iznataszi

Grim Reaper

The original fuel injection was mechanical and notorious for "getting out of tune". Simple atmospheric changes could throw out the tuning. This is where the newer EFI has the old Ramjet all beat.

PS: I was around in those days and usually the L79 would beat the FI 327 because the FI was out of tune. And the LT-1 beat the L79s. And finally, there was a magazine test where they raced the "new" LT1 to the "old" LT-1 - guess who won?

Lastly, those "old timers" are all rated in Gross HP. Take 25% away to get an equivalent net HP they have been using since the early 70s.

AJ_92RS

"your link dosent work"

Why not? What does it do, or not do?

I just need to know so that I can make any other pics I post on here work.

Thanks,
AJ

iroc22

Yeah the whole mechanical design did not benefit from a MAF/MAP sensor so it couldnt tell what was going on outside. Although the Ram Jet in tune could really make the 283/327 scream. Hell there's a '61 283 fuelie Vette in the vintage drags here at Mission BC that can pull the front wheels off the ground just with a bigger camshaft !



I wasnt around in those days but yeah the LT1s did beat the L79s but the LT1 didnt beat the mechanical cammed L76 and L84s. The one year the LT1 was rated 370hp, 1970, it still wasnt up to par with the L84. Yes the Ram Jet may have not been able to take in barometer type parameters like today, but it still made awesome horsepower.

Quote:

Lastly, those "old timers" are all rated in Gross HP. Take 25% away to get an equivalent net HP they have been using since the early 70s.

Yeah thats why the RPO code for the 370 gross horsepower LT1 from 1970 was replaced in '92 when the 300 net horsepower LT1 came out because it made more power than the old one.

AJ_92RS

Just an FYI iroc22,

The first LT-1 had the dash in the middle. The post-1992 model does not have the dash (LT1). That way you don't have to keep saying the "1970 LT-1" etc. That's how they changed the RPO code.

Just trying to help someone who knows "SO MUCH" about the RPO's.

AJ

Grim Reaper

The one thing people generally forget about some of those "old timers" like the L79, is it was often found in vehicles that weigh a lot less than our 3rd Gens do.

A 1967 Nova with a L79 didn't weigh much more than 2,800 lbs (minimal fuel/no driver). Shave 600 lbs off a L98 3rd Gen and I wonder how it would perform?

iroc22

Just an FYI AJ_92RS,

The first LT1 had a dash between the LT and 1 when it was a sticker on the hood of the vette. I dont think GM actually used an RPO code with a dash in it...

Oh and ask the people who know a lot of about RPO codes "BECAUSE I DONT" (and never said I did), that the reason the new LT1 shares the same RPO code is because it made more power than the original(the Vette version, not the F-Body version), thats the reason GM did it.

iroc22

Thats very true but we weren't comparing vehicles, we were comparing engines.

Grim Reaper

But when you consider the weight of a 1970 Z/28 vs the 1967 L79 Nova, it makes the LT-1 even more impressive.

For a Gen I SBC, I would still rate the LT-1 the most powerful. If you include Gen IIs, then the LT4 would win. I consider the Gen IIIs a completely different engine. But currently, nothing compares to the new LS6 (another resurrected RPO).

As for RPOs with hyphens, I always thought the ZL-1 was hyphenated.

iroc22

Thats very true the Nova had an awesome power to weight ratio, expecially compared to the F-Body. I've taken rides in both cars, never had the chance to drive them cause I'm only 17 but yet I've been in all the famous GM musclecars (it's all about the connections ) and I would say that the fuelie 327 pulls the hardest out of all the engines, that's why I think its the most powerful. The LT1 , (In the 70 vette, I have never ridden in a '70 Z/28, only in a '71 which you probably know had a compression drop) and the fuelie 327 definitely has way more top end power than the LT1 and more power it seems. Both cars had the same gears/trannies. In comparison with the hardtop vette 327 fuelie and the L79 nova, the 327 fuelie Vette once again seem to pull harder especially more in the top end (must be the mechanical cam) and the Vette IRS seems to hook better than the solid Chevy II axle (that's a whole other story though). So IMO, I would rate the L84 (Ram Jet 327, duntov cam) as the most powerful Gen I SBC. Definitely the best Gen II SBC was the LT4. As for Gen III, I havent come across why they took one of the 454's RPO codes and gave it to a 350. As for the hyphenated RPO codes again, the cars were sometimes advertised with the hypen. It didn't actually show up on the build sheet with a hypen. Is there any RPO codes on your GTA with hypens?

giovanhalen

Does a 350 have a song about it? Switchblade 327 by the stray cats or maybe brian setzer solo.

Grim Reaper

Iroc22, no, on my 1991 GTA all the RPO codes are not hyphenated, but that doesn't mean anything. An interesting observation though, only the LT-1 and ZL-1 were "Double Alpha followed by a numeric" engine code (until the later LT1). All other engine codes at that time were "Single Alpha followed by double numeric". In those days, there was no SPID sticker like there is today and very few people had a copy of the actual buildsheet so it is difficult to honestly say how GM coded the LT-1 or ZL-1 on their buildsheets. I have never seen a true one (yet). But among enthusiasts, we have always referredt to them as "LT-1 or ZL-1", not LT1 or ZL1.

On the "fuelie" 327, they were always a very rare animal, even in the 60s. Occasionally, I would see one at Mission in the late 60s/early 70s and I always remember the carb'd cars beating them "on a consistent basis". I recall one guy that bought a fuelie car that had the RamJet replaced with a carb and he got more consistent performance. This is the primary reason I believe fuel injection took SO LONG to catch on - until the advant of the microprocessor. Besides, why spend all that money on the RamJet when Big Blocks were cheaper and blow the doors off the small blocks. That was the "power solution" in the 60s and early 70s. In all honesty, people just didn't pay too much attention to small blocks back then. Big Blocks were plentiful and gas was cheap. Small blocks were for "economy" back then, as far as we were concerned.

Today's fuel injection is light years ahead, especially now that we now know how to reprogram them. With SD, you actually can correct for elevation via the Volumetric Efficiency Tables (for fuel) and the Spark Tables since the higher you are, the lower you MAP reading @ WOT throttle. Living in Kamloops and being surrounded by mountains, I have spent a great deal of time "tuning" the VE and Spark Tables for all the different elevation levels.

If you were to remove that"old" RamJet and replace it with a Miniram and tune SD properly, it'll blow the "old" RamJet away and relegate it to what it really is - a Museum piece from an interesting period of Chevy history.

PS: Mechanical cams are a pain in the butt. I had a solid lifter cam in a British sports car (TR6) I owned back in the mid 70s and I was constantly having to adjust the valves. I had to adjust them every month and after awhile it really got boring. I'll take a hydraulic roller any day.

giovanhalen

A 70's british bucket of bolts may not have stayed in adjustment, but that doesn't mean solid lifter valvetrains are a pain in the butt. Some people have had trouble with hydraulics also. I have had no trouble with solid lifters. How can they go out of adjustment often unless you don't know how to lock the adjusters or something is wearing way quicker than it should? I've checked them a few times and haven't had to adjust them. Three car engines and two motorcycle engines. One of the motorcycle engines was british (NORTON). Another reason they would appear out of adjustment is not knowing how to check them. Check them at the same temperature and have the right feel with the feeler gauge. Maybe you changed the clearance when you tightened them and then when you checked them again they weren't where you thought they were. Or maybe the triumph had junky locks that would not stay locked. Bicycle wheelhubs use to ave adjustable bearings and cheap ones were hard to adjust and wouldn't stay adjusted but a good campognolo wheel hub would adjust easy and stay there.

Fat Daddy

Well, actually you do not think about the "327". You "FEEL" the "327". I feel she was a "gift" from above. Stand beside her and listen to her voice. See how quickly she reaches those high notes. She's a young man's dream. Some called her "Loco" because she was so high strung. But if you learn how to train her, she will make a "Stripper" you will never forget,,,,, Watch the "Threads, Posts, and Views" come alive when her "Name" is mentioned, exciting, stimulating,>>>>> Oh I hope they put her in the "5th GEN" so the Young Ones get to meet her,,,,,,,,,,, >MUSCLE DADDY<

iznataszi

yeah!!!!!