msammy93

So my sending unit was and was not registering. I changed it and it worked fine showing 60 psi at cold idle and 20 psi at warm idle. Now the sender is showing 0 psi at warm idle even tho cold idle is still at 60 psi. If I move RPM's to 1500 my psi reads 20 and at 3000 I'm at 60. Does this sound like a bad cam bearing?

aliceempire

iTrader: (14)

Check with a mechanical gauge first to verify. The gauge on the dash is hardly accurate.

GeneralDisorder

iTrader: (1)

And cut your oil filter - if you are losing bearings it will be evident in the bottom of the filter can.

GD

sofakingdom

iTrader: (1)

Is there ANY ONE SINGLE THING that's actually "right" about this car?

Sounds to me like you kinda got led down the primrose path by the PO.

msammy93

Maybe I did, but in all honesty, the car was in storage since 2006 and everything worked when I picked it up. Just started falling apart since I bought it home. Seems like I got hit with a streak of bad luck lmao

Everything from brake lines, to sensors just went bad. Oil pressure was great for the last few weeks but now the sensor is reading bad (hoping it's just the sensor).

I did buy a mechanical oil pressure tester today to test the pressure. I should get it by Thurday

msammy93

How many miles would you recommend I go before checking the oil filter? The oil and filter was changed few days before the sensor started reading 0 psi. Would you reckon a week of driving to be good enough to show metal in the filter?

AlkyIROC

Probably.

Sacrifice a filter. It will be the cheapest test. Take off the old filter and cut it open. Take out a chunk of filter material and squish it in a vise to squeeze out the oil then open it up to look for metal.

GeneralDisorder

iTrader: (1)

Yep. The filter doesn't lie. If there's any amount of metal in there with flakes large enough to see with the naked eye - the source needs to be determined and unfortunately that generally always means a tear down.

GD

IROCZman15

iTrader: (25)

its worth mentioning, do not use a hack-saw or grinder to cut open the filter. that will PUT metal shavings into your filter

there are special tools that do it; similar to how a can opener works with a cutting wheel.

msammy93

Thanks, I was about to use grinder. Will look into the tool

GeneralDisorder

iTrader: (1)

You can use tin snips. It's just messy. Wear gloves or you WILL cut yourself and potentially be visiting the ER.

We use these at my shop:

https://www.summitracing.com/parts/lng-77750

GD

Street Lethal

iTrader: (16)

The car has been fighting you since getting it ehh. Just go to Walmart and grab a chain style exhaust tube cutter for ten bucks. Takes ten seconds to open the filter with it, but I recommend using a vice to secure the oil filter as opposed to holding it with the other hand...

- Rob

IROCZman15

iTrader: (25)

yup, this is the one I use

https://goodson.com/products/fit-1-g...nspection-tool

I also agree with using a bench vise to hold it. and a garbage can underneath the vice to catch the dripping oil

I gently pry out the filter element, and use thumb tacks to mount it to a wood work bench while I stretch out the filter pleats and look inside them.




post some photos afterwards for us.

msammy93

So used a mechanical gauge today and my oil pressure came in at 7.5 psi @ 750 RPM. The gauge was leaking oil at the pressure release button, but it was only like a drop every 3 seconds so I doubt the reading would be much higher. Anyway, I feel this is definitely not normal, especially since I had like 25 psi at idle back in October. The only thing I can think changed my oil pressure is switching to 5w-30. I am not sure what oil the PO was using. The motor does have like 40 psi @ 2000 RPM and has 60 psi @ 3500 RPM.

I am thinking either a failing / leaking oil pump or a spun cam bearing. I plan to drive it like 200 miles then cut open the filter to check for metal.

I also used a borescope to check out the rockers at idle and they had plenty of oil flowing out of them, so I at least rest knowing there is oil flow.

AlkyIROC

Filters are cheap. Cut open the one that's currently on the engine and cut open the other after the 200 mile run. That is providing the first one isn't full of metal.

IROCZman15

iTrader: (25)

agreed, cut open what you have on there now, that could be the difference between catching a problem soon, OR trashing the whole motor after experimenting for 200 miles(or less).

post pics. if you see crud in the filter, see if a magnet sticks to it or not

msammy93

​​​​​​
if a magnet sticks, is that good or bad?

GeneralDisorder

iTrader: (1)

It's bad either way. But bearing material is non-ferrous. Ferrous material would likely be a cam going flat. Non-ferrous would be bearings most likely.

GD

LiquidBlue

can also send oil into blackstone for analysis. https://www.blackstone-labs.com

A lot of guys used them on another board I hang out on. I've used them one, called them to discuss a few things and they answered right away and hooked me up with a lab tech right away. so far so good. we have high reving engines 8250 RPM's that changing rod bearings is sort of a maintenance issue, so gotta always be on the look out for bearing wear before it becomes fatal.

I would like to find someone who does oil filter analysis, but no luck yet.

IROCZman15

iTrader: (25)

I had a thread literally just over a week ago about oil testing/analysis and hardly anybody had any discussion....?
https://www.thirdgen.org/forums/tech...ysis-test.html

LiquidBlue

chimed in for ya!

msammy93

So I pulled the filter, I didn't see any particles in the filter media after squeezing it out in a vice. I also found the old oil and poured some in a cup, it had some very fine glitter in it when I shined a light directly on it.

I Have seen this kind of glitter in oil before in an engine that had restore and zinc additives, but I don't know if this oil had it so it is quite concerning. My motor is a full roller motor, so I don't think the PO would have put zinc additive. The old oil was definitely thicker than the 5w-30 I put in. The PO was a speed shop owner (dead now) and racer, I heard it was common to run thicker oils like 10w-40 in race engines? The car was a 10.9 second car on nitrous (removed before sold to me).

I checked the new oil and see no glitter at all, but I have only run the motor maybe 20 minutes total since I changed the oil.

Also, I placed a really strong magnet into the old oil and there was any disturbance on the surface particles and nothing stuck to the magnet. I'm guessing if there was any big particles, it most likely got picked up by the old filter, but I tossed the old filter in the trash so couldn't cut it open.

OrangeBird

iTrader: (1)

If , per any chance this actually WAS true , the problem is obvious , and you only need to replace one part ........

It's usually called , , , , , , "The Engine" .......

msammy93

Yeah they had time slips and old video footage of it. Guess I need to look into a short block now.

OrangeBird

iTrader: (1)

Yeah , if it's true that it was ran that hard and your seeing shiny stuff in the oil , the 0 PSI at idle is telling you your bearing clearances have become way too large .

Is it knocking ? Or blowing smoke rings of oil out of the exhaust ? if not , thicken up the oil a bit to the 10w-40 you mentioned and see if the oil pressure comes up any . Either way , drive it till it starts knocking , but I'll bet lots of other things like the transmission or differential rise up to kick your ***** before the engine actually goes TU

msammy93

Did you find out what caused that glitter in your oil?

AlkyIROC

Bad rod bearings will knock, Bad main bearings won't make noise until they have a catastrophic failure. Cam bearings are a very good source of low oil pressure especially if they spin in the block. I've changed many that have produced low or zero oil pressure at idle. If a cam bearing wears into a block too much and a new one isn't tight in the bore, it normally means it needs a new block.

However since you never discovered any indication of bad bearings in the oil filter, go on your 200 mile drive and check the filter again.

Thicker weight oil is only a patch for something that needs to be repaired. Just need to find out why it has low oil pressure even if it means replacing rod and main bearings. There's always a possibility someone put standard sized bearings on a crank that has been machined down.

msammy93

You happen to know how much a shop will charge to change rod bearings? Just trying to get a ball park figure so I don't get ripped off.

I just crawled under the car while it was running and could hear knocking at the rear of the oil pan. I assume that's a rod? I just ordered a stethoscope so I can make sure its the oil pan and not the header collector which is leaking.

If it's the oil pan it's going to a mechanic ASAP.

NoEmissions84TA

iTrader: (1)

There is a SLIM possibility that this engine was purposely set up with looser clearances to run with thicker oil for racing with nitrous.
Of course, there is also the possibility that I will win the multi-state MEGA billion dollar lottery jackpot.

msammy93

Yeah I'm not taking those odds. I would rather just have new rod and main bearings put in for a peace of mind. Since I am heading that noise in the oil pan I can rule out can bearing as being bad

AlkyIROC

Is there anything special about wanting that specific engine in the car?? Just asking because the cost of replacing a rod and bearing isn't going to be cheap. A head needs to be removed to pull a piston and rod out. Assuming this engine was balanced, a new rod isn't going to be anywhere near the original bob weight of the old one. That's also assuming a bad rod bearing hasn't damaged the crankshaft.

In the end, it can be a lot cheaper to pick up a new short block and drop it in.

IROCZman15

iTrader: (25)

glad you checked in the filter and took the proper time to diagnose it. My oddball 1-day only high oil pressure has never repeated itself. ever since then (both before and after the oil change last month) the oil pressure has been normal. both on my dash gauge and on the mechanical gauge. So I am very happy with that. I think i purposely over-examined my oil more than I usually do. I used a very bright flashlight and the flash on the camera to capture that "glittery" look in the photos on my thread. The car is now off the road for the winter, so when i get it back out after the snow is gone I'll do another oil pressure check and possibly cut open the filter again. I ran the HELL out of my engine those last 1500 miles with autocross, drag racing, and street driving. Its also still "new" with only a grand total of 3,004 miles on it. It was built for nitrous also, but my engine builder said for sure to use a 5W-20 VR1 racing oil which has High zinc in it. you can see it on my oil analysis paperwork and that it was 1530 ppm of zinc. i was less concerned about the high oil pressure after looking at the oil and having it tested. Since the high oil pressure issue was only for 1 day, I am kinda left to think that the dash needle was strangely acting funky after the day of racing, and ever since, its been normal.

keep us updated on how you make out.

msammy93

Nothing special about it in particular, I thought it would just be cheaper to have the bearings changed. The engine was internally balanced and all internals are forged, but I think most short blocks come like that nowadays.

AlkyIROC

Not really. Internal/external balancing only deals with counterweight balance. Balancing means all the pistons, rods, bearings, rod bolts, rings etc are all weighed. the rods themselves are balanced on the big and small ends so that they are all identical. This total balance weight is a bon weight and the crankshaft is balanced to match that bob weight. Something as simple as replacing a rod will through off the weight. It will still run but that imbalance may be noticeable and will slowly wear out bearings.

OEM balancing is not close to being balanced for race ready engines. OEM rods are still cast. That is unless you're buying a higher end replacement engine or short block. The typical OEM style drop in engine is still considered a factory engine internally unless you get it custom made. Machine shop work isn't cheap and taking short cuts to save money won't last in the long run.

msammy93

Update: changed the 5w-30 to 0w-40 and now hot idle oil pressure is ~25 psi on the gauge! Didn't think going to just 40 weight would make such a difference.

Cold oil pressure with the 0w is 50 psi.

I still think there is something wrong the bearings though, so will be asking a mechanic to listen to it. I can hear a small tapping noise from the oil pan still.

NoEmissions84TA

iTrader: (1)

I still say that there is probably nothing wrong and this engine was set up with looser clearances ON PURPOSE.

msammy93

Yeah probably. The noise I am hearing from the oil pan is not loud, you can't hear it unless you go under the car. The loose rockers on the passenger side are definitely louder. It is just that there was glitter in the oil the last time I changed it that was worrying me.

NoEmissions84TA

iTrader: (1)

But no glitter now, right?
Do you know what this engine has for a cam?

msammy93

Yeah I checked the 5w-30 for glitter and did not see a single spec of glitter. I plan to run it as is for a while once my oil pressure stays at 25 psi idle and recheck the oil for glitter.
It is a roller cam, but I do not know the exact specs. I did use a boroscope to verify that it had roller lifters.

aliceempire

iTrader: (14)

Roller rockers and a roller cam are vastly different things.

msammy93

sorry I meant roller lifters

aliceempire

iTrader: (14)

how did you see in the valley? Pull the distributor?

msammy93

removed a pushrod and stuck a borescope with a side mounted camera straight down. Was able to see lifters in pairs with bars connecting them. Engine block is a 207 4-bolt block so makes sense since there was no roller provisions for this block.

msammy93

Update: I used an automotive stethoscope to listen for where the knock is coming from. It is not from the engine or oil pan. I think its coming from the flex plate. I am pretty sure I am using it correctly because when I put it on my tensioner pulley I can here the ticking noise it makes much louder.

BIRD91ZRAG

iTrader: (1)

Not in a small block Chevy. They have always had forged rods, until they switched to the powdered metal rods in the LT1.

vorteciroc

A good amount of race vehicles and street cars come to my shop after sitting for extended periods of time.
Being so, I have people call me when they first go to get their vehicle out of hibernation, and tell me that engine oil pressure is low or non-existent.

More and more often now (especially with E85 being popular in street cars) I find that the fuel leaked-down and collected in the oil-pan...
Thinning-out the oil and reducing oil pressure.

Vader

Having been in New Jersey more than once (from Jersey City to Swedesboro) I cannot understand why 0W-anything would be considered for a Gen I SBC. Mobil1 10W-30 will pump down to -50°F, and pour down to -55°F. Even their 0W-oils only pump down to -58°F. Other (mineral) oils don't even get close to that even with a 0W- rating, with typical pour points of -35°F.

Moreover, it doesn't even get that cold in Jersey. If you were in Minnesota, the UP, Montana, the Dakotas, or even somewhere that gets actually cold, like the North Slope, you might think about 0W-something (only a little) but even then not for a Gen I SBC. I have the six-hole versions in several vehicles, and the coldest I can recall was -44°F. That van started on the battery only, filled with 10W30 Mobil1. Any colder than that and the block heater needed to be plugged in.

Perhaps researching the 1980's owners manual would provide some insight about the acceptable viscosity ranges. Newer engines with oil pressure cam phasers and pressure-compensated tensoners for the thirty feet of chain needed to drive the twelve camshafts might need 0W-something, but don't over-generalize. My SWAG is that changing to a good, PAO synthetic 10W-30 might provide pretty decent results in hot idle oil pressure.