This should help put the problem with doing things like modding a TPI or LG4 car into perspective.

http://www.msn.com/en-us/autos/enthu...500/ss-BBozvq5

If some of these minivans and grocery carts can outrun a "muscle car" THIS BAD, just think how far behind your 305 is starting out at. Slapping an Edelbrock carb on a TBI 305 isn't going to quite cut it if you want to escape getting drilled at traffic lights by soccer moms and Grandpa.

While NONE of the cars in the article have the "excitement" factor that the old muscle cars gave the motoring public, and none of them will ever be "collectible", "desirable", "valuable", or any of the rest of that, the numbers don't lie.

 

So true,a modern midsized Honda or Nissan 4 door will blow the doors off most 60's or 70's muscle cars,out handle and outbrake them too and get 30 mpg with a/c and a killer sound system to boot.
I would bet my 2010 v6 Dodge Charger will stomp my stock 85 lg4 car six ways from Sunday on any track except maybe an autocross.
Buuuttt,the 85 is a time machine to when I was so much younger that I still drive it anytime I can in nice weather.

 

Stop and consider, a new V6 Camaro is putting out more power than the original '67 SS/RS 350 Camaro, and you begin to see that while we look back on the '60's as a golden era of powerful cars, we're really living in that era right now.

 

Yeah I try to tell people all the time who want to "restore" their {insert plain-Jane POS here} because "someday" it's gonna be "valuable", THIS is the kind of thing I want to warn them about. What makes a car "valuable", "desirable", "collectible", and all that, TO THE GENERAL PUBLIC, changed drastically in 1973 when the effects of the first Arab oil embargo sank in. The "golden age" of "cars" has already come and gone and is disappearing in the rear view mirror, and unfortunately, even though ALOT of cars since then - including ours - are BETTER IN EVERY WAY AND THEN SOME than those cheeeeep crude old taxicabs of days gone by, the "romantic" "memorable" "nostalgic" aspect DOES NOT EXIST with cars newer than 1973. Never has, didn't then, doesn't now, never will. Doesn't matter that even a lowly stock L98 car is just about on par with a 67 - 69 DZ302 in 0-60, ¼ mile, top speed, and every other "speed" measurement, not to mention how much BETTER it brakes, handles, feels, protects the occupants in time of disaster, and EVERY OTHER measurable performance feature; the whole psychological "thing" that went with the old muscle cars just simply doesn't come with any cars newer than 1973.

 

For those of us with the lg4 we must tread lightly. My 83 lg4 5spd lost a stop light grand prix against a sentra. Also lost to a vtec civic on a 1/4mile clay oval(did beat out 18 other people to get to the feature though). That spectator race loss brought shame and dishonor to my family

 

Those new Yukons with the 6.2 have no business being as fast as they are. They really do pull hard, compared to my stock LB9 they feel like a rocket ship, and they are at lest 2000lbs heavier. It's nuts how far we've come.

 

A 100-shot added to that LG4 will keep those pesky ricers at bay


Edit: Oh crap, never mind......that T5 wouldn't last very long...lol!

 

Even The 2.0 Liter,Is Putting Out More HP Than Any Third Gen Ever Did.

 

My 2011 GMC Sierra w/6.2 was running 13.7 with CAI and Tune on 17's.
With 17/8" long tubes 13.4 ET's. That's fast as ***** in a 6K LB truck!

 

The car was 100% original last year.
Well the cars completely stripped now, shorty headers w/ straight pipes, with a performer intake(had a cast iron b4) mechanical quadrajet(my ccc qjet was beyond my skill set to fix) electric fan instead of clutch so hopefully this helps me out a little this year until my 355 gets done and I find a cheapish t56. It may not be fast but I Love sawing on the wheel to get her momentum up

 

Except the TTAs and Firehawks
Imagine the fun you could have with this motor swapped into a autocross 3rdgen or even just make it a dd.

 

Bottom line for me... No new mini van or grocery getter 4 door will ever make me smile like my 89 TPI Formula...

 

This is straight line acceleration... Our 3rd Gen's have MUCH better cornering ability than a soccer mom, especially with hi-performance after-market parts! Speaking of parts, you find all kinds for 3rd Gen still available. But Hell, I can't even find an ignition key lock cylinder for my 1999 Geo anymore.
Point being, do not look down on a 3rd GenCamaro/Firebird just cuz you read some new tech BS. Consider that 'black box' recorder in your new Camaro's, and then consider also the prices of the vehicles are absolutely outrageous.
On a side note, it is sorta cool to see a BARE 5th Gen Camaro body for sale in the 3rd market for ~$15K?... How sweet would it be to see a 3rd Gen Camaro body manufactured by aftermarket. Surely the demand would be there, because the bodies are 2nd rate only to the Corvette's.

 

What exactly is the problem with modding a TPI or LG4? I could be missing the finer point of this thread, but doesn't the whole hot rodding hobby revolve around the idea of modding/fixing/restoring something that you don't HAVE to mod/fix/restore? I was in high school during the "thirdgen" era, so to ME....that was my golden age. Now it doesn't make my 89 the same value as a 69, but it's what I want, and that's why I do it. Now it's not a great financial investment, but are there many of us "doing it" for the investment? Again, maybe I missed the finer point.

 

I think those maintaining their 3rd gens to meet strict OEM standards for car shows, without any mods, do it out of love like the rest of us. But, We (modders AND stockers) just like the way it performed the day we first got in it after we bought a 3rd Gen....

I would be tempted to say the Modders do it for the love of the vehicle and not so much from an investment point of view. Where as the OEM/Stockers guys do it more for investment...

EDIT: It could probably argued that Modders do spend WAY more $$$ on their rides than the Stockers. Just for the fun of it.

 

A healthy engine build will do the same thing. You drop 400+hp in a 3rd gen and you have formidable performance car. There is no way that any factory stock grocery getter can even hope to keep up with my 87. I know because I work on these cars everyday as a profession. With AWD they might get by me off the line, but by half track I'll be blowing past them. It's a ridiculous comparison.

The only 60s-70s muscle car that kept up with me at the dragstrip was my friend's 72 Chevelle 454 build with 450hp. The new SS Camaro is just a hair faster than my 87. I'll cure that this summer when I install a Pro Flo XT intake, which should be good for another 50hp.

While I respect those who keep their cars original, for me atleast, the real value of the 3rd gen and the reason I chose this platform for my project car is its great potential. A chassis and suspension, even on a value priced mass produced platform, that rivals exotics for aerodynamics, cornering, and high speed stability. As far as factory stock power goes, in 1987, even with the progress of EFI, the OEMs did not yet have the ability to build a high performance engine that would comply with federal emissions standards. As technology progresses, engine output per cu in also increases, along with fuel efficiency. Even today, with all this technology, the real performance cars still rely on supercharging to make the power.

As the OEMs progress, so does the performance aftermarket. No matter how hot the OE cars get, you can still build an engine, using readily available parts, that will smoke anything coming out of the factories. How about a 620+hp NA small block chevy that makes good driveable torque and runs on pump gas. It's not a cheap build but neither is a new GM performance car.

And while I work on these new cars all the time, I would warn anyone thinking of buying one to beware gasoline direct injection, or its high performance brother gasoline turbo direct injection. GTDI is the key reason you see such high power per cu in numbers from engines like GM's 2.0. I see these engines dropping like flies, because like so many other new ideas, the OEMs have rushed this system into production in competition with each other and there are still alot of bugs to be worked out.

 

Those late 60's and early 70's muscle cars back then were pure performance compared to everything else on the road. Many also had 4 wheel drum brakes, manual steering, cloth seats, no cruise control, no AC, etc, etc and on bias ply tires.

By modern technology standards, electronic engine management etc, todays cars, even the V6 powered one can far outperform those old muscle cars but there's also a downside.

I've seen a 1970 454 Chevelle pulling a loaded enclosed car trailer down the highway with no problems. Even though a new Mustang, Camaro or mini van may outperform those older cars on the track, very few unless they're classified as a truck even have a provision to haul a trailer and if they do, it's only a lightweight utility trailer.

Unibody construction and a lack of big V8 torque doesn't put them in the same class as the older cars.

You also have to remember that those high HP performance cars back in the late 60's were financially out of reach for most consumers. Most Mustangs and Camaros back then came with an inline 6 or a small V8. The base engine for a 68-70 Charger was only the tiny 318.

Want to go buy a high HP Camaro/Mustang/Charger today? After seeing the price tag, many say they'll just go with a low end entry level model. It was the same back in the 60's. A $6,000 fully loaded muscle car was a lot of money when you might have been making $3000/year.

 

I've got almost 3k in a $800 car that when I'm done with it will be worth oh I'd how say upwards of $700. Not a very good investment but the time spent wrenching and driving the car is priceless

 

Who am I kidding this car doesn't make it past me😁

 

LOL. I have about 30K invested in mine, and I'm still working on it. By the time I'm done, I'll probably be past 40K. Granted some of that is redoing what was done 15 years ago in the first build. When I spread the investment out over the time I've had the car, it's not even car payments on a new one.

I know it will never be worth anywhere close to what I've invested to anyone but me. But then again, what am I gonna do? Buy a new SS? 40K would barely pay for a car that would never be to me what this car, that I built with my own hands, is.

My 87 already runs side by side with the new SS, maybe just a few ponies behind. A new intake and injectors ($1,200 worth) will cure that. By the time I'm done, while it won't stand up to a new LT5 Vette, it will be well ahead of most performance vehicles on the street and certainly alot faster than anything in the 40K price range. Plus, it's my own work, no other car will be the same.

When I'm finally done with it, it'll go to one of my sons. I'll never sell it for any price.

 

It's not just the raw horsepower that is exciting in an old car - it's a total sensory overload!

You can feel the grain of the road through the tires (I prefer bias plys on my old cars), the steering isn't muted through a rack & pinion, there are no ABS brakes or traction control systems that "compensate" for your pedal actions.

You can smell the oil, not to mention the gasoline and sometimes the antifreeze as the water pump weeps a little.

You can hear the secondaries open when you mash the pedal, the scream of air through a shaker or Ram Air setup, the tires straining to grip the road, losing their battle only to regain it a few feet later as you feather the pedal. The growl of an M22, the gears meshing together, the click of the linkage as you move through them. The squeak your seat makes or the clutch fork or the door latch as it locks in place, or the burble of the exhaust as the car waits, impatiently as you close the garage behind you after you've pulled out.

The glow of the guages at dusk, the dance of the needle in the hood tach, the glow of the old flip face AM/FM with the red dot twinkling as it tries to hold that stereo signal. The tire smoke as it rolls up your door & in the open window, the fog as it swirls around in your wake, filling the void you just punched in it.

I can't think about driving an old car without smiling about it & the third gens aren't that far enough removed that they have lost all of that feeling. I've had some of my worst days made better at the end by coming home and grabbing a set of keys. 20 minutes in an old car is more than enough to set my troubles at ease.

 

Sounds like we're on different ends of the third gen spectrum lol. I'd love to dump some serious coin in my car but finances blah blah blah but I think were on the same page though. I've wanted this car since my dad had one when I was a kid and while it's no terror it's great to row through the 5spds and listen to the motor fight for 5k. This car has a rough life ahead of it but I did save it from a slumber since 96 so it kinda owes me

 

Since this thread has no place in this forum - or any other forum on this site ( IMO ) - and I'm guessing it will get closed, so here's my before the Axe falls,.........

No Kiddin' !? No one was sure how you felt about this,..... you only post it in every 3rd/4th post you write. Hopefully from now on you will just insert a link to this thread and quit polluting threads every time you read some 20 year old kid asking a newbie ? about an intake swap.

Maybe for you,... I'd dare to bet that the VAST MAJORITY of the members on THIS website to NOT agree. Nor have the 20 or so people that have driven out of my driveway in their new-to-them Thirdgen. In fact; I would argue exactly the opposite is true for most members here. Why?? Because most of the guys wrenching on 80's F-Bodies days don't care 1-bit about the 60's cars. Most were not even alive in the 60's, never driven in a 60's ( or 70's car for that matter ) and those 60's cars are so out of the average Joes price range,... they tend to buy & "restore" what they can afford. When they decide to buy a $3,000 Z28 then "restore" their new-to-them Thirdgen by removing something old/beat and install something shiny/new the last thing they need is a troll crapping on their threads about how they are wasting their time and effort because their "insert plain-Jane POS here" isn't worth anything ! It's worth something to them - and that is ALL THAT COUNTS.


If people want to reminisce about a 60's Camaro, a 2016 Acura, Please get out of out of this Thirdgen F-Body Tech/General Engine forum and go find one of those sites to troll and bad-mouth us from there. This isn't the place to bash Thirdgen owners because you feel that "modding a TPI or LG4 " is a problem.

 

Time to get over it. The 350 sucks wind too gents. It's about the style of these machines. Not the power. Can we all move on. Thanks and hope you enjoy your 3rd gen nostalgia as much as I do.

 

I really love this post.
I'm going to save it in the same folder as the " "Camaro Creed".
Thank You....


"For me,there's nothing like sliding into the cockpit of my Third Generation Camaro"

 

Im with the above. I took some college classmates for a ride in my dad's 67 SS chevelle after a car show one time. They all have had faster cars or rode in faster cars, but none had ever rode in anything remotely older.

Im not sure what they expected out of the ride, but they all agreed that they could see why I liked it, the feel of the car was completely different then what they were used to.

 

THAT...is EXACTLY my point!

 

Well said! I grewn up to 80s cars and I love em. That was my "Golden Age" and probably to most people on this board. I drive a 3rd gen because I like it, not because its an investment or the "fastest" car out there. Most people cant feasibly afford a 60s muscle car. A 3 or 4 thousand dollar 3rdn gen suits me just fine!

 

That is entirely your opinion, and I don't agree with it.

I do not hide the fact that I am eagerly awaiting my 2016 Focus RS. Many here don't agree with it. Why would I put down $40k on a Focus, some consider me insane, either because they are brand nut swingers, or just because the Focus is a Focus.

But the same reasoning applies. Why did people pay $30k for a TTA, or even $65k for a Firehawk. Its because of what those cars represented. Its the same reasons people will pay $70k for a new GT350, and I'll pay $40k for a Focus with an RS badge. These cars are gem's built for the driver. And the halo that surrounds them now will still be present 3, 4, and 5 decades later.

 

Clearly you are not driving the right cars from this era.

I tell you, that feeling is not GONE. Drive a GT350 (if you can find a dealer that will let you), or a new Camaro. Heck my Focus ST represents that idea. ITs an unapologetic hatch with an excessive personality problem. It likes swinging the tail out and dog legging it around corners.

New cars are so good that MFGs are putting the brat back into the car. The GT350 is one special car to drive, I drove one in anger at Road America. And while the test drive was far too short, I enjoyed every second of it. That sweet 8200rpm cannot be denied.

Sadly I can sympathize with that. I have way too much money invested in my GTA, money I could have used for a better platform. Its a Love/Regret relationship. I love the car, dream car as a child, but getting in it and seeing all of its flaws? Its really time for a full interior strip and rebuild.

 

I drive my car just long enough every summer(about 2,500-3,000mi) to start feeling its flaws. The first drive every year, even just starting it up this last Saturday for a cob web removal session in the driveway, gives me chills. That built SBC roaring to life, the vibrations in the seat from the poly mounts, high compression and huge cam, oh yeah. When I get it out for the first drive this spring, at some point along the way, it will scare the pee out of me like it does every year. Still, as the summer wears on, driving my beasty on a daily basis, I will start to pick over its imperfections. Its need for paint, little glitches in the suspension and steering. The imperfections in the engine tune.

Still, it's all my work. Anything I feel is wrong is within my ability to remedy, whenever it bothers me enough to spend a little more money and time to resolve it. And, I don't make monthly payments on this beauty of a car. It's all mine. My payments are the $100+ that I stash away from each paycheck for parts for my planned upgrades and the money I make building race cars for friends on the weekends. I drove a new SS a few weeks ago with my buddy from the Chevy dealer next door. Yeah, it's an exciting ride, especially when you switch the VSC off. I still like my IROC better, and if it's not faster now, it will be by summer's end.

As far as all the 60s cars, the 63 fuely Vette museum piece I had in for a mechanical FI rebuild this last fall, the Mustang Mach1 351 Cleveland I rebuilt the top end on last summer, the 70 Chevelle SS LS6 museum piece I had in for supension and carb work last year, my IROC will run with anyone of them and beat all but the LS6 hands down. As far as the visceral effect of driving these cars, yeah I get it. I get the same feeling and more from my 87 IROC Z28.

 

I drive my car just long enough every summer(about 2,500-3,000mi) to start feeling its flaws. The first drive every year, even just starting it up this last Saturday for a cob web removal session in the driveway, gives me chills. That built SBC roaring to life, the vibrations in the seat from the poly mounts, high compression and huge cam, oh yeah. When I get it out for the first drive this spring, at some point along the way, it will scare the pee out of me like it does every year. Still, as the summer wears on, driving my beasty on a daily basis, I will start to pick over its imperfections. Its need for paint, little glitches in the suspension and steering. The imperfections in the engine tune.

Still, it's all my work. Anything I feel is wrong is within my ability to remedy, whenever it bothers me enough to spend a little more money and time to resolve it. And, I don't make monthly payments on this beauty of a car. It's all mine. My payments are the $100+ that I stash away from each paycheck for parts for my planned upgrades and the money I make building race cars for friends on the weekends. I drove a new SS a few weeks ago with my buddy from the Chevy dealer next door. Yeah, it's an exciting ride, especially when you switch the VSC off. I still like my IROC better, and if it's not faster now, it will be by summer's end.

As far as all the 60s cars, the 63 fuely Vette museum piece I had in for a mechanical FI rebuild this last fall, the Mustang Mach1 351 Cleveland I rebuilt the top end on last summer, the 70 Chevelle SS LS6 museum piece I had in for supension and carb work last year, my IROC will run with anyone of them and beat all but the LS6 hands down. As far as the visceral effect of driving these cars, yeah I get it. I get the same feeling and more from my 87 IROC Z28.[/QUOTE]


Well said Doc!!!

 

You missed my point entirely.

 

I've been saying that type of thing for ages.

But the idea of a 4 banger swap offends most people on this forum.

I LOVE the SuperDuty Firebird concept that GM built in the early 80's. 2700lbs, and 272hp from an Iron Duke.

 

If you don't think modern cars have personality, then you are driving the wrong cars. In truth the old cars had horrible feedback, the chassis were vague, the brakes **** poor, and about they only thing they did that compares with a new car like the GT350 and Camaro SS is the engine note.

But thats technology. And I'd rather move forward than keep looking back.

 

You are fully entitled to your opinion, but you won't change mine. I drive old cars because they are un-refined, because they are crude, because they leak, because they can't hold the road, because they are so brutally mechanical. I can appreciate the newer cars and had a Mustang GT convertible for a number of years, an A4 Quatro that was fun, a Firehawk Formula 6 spd and could go out today and buy any one of the new offerings if I chose - but that's not what appeals to me.

Your insistence that I am driving the wrong cars is not only subjective, but inaccurate.

 

You guys are both right.


New cars are superior in every way.


The appeal of an old car is in it's lack of refinement, a reminder of how it used to be. And of course the styling, which was set by design creativity that complied with the lenient safety criteria of the day.


Sometimes I'll light up an old Coleman gas lamp. It's dirty, stinky, noisy and takes some maintenance to keep it functional. If I have the time, it's more fun to be inconvenienced than to simply flip the switch on a 100W light bulb. Boring.

 

LIGHT BULB? LOL. You mean LED right? Or are you still stuck in the 10yr distant past?

New cars are superior in every way except what they expect you to pay for them.

 

Agreed, when people ask me if my TPI car is fast, I say yes, for a mid 90's car

 

What is painfully clear from this conversation.....some people live and die by performance numbers......others couldn't care less!

 

I love this thread. My wife and I drive new vehicles for daily drivers. My Silverado, nor her Buick Lacrosse putting out an impressive 303 hp (from a dang v6) with every bell and whistle imaginable is as fun to drive as a good old thirdgen!
For several months I had my eyes on many different 60's, 70's era muscle cars. She knew I wanted an old car to restore or restomod, and she knew I had saved the money to get just the right one. You guys should have seen the look on her face when I trailered home some random 1983 Camaro! She thought I had went off the deep end! The wife is from Switzerland, and a good 6 years younger than me. She didnt even know what the car was when I got it...lol
A few thousand dollars worth of refinement is what it took for her to not be embarrased to be seen in it, and another few thousand is what it is going to take for me to be able to look at the ricers in the rearview! Could I have bought a clean 72 Chevelle I had my eye on? Yep, it was in my budget, but I grew up in the 80's! I will never forget that silver and blue pacecar Camaro rolling around the track making its debut. I fell in love with them instantly. Wrenching, polishing, and sinking money into these cars that we love is NOT the same thing as going and buying a new....cough....Focus lol Or any other new vehicle for that matter. I can dig the HP numbers coming from the new Camaros, Challengers, Mustangs etc.....but when you feel like your in your living room while driving it, and it feels like it is driving itself with Onstar, antilocks, electronic suspension monitor, etc it is NOT the same! When I drive the old Camaro, I KNOW I'm driving it.
And just to cap this off....when did torque and seat of your pants take-off thrill start to fail with these newer cars? Seems all of the HP is in the upper rpms and doesnt necessarily slam you into your seat like the L98 cars did when they were new

 

Ive never heard it put better........

 

I don't mind all the power in the upper RPMs. The new Camaro SS will certainly slam your head into the head rest if you floor it from idle. Trust me, it doesn't lack for torque. The new Gen5 LT1 makes more torque, and carries that torque further than the L98 does.

When the L98 is making 300lb/ft @ 2000rpm, the LT1 is making 350lb/ft. The L98's mid-range rises to about 350lb/ft, but the LT1 still makes more torque still. And when the L98 falls off the log, the LT1 gives you another kick in the head, bringing torque up to 400lb/ft till 5000rpm before starting to fall off.

L98 from this forum. https://www.thirdgen.org/forums/tpi/...ml#post2231082


Compared to LT1 Dyno sheet

 

From a dead stop when I floored the new Camaro SS it really didn't impress me too much either until around 60mph then it just pulled its @$$ off.

 

I think PURELYPMD hit the nail on the head.

 

 

@ PurelyPMD - Absolutely poetic post! Almost brought a tear to my eye.

I love working on my 92, and all winter long I look forward to driving it again come spring. My brother is into turbo DSMs and his Talon will easily spank my Camaro all over a track, but even he agrees that there's is no comparison in the aesthetics between the 2 cars. My dad has a 67 Corvette roadster. When the side pipes begin making noise, even though you can't hear yourself think cause the top is down, there is no better sound in the world.

 

Thanks guys.

My 2014 5.7 Toyota Tundra has 381 HP and over 400 TQ and although it is brutally fast, it does not provide me with the same driving experience as one of my old cars. I have a ton of respect for what the car company's are producing these days, and wouldn't mind owning a few of them, but will always defer to my older iron when I want to DRIVE.

 

You are so right on this! Horse power, torque ratio, traction control, it all is just modern technology. My wifes Benz, My sons Silverado. they all got better everything. They don't bring a smile to my face as when I am driving the Z! I just told a co worker that the BEST 15-20 min. a day(depending on traffic) is my ride home. Top down, radio cranking and as fast as I can go through the roundabouts! What a feeling. I could care less about the riceburner sitting next to me. You can shaw me all the camparison charts you want...that does not bring that SEG to my face.

 

I think ALOT of people COMPLETELY missed my point.

Regardless of whether 60s muscle cars, 80s ... smoggers, 201x whatever, are "better" than each other, in whatever way you might choose, my point is that the buying public simply stopped caring about it in 1972. That mentality is GONE, went away BEFORE our cars existed and they therefore never benefited from it, and all of those present-day cars that are arguably "better" at exactly what muscle cars are said to excel at - pure acceleration and power - ALSO never will benefit from it. I seriously doubt that there's any songs on the radio right now about Camry XSE or whatever that it, for example. Contrast that with the ones about GTO, 409, deuce coupe, Mustang, .... the list just goes on. PEOPLE JUST DON'T CARE the same way they used to. The public's thrill with cars as some kind of manifestation of collective American ego and superiority and all that, is OVER. Was OVER in about 1972. That's not just something you can blow off as "opinion".

I don't recall at any point saying ANY of the things that have been put in my keyboard up there by all these people telling us stuff like "well he must be wrong because I like my car" or "my car is loud and smelly and crude so that makes it exciting". If that's what peels your banana, then by all means GO FOR IT. Just don't expect that the rest of the general public is going to agree.

What I DID say was in essence, that if you're going to try to make your car "fast", here's what you're up against TODAY; and that if a BRAND NEW car that's "fast" to the extent that it beats the "old standards" doesn't excite the public enough to make a dent in the market, then that says something about THE CULTURE around cars and how it has changed.

It's been pretty interesting reading the responses from people that just don't "get it".