I've been taking a long, hard look at the ZZ383 and I have a couple of other threads on ThirdGen about that.

https://www.thirdgen.org/forums/tech...questions.html

https://www.thirdgen.org/forums/carb...selection.html

The only thing that concerns me about the "Fast Burn" (Vortec) heads is the very limited number of manifold choices available

 

That motor is over priced anyway. It uses a gm 3.800" crank which is 1100 by itself, not worth it! A good forged crank can be had under 750

 

Who has decent-priced motors with warranty's ?

 

Better question - who has decent priced crate engines with a warranty that have a great reputation for durability and a nationwide dealer network for warranty support. (sucks to have to go send an engine back for mail-order warranty when there is a GM dealer in every big town...) For an engine that he says will do as many miles in a year then having a warranty or a reliable engine is more important than peak HP....

While I agree that the engine cost more than what you can build yourself and of course there are parts choices that you would choose different, but would anyone buy a "377 stroker" from GM when everyone else is advertising 383 strokers?? (Mercruiser had a GM 377" engine in their performance line with the 3.750" crank and stock bore for a while...)

The reason someone should go GM crate engine is for the quality, support, and warranty. If you don't need *all* of those then go anywhere you want.

 

My thoughts, too.

 

Not all gm motors are ultra high quality since they are mass produced but i agree its hard to pass up that warranty. I have heard good and bad about some gm crates, my neighbor down the street had few issues with a zz4. Just frustrating to know you overpay for the parts tho with the gm 383

 

Of course, if I were to "scatter" a ZZ383 on the Drag Strip, I seriously DOUBT that GM would just "send a replacement right out" - LOL !

 

Dave - you might find this a interesting read:Port Volumes


http://www.enginebuildermag.com/Arti...t_volumes.aspx

 

Gary,

Thanks for the link, sir !

From the info there, it seems to me like the best heads for a street 383 are 195cc-200cc port volumes. I am checking out the AFR 195's and a couple of others to compare.

 

Yup cant go wrong with 195's. My 383 was strong to 7k with 195's and right sized cam. Peak power was in the 6200-6400 range and curve was flat to 6600-6800. A 400 would likely want 200-210's to do the same thing but you can use the 195's on a sub 6000 rpm 400 for very strong response and power. My turbo car with 195's and 400 cubes was an animal. ~650-700 whp before 5500 rpm and over 800lbft torque diesel like

I would look at either of those two motors, 383 or 400, and a 195-200 afr or pro filer or dart pro 1 head. 5.7" rods or so as long as rings arent in wrist pin. Let it eat! Mild lobe cam with duration between 224-230 deg depending on cubes and you should end up with a powerful street motor that will last a long while.

 

Sounds like exactly what I'm looking for . . .

As far as I can tell, 5.7" rod combinations don't put the wrist pin into the oil ring gap, as long as the stroke doesn't exceed 3.875" . . . I'm looking at the 3.75" stroke.

I still have that DART SHP block in the back of my mind. It would be a strong, easy way to build a dependable 400 . . . I'm torn between the 383 and 400.

 

383 using gm late model roller block is cheaper. 400 shp makes best sense for 400 cubes but is expensive. Overkill for your goals but it is a new block and roller cam equipped. You want long term durability you need hyd roller. I think a 383 will be all you need for this build and be 1800$ cheaper

 

Dave-the link I left for you was for illustration purposes of the 6" rods.Let me warn you that articles like that might be engines that have only peaky torque and hp curves.What you want to do is be sure you set the quench correctly for .040 and learn everything you can about cam timing so you end up with a engine @ SCR of 9.5 with steel heads or aluminum @ 10.5 with a DCR of 8.5 that will run on today's gas.That cam should provide you on the street a broad torque and hp curve at the lowest RPM possible so you can enjoy the money you spend everytime you drive the car.More often than not those rpm ranges are between 2,500 to 3,000 grand.Those are normal cruise rpm's so a 6500 peak hp doesn't help your cause on bit.

 

Agreed ... I have been looking at a Hydraulic Roller Cam right from the beginning. The SHP block would only be for the larger engine. 383 makes the most sense .

Sometimes that "more is better bug" takes over - LOL !

 

After being in small cube revving engines and going to big cube motors, i can tell you if you can swing the cost, go for it. But a 400 generally makes more sense for a guy looking for the most streetable low 11 sec car lol. If you cam small and put on good 195-200 cc heads, they make tons of torque and can be a tire roast show when you are fooling around on the street and would likely use more fuel, if mileage is any concern lol. Its fun as hell but can become alittle annoying when you have to fight traction all the time. Its overkill for 12 sec daily driver status. A 350 will do that easily

 

Now, since it looks like I'm going to go with a mild 383, the question of Transmission comes up.

I still have 3 TH-400's left over from my "Chevelle Days" (25 years ago - LOL !), but the OD of a 700-R4 sure looks nice from an mpg standpoint.

Th 700-R4 has a deep 1st gear (too deep, I think, personally), which would allow less rear end gear to be run, too.

In my original plans, the stock 10-Bolt would be exchanged for a Strange S60 Dana with 3.73 gears ( 3.54 is their highest ratio). The other option would be a 12-Bolt, which would give me strength and access to more Ring & Pinion ratios. I don't want to even "consider" a 9" Ford rear end . . .

THOUGHTS ?

 

My .02cents
I'd skip the Dana 60, its big, heavy, and takes the most power to run.

Since you don't want a 9" go with a 12bolt. That will be plenty strong for your mild 383.

If your thinking of going with a th400, your wasting power like with the dana 60. (Unless you want to spend big bux on a Kilgor th400)
If your a track only car, I'd use the 700r4 and have it built with a kit from Dana at Probuilt.

 

Sooo in reading this, they put bigger heads on a motor that had a cam built for smaller heads, headers that were to small for even a 305 and it made less power? ... well that's no surprise.
That would be like putting a 165cc head on a motor that was built for a bigger head without changing anything else. It would also be a complete turd.
This proves a few things but it's important to see, the company needed to sell some over stock smaller/mid sized heads for mild street motors.

Most importantly, ANY engine build needs to be optimized for your budget and intended use by the owner for it to be a real useful super fun powerplant.

This is a semi blueprint of how I built my 400 stroker , with a bit more CI, head CCs, compression, solid roller cam and a few other little things tho.

http://www.popularhotrodding.com/tec...e/viewall.html

 

I might consider a 9" ("F-word") rear, but I'd need a pretty good reason to get it over a 12-Bolt.

Also, I have read that the S60 Dana was MORE efficient . . . What was your source of info ? Thanks !

My car will be 99% street-driven, BUT I am definitely interested in keeping the transmission in ONE PIECE !

This "item" by TCI caught my attention . . .

http://www.tciauto.com/tc/1987-92-gm...ve-bodytm.html

 

GM Hightech mag did a rwhp dyno test of stock, 12 bolt, 9" and S60.
S60 took something like 13more rwhp to spin than the 9" and the 9" was 3-4 rwhp more than the 12bolt.
I'd have to dig to find that again.
S60 is massive and will take the abuse 4 sure but its large.

 

I was just reading this article by Car Craft comparing the S60, 12-Bolt, and 9" Ford rear ends.

http://www.carcraft.com/techarticles...p/viewall.html

 

One of the best tests I've seen yet and the only one I've seen to show that the S60 takes less power than the 9".
Camaro Craft as a long history of knocking fords a lil bit..

More info digging will be needed on this subject!

 

I'd run a 700R4 and a fresh 10 bolt using latemodel zexel torsen diff from a SS/WS6 ls1 fbody. 3.42's-3.73's all you need.

You are talking 450 hp at most with a lower rpm, smaller head motor that will see 10-15K a year for several years. 10 bolt will hold an auto trans

If you dont wanna test it, go 12 bolt. Do not need anything bigger or stronger. It takes ALOT to break one of those rears in a auto car. Usually trans will wear out or driveshaft will break first

 

Yes . . . Indeed it will !

Thanks !

 

A difference of opinion is what makes these forums work.So yours is certain normal operating procedure.

But for the record I know as a matter of fact the comic book articles from Popular Hot Rodding,Hot Rod and alike as simply vehicles to sell parts for their advertisers.Their tests are as a matter of fact are not to be believed.Where as Engine Builder Mag is a trades articles and this one is supported by David Vizard(and yes there is some of his stuff I don't agree with) for the use of people making a living building engines.

My only point here is there a huge difference between the two.

I'll actually give you a example.A good friend of mine took a job on to do a dyno test for one of the comic books.(he has asked me to leave which one unnamed)He is located in Ohio.He went through 10 sets of aluminum brand name heads before he found a set he could use.Loss his butt in labor costs while he waited for a good set to be sent to him.Did any of that show up in the article??. Nope!!!. He swear never again.

 

David V is a very smart guy no doubt.
I do agree on most of the stories in the "comic book" mags being a back rub back to the advertisers. (I worked in a shop that developed some parts and advertised in some of those mags so I know 1st hand how it works)
The PHR stories about the engine masters are about some of the best builders around and how they build motors within a certain set of rules. Not just selling advertisers parts like most stories.
The story I linked to was the teardown of Tony Bs motor after the competition was over, not just a "hey build this motor and dyno it" story.
In reading the small head vs big head story, you have to admit there is no reason for a "large" head to be on that engine combo at all. Every other part on that combo is choking the krap out of them.
That motor was clearly setup to showcase the small to mid size heads and that is just fine. They left quite a bit of power on the table by choking those big heads.

As anyone knows, ANY combo needs to be properly thought out with a budget and your goals even b4 the build begins or you'll end up very unhappy.

 

Precisely what I am doing by "airing out" ideas and getting advice and suggestions . . . Mama didn't raise no "fool" - LOL !

I'm really learning and re-learning a lot from you guys. I really appreciate your help and your "patience".

Dynamic Compression Ratio is fascinating, but I'm running into "roadblocks", when cam manufacturers don't have Cam Cards available online so I can easily compare IVC numbers to calculate DCR.

 

I on purpose built a "peanut" intake runner 383(180cc) so off idle to 3500 was all in torque wise.Real close to 500 lbs of torque and hp all in by 4500 to 5000 grand. It's primary function is towing and some cruise street light battles for fun.Cam for a EFI with lobe centers in the range of 112 for ease of tuning.Not much over lap with a SCR 9.3ish.Taking some 72 cc heads and milling them down to 67cc to get the SCR. Hyro roller cam.

See I have been in the trades for a very long time. We used to have dinner with these guys(manufactures) after the Indy auction where they where there to sell off their last yrs over-stocks.Some which we bought.The conversations at that was a education you couldn't buy. Still one day I would like to attend one of Vizard's classes at Ohio-U.I'm not really a big fan of his,but he was have some valid points.I do think along the way someone got to him $$$ and gave him a agenda to push the junk parts he praises all the time.

Dave before you buy any cam,call them up and ask for the spec's. Same case for heads.You know some of the head companies spec's for intake runners is a + or - factor.The volumes for heads can and will be effected by if or how much the valves are sunk into the heads.Even if you have a head company do the port work for you with a 5 axis CNC port job,it is still advisable to verify what work was done by a competent flow bench head company. Have then print out what they find in case there is a issue.And yes it is worth it even for a street driven mid 383 like yours. My point here is your build plan is meaningless unless you got what you planned for and paid for. Yep piston ring land height will change camber volumes.That does effect DCR's. Aside from final finish of bores being sized correctly,it is one of the reasons why you want your machine shop to have the intended pistons in hand.That way they can adjust the deck height correctly.And take into account you quench goals of .040.

One thing leads to the other in a matched parts build.The pay-off is it will be consistent and last the longest mileage wise. We have one out in the field now for about 10 yrs now.Never been freshen.Has just short of 200,000 miles.Still guys rave about how much of a bad a$$ it is and has always been.

 

I am doing a lot of reading and research. I really appreciate everyone's help and patience !

 

I just got my new pistons for my 383 and they have 1.140 compression height for 6" rods. My block deck height is 9.015 so 1.875 + 6" +1.140= 9.015 zero deck height

 

Your Wrist Pin is in the Oil Ring, right ?

Can you post a pic?

Thanks !

 

Stock deck height is 9.025??.

 

Dave now there is a piston company that makes 6" rod pistons that doesn't need ring spacers.The pin height is adjusted to that. Trying to remember the brand name for that. But if you Google search for it you'll find it or maybe someone will chime in to tell us who it is.LOL-yeah at the moment having a senior moment.

 

I have been searching with no luck . . . I'm curious how they are able to keep the Wrist Pin out of the Oil Ring Groove . . . The only way I can think of is if they are using an aftermarket "Tall Deck" block, which would be WAY out of budget, not to mention unable to use a conventional Oil Filter, etc.