Confuzed1

iTrader: (4)

Ouch! You just made my head hurt….

But really, thanks a bunch for all the info! Guess I need to read up to fully wrap my head around it, but I'm sure I'll overcome.

-So installed height is a measurement from the head deck to the top of the spring I assume. Only way I know of that can vary is by valve stem length or by the use of different types of retainers. (maybe how many times the seat has been cut on too?)

-Coils touching each other equals coil bind..bad thing..should have .010 clearance between each coil at max lift...got it.

So to break this down, all those other numbers are all based on a particular installed height. If you have a different installed height, everything will change slightly.

-I would assume the important numbers are what the pressure is at max lift along with what pressure is holding the valve on it's seat. Too low of a spring pressure at a high rpm and I could float the valves and cause damage if my lift were high, and if my seating pressure were too low, I guess that could cause the valves not to seat properly??

In either case, I'm running the same cam your Dad has, so it sounds like I'm fine!

Why they base everything on a .600 lift is beyond me…how many people are really running that high a lift? Aside from strip cars like yours possibly...

I did glance at the rating for the Harland's, and I "think" it was well over 700 pounds….which sounds like a lot to me for a piece of aluminum….

Looks like I have a little reading to do! Thx again!

Procharged GTA

Installed height of a valve spring is the measurement from the spring seat to the bottom outer edge of the retainer. Valve length, spring seats either cut or shimmed, reatainers/locks, and even a valve job all will have effect of valve spring installed height. Those springs that are coming with your heads should be good to go for your application the way they are delivered to you, in fact when ordering the rockers, I would probably step up to 1.6 ratio, instead of the 1.5's. With 1.5's you will have the .502" intake/.520" exhaust lift that is advertised for the NX276HR. With the 1.6's you would have .535" intake/.555" exhaust lift, perfect for your head flow IMO. Your heads should be setup to use them already, and you would get an increase in lift over the 1.5's, it would really work well with those higher flowing AFR heads, and blower motors love lift. Not all valve springs are rated at .600" lift. We run .776" lift in our drag radial car, but it is of course a solid roller setup, they are advertised to be setup at 2.10" installed height (which is the case with ours) they have 332 lbs on the seat@2.10" installed height, they have 949 lbs open pressure@1.200" (which would be at .900" lift) and coil bind at 1.130". This means 2.10" installed height -1.130" coil bind = .970" lift - .070" for clearance = .900" safe max lift. Now, since we only run .776" lift, at full lift we are only smashing the spring from its 2.10 installed height to a 1.325" at full lift, 2.10 - 1.325 = .776" lift, so therfore we don't have 949 lbs of open pressure, we have probably closer to 880 or so. And we can figure how much clearance we have before coil bind also. Since we only run .776" lift with a spring that is capable of .900" here is how to do that math.... 1.325(.776"lift) - 1.130 (coil bind) = .195" clearance (plenty). Now there is theory's about having to much clearance and causing "Spring Surge"....i wouldn't let this worry you too much, we have seen NO ill effects with it. Sorry for the long post, I start explaining and I can't stop... LOL It sounds like you have everything else Exact just about... hope this helps a little more!

Brian

Procharged GTA

Ok, I figured out what clearance you would have before coil bind when using a 1.6 rocker..... you would have .555" lift with the 1.6 on the exhaust, so you would only be smashing the spring down to a 1.255" from its 1.810" installed height.... 1.810" installed height - .555" lift = 1.255"..... so then you take the 1 255" - 1.080" coil bind = .175" clearance....plenty!

Brian

Confuzed1

iTrader: (4)

I had actually thought about 1.6 ratio rockers….let me ask a probably dumb question though. Would it move where I make TQ and HP further up the RPM range? As you know, even though these are neat and pretty efficient blowers…I don't want to risk outrunning it..if that makes sense.

-I opened up the box from Dart….a thing of beauty I tell you!!

Sorry, I didn't take it out. Gonna be hard enough already to load this in my S-10 to get it to the machine shop…

Procharged GTA

Not a dumb question at all.... The 1.6's in reality will tend to change the power curve very very little, it wouldn't even be noticeable from the seat of your pants, but as far as power in the upper range, it will love the 1.6's, combined with those heads, it will really breath good up top. Even though I'm pretty big into the race stuff....I'm still very avid about keeping the parts to a street level to retain good part throttle drivability and response with any street build, hence my recommendation of the 195 head over the 210 You will be fine going to the 1.6's..... and since you have to buy new anyway, that's would be what I would do, they both cost the same....

BTW..... Nice pics!!! Those blocks sure are purty!!.......

Brian

Confuzed1

iTrader: (4)

OK! Sounds like a win-win....but...and there's always a "BUT" lol....when I described using AFR heads to my favorite machine shop, he even said "those are great heads, just too bad no one makes AFR pistons"....

He followed by stating that there might be piston-to valve clearance issues in lifts above .500

The one obvious difference in AFR's over the rest is intake valve size compared to others, so I kinda get where he's coming from. The 195's have a 2.05 intake valve....the 210's even bigger at 2.08!! Since I'm getting the 195's, not a huge difference I imagine between the standard 2.02ish intake valve sizes others have compared to what I'm getting....so I suspect I'll need to verify piston to valve clearance if I opt for these 1.6 ratio rockers to ensure I don't have clearance issues....

I don't anticipate clearance issues, but if my exhaust valve is going to be stroking .555.....that's more lift than I'm used to. BUT...I'm running SRP pistons with an inverted dome with valve reliefs (21cc's)....so that should help a lot with clearance I'd think?

I guess what I'm getting at, I'd just hate to get the 1.6 rockers just to discover I have clearance issues....thoughts?

Procharged GTA

I understand completely.....One thing to keep in mind is just because you increase lift from .520" to .555" by going to 1.6 rockers, does not mean you will have .035" less piston to valve clearance, and here is why... When the camshaft reaches max lift were you gain the .035" lift, the piston is already headed back down the cylinder away from the valve. The piston is closest to the valve BEFORE the cam reaches max lift,usually between 10 and 20 degrees BTDC is where the piston and valves will be closest together, so in reality, there will usually only be around .012"-.015" difference in piston to valve clearance over the 1.5 because with the shape of a cam lobe, the 1.6 doesn't make near as much difference over the 1.5 at say .200" lift, but keeps gaining more and more over the 1.5 as lift increases.... Hope that makes sense

I would think with your -21 cc inverted domes,i believe you'll have plenty of piston to valve clearance....The lobes on this camshaft aren't all that aggressive...... but I do see where you are coming from, and that's good to think about things like this.

Brian

Confuzed1

iTrader: (4)

Brian - Thanks one again for the advice! It's nice to get some input from someone that's dealt with this type of engine build….and no, I know I'm not building a alcohol burning 1/8th miles terror…but I know you just got done helping your dad out with a very simular build on his 383!...

BTW, If there's anyone else out there too that has any good tips do do this build right the first time, chime in!!

Spoke again to my machine shop, and they've done a few of these Dart block builds. He tells me that Dart normally leaves a deck height of 9.030 or better so people can have the blocks decked to their setup. Right now, judging by the pistons I'm using he thinks he'll end up decking it to 9.005 - which should keep the pistons .005 in the hole to allow for growth. So - now I'm giving him mo money for decking…oh - and de-burring around the cam and main bearings too. I'm getting close to just asking him the price to just build the short block all together….it might end up being cheaper that way…but I do really prefer to build my own engine and do the grunt work myself.

-I find it relaxing in a weird kind of way.

I also gave him a list of all the additional parts I'm looking at to see if he can beat all the prices. I imagine he can beat the price on most of them, but I'll see…

And yes, I'm opting up for the 1.6 rockers instead of the 1.5 ratio ones…you talked me into it once again Brain!

EDIT: I may just start a new thread for my Dart 409 build since this one mostly involves me fumbling around and deciding on which way to go. I'm committed now…..my wife thinks I should be committed too!

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

.600 is the new thing these days quite common for hyd rollers now although most builds wont need that much

Procharged GTA

Your very welcome! I'm happy to be able to help out with what I can....Also, I'm glad I talked you into the1.6's, I think they would be best for the application. Decking the block to .005" in the hole is perfect, that's exactly the way I would build it

Brian

Confuzed1

iTrader: (4)

Hey -

I'm looking at changing oil pans along with all this other work I'm doing.

-The current pan I'm running is one of the cheapie Jeg's universal pans for a SBC…I only got the thing because it had 3 things I needed when I switched to a 400 sbc:

-a stroker style pan (to allow rear crank counterweight to clear pan rail)
-a Driver's side dip stick
-it was relatively cheap

Well, long story short, I later bought a set of Dyno Don's 1-3/4" primary shortie headers…and the Y-pipe wouldn't bolt up to the flanges because the oil pan sump was too deep right where the pipe runs under the pan.

I found out after I got his headers that his Y-pipe is designed around a stock 3rd Gen oil pan…..So I sent this pan back to don himself, and now this pan has been cut/hacked and re-welded back together so the Y-pipe would just barely fit. Problem is, it now only holds 3 quarts in the pan and 1 quart for the filter for 4 quarts total!!

-So you can see why I'm looking for another pan.

With this Dart block, it seems I can now run a dipstick tube on either side, so I'm not as restricted in that sense. If I choose to run a Pass side dipstick though, I will need to drill the hole for it.

SO HERE'S MY QUESTION:

Are there any pans out there that are the same dimensions as a stock 3rd Gen oil pan, will allow for a stroker crank?? I'm trying to not run a deep sump pan because my car is lowered.

Here's the only thing I found, but I'm concerned it might hang too low:
http://www.summitracing.com/parts/ctr-13-080m/overview/

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

Not sure how lowered is lowered but my canton deep sump pans 6 qts never went below k member. They have wider sumps than deepness so they fit nice

However in your case you may need to mod the y pipe to run behind pan under converter to make it all work with a typical stroker pan

IROCZ1989

iTrader: (1)

At your power level I would be looking at some long tubes. Stainles works makes a nice set. Im running a canton power pan which is a nice piece but pricy. Wouldnt skimp on the oil system with the money you have in the motor. To be honest Id dump the y pipe setup, your leaving alot on the table with the y pipe design. Take care.

Confuzed1

iTrader: (4)

Lowered as in I have Eibach Sportlines on the car….it's noticeably lowered for sure. A quick pic:
http://i865.photobucket.com/albums/a...zed2/043-1.jpg

After I posted this, I kept looking and found the Canton road race pan:http://www.summitracing.com/parts/ctr-15-244/overview/

This one actually looks even more promising since it's 1/2" shorter…but the sump is kicked out wider on each side….got a feeling that might be the one you're running? I have no convertor to worry about since it's a manual car. I'd think if it doesn't sit lower than the K-frame I might be fine. Guess I'll get under the car and take some very rough measurements to see if it might work.

IROCZ1989 - No way I'd even consider LT headers….too many ground clearance issues even with a stock height car with those, much less a lowered one.

-This won't be a high boost application, and I think I have one of the better shorty header setups out there…that along with the 3" Hooker cat back, I'd like to think the exhaust won't hold anything back.

IROCZ1989

iTrader: (1)

Just do a search on the stanless works/ hawks longtubes. I was very surprised at the fitment off the ground they tuck up underneath and actually are paralell with the unibody frame. Just check into them. I had dons headers and the long tubes from hawks actually fit better towards the brake lines and to the frame and pan. Not the typical super comp header fitment. Just dont see shorties on anything with that big a head with a decent rpm. Long tubes and no less than 4 inch mid pipe. Also look into the power pan which is same as the road race but with extra kickout on the oil sling side to catch oil so it doesnt hit the pan wall and back on crank. Considerable power gain if your going to turn rpm. Take care

Confuzed1

iTrader: (4)

Thanks for the advice! I'm not going to be turning any high RPM's with this particular build though...as I mentioned earlier in my post, it's a small roots blower build with a 5500 rpm max needed. My blower just won't support anything higher. About two years ago, I chassis dynoed with a too-small 650 carb, TES headers and a catalytic convertor still installed, I squeezed out more power than I expected as is. If I pull 450+ HP and over 550 TQ to the wheels after this build, and I can get it below 5500 RPM's, I'll be happy.

Trust me, my spending meter is pegged out for now!! I need to focus on getting machine work done, piston rings, bearings, gaskets, etc.....and a oil pan that'll work better!!

IROCZ1989

iTrader: (1)

Oh sorry I didnt know you were going to run a roots unit. Trust me you will love it. I have a kenne bell whipple on my 94 gt and it pulls hard on 8lbs just bolt ons on stock motor. Dont know if you ever looked into it or if its even feesable on a carb motor but I run meth injection from AIS. 50/50 mix with 92 octane on 8lbs. Injected through blower case. Its something to look into even if you havent even considered it, quite a lot I learned after I looked into it. Basically big boost on pump gas and no detonation. Take care

Confuzed1

iTrader: (4)

No worries….I know it's a long post. That's why when I get down to the actual build I'll start another thread. This thread contains mostly advice on which way to go in order to get a little bit more out of my existing setup and increasing reliability/longevity a bit with the new block (hopefully)…

As far as an oil pan goes, the Canton Road Race pan looks pretty good to me…but the price of the thing doesn't look good..…kinda outrageous IMO for a pan that holds oil.

On another note, I just received an email this morning that the AFR heads just shipped!

So I need to get down to the fun part of this build…removing my existing engine/trans! (being sarcastic)...

Dyno Don

iTrader: (7)

I'm not sure about a stroker but I have a car here now that has this pan and it clears with my Y-pipe and headers.

https://www.cantonracingproducts.com...N-RH-DIPSTICK/

Confuzed1

iTrader: (4)

Thanks Don! That's the sister pan to the thread I posted above - the road race pan. The 15-244 is the same pan with dipstick on the opposite side.

Even after you re-notched my last pan, it still didn't fit right so I ended up taking it to an exhaust shop and they tweaked the Y-pipe so it just barely cleared the pan….but now I don't like how close it sits to the pass. side frame at all. It's hitting the frame just forward of the area where the CAT used to bolt up.

And it rattles and drives me nuts.It's so close it literally is rattling against the frame in that area...

-I'm glad to hear your Y-pipe will clear this Canton pan. I thought I had seen from some earlier post that someone used the Canton pan with your Y-pipe.

I had plans to contact you about getting the section of Y-pipe that bolts onto the DS header flange…I think that's the one the exhaust shop tweaked on to make it "fit" that pan I sent you.

Let me verify that for sure and I'll be getting in contact with you. Thanks for verifying this pan will fit it!

Procharged GTA

That Canton pan looks like a good choice to me, as long as the Y-pipe clears, everything should be fine since it is for 3rd gen fbody's. Also I read someplace it will clear a 3.875" stroke, so you should be fine there also. Just remember to purchase their matching oil pump pickup for that pan for whatever pump you are going to run, it will make things much easier. Also you will need to purchase their 20mm plug, to plug the oil level sender hole that is in the pan if your not going to use it...The pan doesn't include the plug....

Brian

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

I used nothing but canton pans on my builds. Clears 3.75" crank fine but havent used any other stroke.

Confuzed1

iTrader: (4)

Many thanks guys!….

Yeah, I read on the Canton web site that I'll need to use their oil pump pick up and plug the hole for the optional temp sensor. I've had others question me in the past about needing a stroker anything because it's basically a stock stroke (3.75")….but what they don't understand is this is an AFTERMARKET crank shaft.

Makes a huge difference I've found. I've never had issues with rod clearance on the block or cam partly because there was clearancing done on the block when I got the thing.…but it's always the rear crank counterweight that keeps things difficult.

Honestly, if I would have known at the time, I would have had the rear counterweight shaved just a little before I had the rotating assembly balanced. Sure, it would have cost a bit more to balance the thing out, but being able to use a non-stroker pan would have paid for itself by now. I still remember the day I put the stock pan on the thing, dropped it in the car, hooked everything up and started the engine…just to hear it scrape the side of the oil pan on every rotation…I was not happy to say the least!

Then that led me to buying stroker pans that fit the Thirdgen frame just fine…until you go to install a Thirdgen exhaust….

So - I hope this pan will accommodate both the stroker and exhaust issue. I am a little concerned about the baffle screen the thing has in it…I'm envisioning my stupid crank throw scraping that!! I bet I'll end up needing to notch it somehow….and I'll hate to do it on a pan I'm going to pay so much for….

EDIT: BTW, after looking, it seems like this pan will work fine by looking at it. But I thought the same thing before...

Confuzed1

iTrader: (4)

Guess what I found on my door step today…..finally! And Brian or whoever said it earlier - I checked the AFR web site, and the prices did go up!! Good thing I got them when I did!

Tearing down the old engine!

Procharged GTA

He'll Yeah!! Almost time to start that build thread!! I would love to see pics of those heads, just having experience with AFR in the past, I bet they are a piece of art.

Brian

Confuzed1

iTrader: (4)

Sure, I'll post up a couple pics! I've actually not even taken them out of the box
yet…guess I should to make sure there the right ones I suppose.

Been pretty cold outside lately, (in the teens) and I have a detached garage…hard to heat up, and the concrete floor is uber cold!! Gonna blow lying underneath to pull the DS and tranny today... -But nothin I haven't done before…but I afraid the older I get, the less tolerance I have for it.

Confuzed1

iTrader: (4)

Well - disassembly continues…I'm still pretty fast at doing it myself. Finally ready to pull the engine, last few things to do were to pull the trans/TQ arm mount, driveshaft and trans itself.

I'm a little concerned about the end of the input shaft on the trans…I have a groove (not too deep) where the shaft goes into the pilot bearing in the crank. I think I'm going to have the machine shop remove the silly roller pilot bearing I have in it now, and just go back to a bronze bushing. At least I know it won't hurt the shaft any. Also - the area where the throwout bearing rides is looking a bit worn, not sure why…guess I'll get a new throwout bearing too. Anyone know of a good reliable brand of throwout bearings??

Confuzed1

iTrader: (4)

Oh - and as promised Brian…I took one of the heads out of the box to check it out. Kinda funny because there is a "180" in the rocker arm area of the head…does AFR take 180cc heads and hog them out to 195's?? I can only assume they do since the box they came in is marked "195 Street Comp"..



Sorry about the crappy pics everyone…I'm no photographer, and I only have my iPhone...

Procharged GTA

Nice pics!! Those sure are purty!! I bet you have the correct 195's, I believe AFR uses the 180 casting for both the 180's and 195's..... There are a couple things you can check to be sure, One is the intake valve, the 180 has a 2.02.....The 195 will measure 2.05. Another way you can be sure is measure the intake port openings...... The 180 will measure approximately 1.990"x1.230" ... The 195 will measure approximately 2.090"x1.280". I would definatley get rid of the pilot bearing and go with a good pilot bushing, much better in my opinion, there are no bearings to lock up and ruin the input......Thanks for sharing the progress!! ........oh, and sorry about that cold floor, I know exactly where you are coming from, we laid in the rocks one night at the track to take the tranny out and completely rebuild it and put it back in to make first round of qualifying the next mornin...didn't get much sleep, but hey, we made qualifying .....it's all worth it in the end....

Brian

Confuzed1

iTrader: (4)

OK - That's just hard core!

I suppose it would have been way worse if you did all that and didn't qualify!

I'll do a little measuring just to verify they didn't sell me 180cc heads…I would NOT be happy..

On another note, engine is now free and on the stand! I went out and spent 150 bucks for a engine hoist at the local Harbor Freight. I got tired of always needing to rent one every time I do this.

-So, I buy a host, get it home, assemble the entire thing and go to use it…the stupid boom is TOO SHORT!!

Max extension on it was advertised as 50-1/4"…I really thought it would work…turns out I'll need to buy a big piece of square stock to extend it's reach…it has a 3 ton ram on it, so I think it should handle it with no sweat. I just hate needing to modify crap that should have worked in the first place.

I'll get the heads off and crank out of it tomorrow, plus at least one rod and piston. Then I can take those to the machine shop along with my block so they can start their work.

I'll also ask him how much additional $$ it would cost to just assemble the short block. I can't imagine it would be that much more, but I'll ask…

RyanJB

My hoist is too short to reach from the front as well. I just take the passenger side wheel off and get it from there

1gary

Yeah,I have been shopping around for a Gantry A-Frame for a bit.Window shopping for a two poster lift.That would differently be a game changer for the shop.

The trailer rides heavy with a complete spare drivetrain and spare engine when we travel to out of town bug races.With full tube frames and front engine plates and mid plates with removable panels makes changes track side tons easier.

Confuzed1

iTrader: (4)

I was actually considering doing just that, but I just don't have a lot of room on either side....

I would of had to take the car totally off the jack stands, and push it to the center of the garage...pulling the engine solo was tough enough without going through all that. The front ends on these cars are longer than they look. Had the same issue last time when I borrowed a buddy's home made hoist.

Gary - I was also eyeballing an awful nice gantry at the store too...they wanted 599 for it....didn't come with a chain fall or anything though. But it would be really handy!!

EDIT: Whenever I eventually retire and get a house in the middle of no where with a pole barn, a nice car lift will be high on my priority list!!

1gary

If you buy a lift plate that bolts to the intake carb base,that helps abunch.I had and "tried" to use those engine tilters/levelers and have not really had much use to them.

1gary

Yep-the size of the shop helps abunch too.





But there are pluses and minuses to having a shop in the middle of no where.Well no one bothers you,but getting to the parts stores in a PITA.

Confuzed1

iTrader: (4)

Now that's a PERFECT size!! Exactly what I'm talking about...

articwhiteZ

iTrader: (56)

before moving the camaro. and tools over

just redoing the shop at my new place...2nd house with a nice 40x50 work shop 20 feet away from the house.
2 larg bays and lots of room..
recovering the floors in a brighter floor finnish. (thinking gloss..tan?)..was going to make the floor look like a drag strip/2 lane road..
adding a few more work benches. steel top color matched to floor
doing the walls tex and paint...in the works now..spray tex..faster and the paint looks better.
adding more lights..in the head of ea bay.
80gal 7hp air comps (out side in a shed)
and lots of race banners for the man cave thing..(in hand now)

the soon to be new wife asked me what i wanted for a wedding gift.
i just pop out with a lift...she tells me...ok...then she saw some prices...lol


who knows...

but i can tell you a nice shop to work in...makes things nice...