Lewspike69

Knowlegdable members wanted
haha.
Over the past year, I have been building an engine for my camaro. I am 17 and this is my first engine experience. I am doing this entire project myself under the council of my local engine builder. So far I have the shortblock completed. Now moving my way up to the top end, I picked out the XR282HR cam with the required retrofit roller lifters.
I just can't seem to decide on cylinder heads. I want to go with the AFR 195 street heads, but I hear and read otherwise. One reason being the valve springs wont be compatiable with my cam (I know I can buy additionally the right set). And most commonly that I can get just as good as a product for less money with another head.
My engine builder wants me to go with Edebrock performer heads. He says there great heads out of the box and they will come with the valve springs too. I think hes biased because there the heads on his foxbody haha.
I also have looked at Dart Pro Platnium heads, as well as others like brodix.

The heads I need to buy need to be aluminum, around 64-65cc for my compression (around 9 and 3/4 :1, have im thinking 195cc-210cc intake runners, and work well with my cam.

Please help me decide on the best head for my combo. Feel free to ask any other needed info.
Thanks thirdgen.

sofakingdom

iTrader: (1)

Kinda depends on your goals for the motor...

The Eddie heads are VERY good street heads, but are NOT the "most power" choice by a long shot. The valve springs on them are not adequate for that cam.

A better choice from those guys would be the E-tec heads. They have the Vortec raised intake ports and make considerably better power than otherwise equivalent heads with the older port location. Of course you'll need a Vortec-specific intake to go along with them.

The Dart heads are a better race-oriented setup. They'll make plenty o power. Again, you'll want a spring upgrade from the "basic" setup.

The AFRs are the best of both worlds. Decent street manners, very good power. Also the most $$$.

For any motor in this general range, street or strip, the Perormer RPM is probably the best intake choice, along with a Holley 750 with manual secondaries.

Then there's the question of the whole rest of the car... if it's a manaul, the T-5 won't last long. A T-56 is in your future. You'll want 3.42 or 3.73 gears for the T-5, and AT LEAST 3.73s for the T-56. If it's an auto, you'll want about a 2500 - 2800 RPM stall, and about 3.42 gears.

Lewspike69

I frogot to mention my choice of intake and carb. I actually was planning on both the edlebrock performer intake and some Holley or AED 750 cfm carb.

Also the purpose of this car is to be an every other day/ maybe weekend thrill ride. I want it to be wild but retain essential street manners. Something like fuel economy is not important but would be nice to get decent mpg when driving easy. I guess you can say the tier in between daily driver and street machine, closer to the street machine lol

Lewspike69

The car has a 700R4. Im looking for a rear end with posi and 3.73s and am going to put a stall converter in it, around the stall range you suggested. Im going to hope the tranny will hold up before I can afford to beef it up. (no shifts at wot into OD that means lol)

sofakingdom

iTrader: (1)

Well then think about the E-tec heads, Performer Vortec intake, and a Holley 6210 carb. (650 CFM spreadbore manual secondaries) That combo will give 95% or more the power that a 750 will, but with gas mileage roughly equal to what a Q-Jet can give on the same motor.

Don't bother "looking for" a rear end like that, they basically don't exist, except for a LS1/T-56 one. Advantage of that is, you also get the good rear brakes. Otherwise, much easier to create one.

AutoRoc

iTrader: (1)

350 or bigger?

redneckjoe

i was wondering what size the engine is too.

Lewspike69

Thats embarassing. I don't know how I forgot that one. It's a 383. In addition, my ultimate goal is to retain street manners but get into the 12s in the quarter. Is that possible?

Lewspike69

So do you guys think 3.42 gears or 3.73? Also you think it would be easier to build a rear rather than find one? Doesn't that require special tools, knowlegde for the spyder gears. I have a limited slip 10 bolt with 3.08s in the car now.

sofakingdom

iTrader: (1)

Yes I think you'll want 3.42s.

There simply aren't any 3.73 posi rear ends for these cars laying around. Very uncommon. Besides which, the only cars that came with those, were the early L69 ones; and those have the crappy Saginaw brakes in teh rare instance that the even have discs at all, the crappy Auburn posi, and the crappy 26-spline axles. Crappy all the way around.

The rear you have now has a 2 series carrier (the crappy Auburn, if it's from 83), 26-spline axles, and probably drums. Basically nothing about it is anything you can re-use. Not a candidate for spending money on.

One way or another, you're going to need a core. All-around cheeeeepest and best to find one that's as close to your desired finished product as possible, and just deal with making whatever changes have to be made. The 3.42/posi/disc combo is quite common in LS1 cars, that'd be a good one to seek out.

As far as special tools, changing gears requires an implement for holding the yoke still while you tighten the nut, like this



and a dial indicator. But if you can come up with the right core maybe you can dodge all that.

Yes 12s are possible, with good tuning. Both the drivetrain and the chassis.

Lewspike69

My cars an auto.
What rear should I look for to build for 3rd gen? Its going to be a 28 spline and a series 3 right? If I used an LS1 rear, wouldnt the wheel stick out a few inches from the wheel well?

sofakingdom

iTrader: (1)

Sure; unless you use 4th gen or Vette wheels.

The rear end to find out of a 3rd gen would be a 90-up 3.23 or higher ratio w discs. Not a whole lot of those laying around either.

If you're not in a hurry (4-5 yr time horizon or more) you might count on getting lucky and come across one, but if you want one like NOW, probably nowhere near as good odds.

Lewspike69

You think the E-tec heads would be a better choice for my combo than than the AFRs given the same 650 carb? Is this because of gas milage orrr

Tibo

iTrader: (15)

It doesn't sound like you are making a drag car warrior, so in reality any aftermarket aluminum cylinder head will be fine for your purpose. You can get a set of used name brand aluminum cylinder heads for $500-800. I am partial to trickflow or and AFR. If you have the money or can justify it go with the AFR 1040 eliminators.

sofakingdom

iTrader: (1)

They're about $500 less, and given the intake profile you want to use, you can't use all the flow that the "max" heads can give you, anyway. You'd spend more, but get no more in return.

Engines work the best, in terms of results per $$$, when all the parts are similarly sized and work together harmoniously toward a common goal; NOT, just go out and buy the "coolest" "baddest" whatever just because "everybody has one" or "they say" or the like. Parts mismatches NEVER "compensate" for each other. THINK in a level-headed manner about what you are doing, and pick parts that do just exactly that without any strain, but not "too much" more.

Same goes for "cars" as "engines"... doesn't make alot of sense to back-half and tub a car that has a 6-cyl, just like it doesn't make sense to put a 500 HP mountain motor into an unmodified stock-suspension sedan with 25-yr-old wore-out springs and shocks. All has to work TOGETHER.

whatever84

I think the AFR's are probably one of the best heads out there, that being said I have the Brodix IK200's and am very happy with them. I think Edelbrock makes good stuff but there are better choices for heads out there. That's my 2 cents.


Mark.

Lewspike69

Where can i get a set of used heads for that cheap lol?!?
Sofa, your argument is why i am so bent. Should I be spending more money on something that for my situation might not get me better results? If power being equal, would the AFRs have another advantage to justify spending that extra $500? Like in terms of power band, fuel efficiency, durrability, streetability? I hope I'm not splitting hairs here haha
I just dont know too much about cylinder heads

sofakingdom

iTrader: (1)

Sure you can buy used heads for cheeeeep; problem is, by the time you get em all back in like-new shape, you'll probably have as much $$$ in em as just buying new. I don't think I'd go that route.

I used to know a guy that was really into the whole "appearance" thing. WHich I must admit, is just ... not... me. But this guy would literally wipe down the inside of his wheel wells and armor-all em, even though THE VERY FIRST THING he would do next, is back down his driveway, through the puddle from his hose, and splash mud all over everything. Now... did it make any sense to go to all that trouble, for a car that was about to drive on the street? Of course not.

Same principle here. Your goal is a nice fun hot street car. You're not telling us you want to go out and run low ET at your track. Consequently the parts that fit your goal aren't necessarily the "max power" stuff. Likewise, if you think of the "curve" of results on the horizontal axis and $$$$ on the vertical, you'd see a line that stayed pretty close to zero for a ways ("free" mods) where you get LOTS of results for very little $$$, then started to increase slowly (tuning) with not quite as much results but a little more $$$, then started to rise more steeply (serious mods) as each incremental improvement in results consumes ever more $$$, then continued to rise ever more steeply (excess) where you can spend literally cubic wheelbarrows of $$$$ chasing just 1 more HP. The trick is, to find the point along that results vs $$$ curve that suits you; not alot of sense in buying $$$$$ stuff whose results you'll never see.

If you put a Performer intake on a motor, you just eliminated a WHOLE BUNCH of the benefit that the higher $$$$ heads can give you.

IMO you should be able to get a set of heads that will completely satisfy you and your stated goals, completely ready to run in your application, for less than $1200 new on your doorstep. I doubt you can beat that by going used, given that you don't get to pick and choose what they are quite so readily, and by the time you ship them, get them cleaned up and refreshed, replace the valve springs with what you're going to need, etc. etc. etc. AFRs will be $400-500 over that.

A Vortec (raised port) design is the PERFECT street combo. That's why I'm suggesting the E-tecs. They just all-around fit what you say you're trying to do, at a reasonable price.

jbenge

iTrader: (2)

The E-Tec heads are probably the best bang for your buck and can get you to your 12 sec goal. If you want more more power potential(you may want to go faster in the future?) its worth it to go with AFR/ Dart/ Brodix heads. The better the heads are the more power you can make with less sacrifice in drivability. No matter which heads you go with I would look at going to a Performer RPM or RPM airgap intake. Ultimately it depends on your end goal and budget.

The first 383 I built is very similar to what you are going to build. On street tires it would run mid 12's and very low 12's on sticky tires. It was very reliable and streetable and it had plenty of vacuum for power brakes. For reference here are the basics of the combination.

383CID Eagle forged rods and crank, JE forged pistons
10:1 compression
RPM air gap intake manifold port matched
dart pro 1 215cc intake runners unported
750 DP carb
bullet custom grind retrofit hyd/roller cam 225/230@.05 .525/.525 lift
hedman 1 5/8 LT headers, 3in catback exhaust
th-350 with 10in 3500 stall converter
Moser 12 bolt with Eaton posi 3.73 gears

Hope that info helps you in your decision!

Lewspike69

Great points raised. I guess I am just going to have to be honest with my self here and choose the best heads for what I am going to use, if that is now or later.
One quick question on the E-Tec heads, they flow considerably less at lower lift than the AFRs. Won't this affect street driving?

sofakingdom

iTrader: (1)

Not really...

The valves go through their full lift cycle every time they open; whether on the street, racing, cruising or accelerating, etc.

But the HEAD flow only matters up to a point. Think of an engine's induction system as being like a chain of pieces of garden hose, and the measurement of interest as being the flow through the WHOLE chain. If you have 50' of ½", then 25' of ¾", then 25' of ¼", then 100 more feet of ½", how much difference would it make if you raised the ¾" to 1"? to 2"? to 6"? Same deal here... when you restrict the flow with a small intake, the head flow rate no longer dominates the total system flow.

Another way to look at it is, is their flow $500 better, in your application? Is the "bang for the buck" there? I would maintain, no. Sure, the AFRs might be "better"; but it would be like the guy armor-alling his inner fender wells up there. Will you even be able to NOTICE the difference, LET ALONE get 50% more improvement from those than you would from the others? If you can get 95% of the results by spending 70% of the money, then is that one "last HP" really "worth it"? Again, spending the extra money fails the test (IMO).

You say you're 17. I don't know what your income is, how much money you have saved up, or any of that; but at this stage of your life, about the last thing you need to get wrapped up in, is spending too much money on your car. All it will take to wipe it out, is one idiot running a red light; and then, all you've spent, will crumble to dust. The risk isn't worth it. Spend wisely and effectively, not just "alot".

Lewspike69

I think this point convinced me. Funds right now come from loan and McDonalds HAHA.
You are right. Im going to speak to my engine builder this week and i will post my ultimate decision. I think E-tec heads are the way to go for me.

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

Jegs brand 195's are profiler castings and great heads for money. With their hyd roller spring package it will work great. They are cheap to.
Etec 200's arent bad but i thought they were 600-650 each which aint far behind afr?

Fwiw afr heads are some of the best street heads for hyd rollers. Base 1.27" spring package i believe the 8017 springs are great for most street hyd rollers. The 100$ upgrade is 8019 springs which will handle most cams you'd ever run. I used them to turn 7k rpm. Very good hyd roller spring. Afr also has ls1 style valves that are 8mm stems which makes them lighter than other brands for more rpm potential but you wont need that for your combo.

Your cam doesnt need alot of spring but it would be compatible with afr springs. Not sure who told you different.

Lewspike69

Yeah Im finding that the E-Tec heads are anywhere from $600-$700 each on summit. AFRs are about $750 each (1500/2).

Does AFR come with dual springs? Or is that the extra $100 package?

My engine buider told me almost all of the AFR heads he has installed came with springs not adequite for a hyd roller cam. Like I said, it seems he is biased twards Edelbrock for whatever reason. I got the feeling he knows his stuff though.

Looking at summit, trick flow start at about $1000 a pair (so $500 dollars a head). Are either profilers or these trick flows in the range of quality and fit of my application as the E-Tecs and AFRs are?

sofakingdom

iTrader: (1)

Yeah looks like they have gone up; used to be around $550 IIRC.

Still acoupla bills less than the AFRs though.

And yes, the advertised AFR price is with really lame springs, you'll have to pay for an upgrade to work with a roller cam.

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

The 1040's I bought in 08 were 1440 shipped to my door I believe. I cant remember exactly. Mine came with good springs, 8017's that would handle most milder cams. Dual springs 135lbs seat and 360's open I think? Good to .600, could always shim to 145-150 I think and handle .550 or so lift.

http://www.adperformance.com/index.p...roducts_id=208

They are 1367 on that site and I believe there was a member here advertising a connection to AFR for 1250 for the 195's with good springs. PM 88BlackZ-51 and see if he still has connections. Anesthes or Project89 may also have a connection

I do not know what springs you are refering to that are not hyd roller compatible. I thought all the base heads came with 8017 dual springs which are good enough for most milder hyd rollers under 6200 rpm or so and your cam should be around those levels in a 383. For higher rpm or more aggressive lobes you upgrade to the 8019's which are 100 bucks upgrade. They are 150lbs on the seat and 412 open. These are similar to the Patriot Extreme Gold dual springs which are VERY popular and proven for LS1 cars.

AFR may have some other lower grade springs for flat tappets but I do not know the numbers to those springs. Whatever you do, if you get AFR's make sure you confirm what springs are coming with it. 8017 or 8019's are the hyd roller springs.


My buddy still has a set of Brodix 200cc heads that would work well. Few miles on them but suppose to be in good condition still. Think he's looking for 900-1000 for them. I think they are IK200's but not sure. Setup for solid flat tappet so you would have to swap springs. Good beehive kit would work great.

cuisinartvette

mechanic thinks Performer heads are worth it over AFRs is he friggin high?lol

Lewspike69

So if I were to order AFR heads with either the #8017 or #8019 valve springs, would they be enough for my cam with a gross valve lift of .510 intake and .520 exhaust?

and haha I believe he was suggesting the edlebrock performer heads based on performance/dollar, not overall performance!

DeltaElite121

Don't take loans on performance builds unless you can pay it off quickly. Like mentioned - in the event you get hit, you'll have a NASTY loan to pay off with nothing to show for it. Not saying it happens to everyone, but it does happen.

I'd look into Orr's offer. A set of BRODIX heads would be awesome and you save a few hundred bucks in the process.

Lewspike69

Yeah I know Im rolling the dice with this one, but it is my passion. Im addicted to this stuff man!

But I am looking into it now. Will keep updated with thought processes!
I'll look into Brodix too.

sofakingdom

iTrader: (1)

If you can pick up a good set of used heads from a known source, particularly if they don't need alot of work or parts changed out to fit your setup, it's worth a look, even if they're not "the" "ideal" that you've settled on.

THIN for a minute about how long it will take for you to generate the cash to pay for whatever it is you're doing; how long that means, no dates, no apartment, no electronics, no school tuition and therefore NO ECONOMIC FUTURE, no ... whatever else it turns out you'll have to give up in exchange for a few minutes of instant gratification. "Bang for the buck" is more important sometimes than "best".

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

Yeah either should work, 8019's would be best IMO. 8017's shimmed abit will do the same thing.

Lewspike69

Hey guys,
It's been a while now and I'm almost completely done buttoning up my oil pan for good and about to flip it over. I really am thinking AFR 1040s are the way to go especially now that summit has then at a pair for $1400.

However doing some research on here and other sources and I'm finding that it might be difficult to find headers to fit the AFR exhaust ports. Is there truth in this? I'm not sure they are worth the coin if I'm going to need to buy a custom header and y pipe set up for the car (like the dyno Don ones I've seen on here) for say about $800.
Just weighing out my options here.
Are these the only headers that will work (shorties)?

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

1 5/8 ports wont completely cover the port but it also wont completely kill the power.

Fyi there is a set of dyno dons in the classifieds section for 310 bucks.... No y pipe but you can maybe buy that separate from dyno don or build one.

Lewspike69

Couldn't you take a little material off the flanges and make them less of a step? So no loss you can feel right?

But good looks. Going to check out the post now.

Tibo

iTrader: (15)

Agreed. Purchase the heads and you can always upgrade to better headers later. It is very easy to change headers and I don't think there would be too much loss.

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

Some guys dont report any loss. Most of the exhaust flow occurs in center of the port and is of high pressure so it will find its way out no matter what. Can try port the header opening but make sure you leave enough room to seal up against the head

Lewspike69

Okay, finally ordered AFR 1040s. The reason being how close the price of these were compared to the other guys (Edlebrock for example).

Now I would appreciate some feedback in reguards to cylinder quench.

My block is undecked, so I can assume the piston .025" in the hole ( right?)
AFR suggests the Fel-Pro #1003 @ .041"

Would a quench of .066 be reasonable?
What are some substitutes for head gaskets you suggest? The engine is assembled now so disassemling it to get it decked would be unfavorable haha.

BTW my static compression with the #1003 is calculated to be about 9.6:1

Lewspike69

Was looking into these:
http://www.summitracing.com/parts/MR...ew=1&N=700+150
They are .028". They are steel core laminante lke the fel-pro.

Lewspike69

Sorry for the tripple post but..
Just called AFR. According to them Fel-Pro #1094 would work well.
http://www.summitracing.com/parts/fpp-1094

It's rubber coated. What you guys think about that on my factory deck? This would bring compression to 10.2:1 and my quench at .040"
Is this a safe compression for my cam/setup?

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

Have heard some leak issues with the 1094 long while back but havent used them myself. Heard good things about gm and others .028". That would be reasonable.

Can you verify tdc on the cylinders and measure how far down they are? Just to be sure

Lewspike69

I'd have to borrow a dial indicator but yeah I could. I wanted to before I bought any gaskets. Should 't the piston really be around .025" below the deck? The rotating assembly is aftermarket though.

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

Thats why i recommended measuring it. Never know. Some pistons are taller than others for same rod. Really depends on manufacturers rating, plus not confident all blocks are 9.025" deck. Could have variance

Lewspike69

Ill check. But is a .040 inch quench really that important?

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

For what you are trying to accomplish, no.

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

In fact i recall my buddy using sealed pro replacement pistons in his stock block non decked with afr's recommended gasket which i believe was the 1003 at .041" and his car was a high 11 sec car with good valve springs. The ones he had floated at went 12.2's at only 9.5 or so to 1 compression... If that

Tibo

iTrader: (15)

GM offers a good head gasket that I usually use, I just can't remember the part number right now...

Lewspike69

Just got the AFRs in the mail today and all I have to say is whoa. These are really nice cylinder heads. The craftmanship is amazing. Glad I picked these.

I'm still waiting on measuring tools.
Was just wondering what you guys thought about the pros/cons of static compression of 9.6:1 & quench of .066" V.S. 10.2:1 & .040. I'm worried about being on the verge of detonation/leaking from the thin gasket on the latter .

Lewspike69

Do you remember the compressed thickness?

camarito

That's my deck height 0.025 and I use 0.015 felpro steel shims gaskest they work great. 10.2:1 & 8.3 dcr 180* thermostat I use 87 octane 32* wot advance
compression test after 15k miles 200-220 psi
quench is very important, did a lot of research on it when I build my engine