83 Crossfire TA

iTrader: (2)

I'm looking for a good, drop in valve spring package that will work on SBC/LT1 heads and support lifts in the high .5xx range. I've had the patriot performance 8401 package on order for 2 months and they still haven't shipped, and every week for the last month I got "it will ship in maybe the next week." I'm getting tired of this.

Any suggestions?

Jim85IROC

iTrader: (2)

Your lift needs are nothing exotic. Any spring manufacturer should have a good set that will serve you well. Comp, Lunati, etc. If your lift needs are .550 or less, a take-off set of LS6/LS3 springs should work great and can be bought very affordably.

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

Yeah what install height and pressures do you need/want to see?

83 Crossfire TA

iTrader: (2)

I agree, it's nothing exotic, but I'm trying to avoid having to do any real machining. I do have a louis tool if I needed to cut down the guides for the seals, and they're going on a set of LT1 heads converted for SBC use which currently have the stock valve/spring configuration but are getting 7/16" studs and guideplates (going on a 305, stock diameter valves...).

I think that the LS6 springs would be borderline (though I'd be fine with trying them if someone has a useful lists of part numbers for keepers, retainers... that would work with stock valves and can recommend seals... though I might have some parts laying around), but I know that the drop in comp beehive parts have had a rash of failures with the LSX/Corvette guys.

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

That's the 280 xfi cam right? I had tuned a car that used double springs, I think afr 8002's on afr 190 heads. Floated at 5700. He had 120lbs seat 320 open. Was only rated to .550" but ran that cam with 1.6's no problem just too weak pressure. You need a light valve train and around 150lbs seat and nearer to 380-400 open IMO. Beehives IMO aren't quite enough. 1989gtatransam ran comp beehives on the 268 xfi and floated after awhile. Cam wore out springs they lost 20lbs of seat pressure. The patriot extreme golds are what you need but being back ordered sucks.

Let me check my catalogs I knew of a few springs that may work but not off the top of my head. Afr has the identical patriots, the 8019 but no retainer for 11/32 valves. If patriot has retainers for the extreme gold then they should work with afr's

83 Crossfire TA

iTrader: (2)

Yep, it's the XFI280.

I called patriot and they said that the standard golds will work fine, and that the extreme golds are probably excessive for the application. Either way, I don't know of another spring package that I would trust for this, which is the reason that I was asking for suggestions, if you can come up with something I'd appreciate it.

FWIW, I think that the retainers is why they haven't shipped the golds...

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

Figuring a 1.78-1.80" install height, I like the comp cams 26925 dual springs. 1.32" diameter, 141 lbs seat, 405 open. Sorta like the Patriots, just abit wider. Steel retainer 714 for non ls motors. Designed as ls dual spring but they make the retainer for non ls motors. About 190 bucks a set of springs only + whatever the retainers are. Not exactly cheap but good valvetrain stuff never really is.

Pac beehives may work as long as they have the retainer I'm just not a fan of beehives but never used them and would like to try them. LS guys seem to like them on their milder cams but the xfi lobes arent that mild.

Not seeing much else outside of the Patriots. I'd have to ask around. I know Chad Speier/Profiler have a small diameter spring for 11/32 valves but not sure who's they are.

83 Crossfire TA

iTrader: (2)

huh... $400:
http://www.summitracing.com/parts/CC...-KIT/?rtype=10
and I don't think that I can get the installed height that high with stock valves, and would feel weird spending $400 on springs and using stock valves... arg

2 other things that I can do, run 1.5 rockers instead of the 1.6, that will get the lift down just below .550" (not sure I really need that much lift on a turbo motor). I also have a slightly smaller custom grind using xtreme lobes (224/224/114, need to dig up the cam card, but with 1.6 rockers i think that one will be at .536" lift)

83 Crossfire TA

iTrader: (2)

Which PAC spring? The 1518?

I keep wondering if I could get away with a 1218 or just try some comp 918's (the valve springs that I mentioned that I've heard a lot of failures with), but am unsure what keepers, retainers and seals to go with withe any of them.

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

I like the nitrided 1518's for best strength and longevity but the 1218's may work.

400 bucks for the kit featuring retainers/locks/seats/ springs etc isnt too shabby. Even tho stock valves, valve train control can come at a price and well worth the investment

Patriot regular golds MAY do alright. I think they are suppose to be setup for a 1.8" install height as well. Whats the spring install height on stock heads anyway? I thought it was near 1.77 or so. If its that short, then the seat pressures are gonna go up which will help but max lift capacity goes down...but I believe that spring has more than enough lift for the XFI.

If this is going in a 305 with a turbo, i doubt you really need that much lift anyway so a 1.5 rocker wouldnt hurt but I still dont think it opens up the spring options that much.

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

Chad Speier uses the 1219 springs with titanium retainers sometimes, but its probably gonna be costly. Its a beehive spring with abit more spring rate I believe... I have Pac-1371's with titaniums on my new combo, setup at 1.90" height... 500 just for the springs retainers and locks...not real cheap at all with the titanium retainers

I'm trying to find out who's spring is that 1.26" one and how much they are.

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

Thats the 1.26" spring. Should be a real nice setup for that cam.

83 Crossfire TA

iTrader: (2)

huh... so if I went with the PAC 1218, 1219 (which appears to be just a newer version of the 1218) or 1518, what keepers and retainers would I use? I'm guessing that I could get away with stock seals (I may have a set of them sitting around) or cut them down for some standard PC seals (probably viton, anyone have a preference there?)?

Also, does anyone (you?) have a take on the Comp 918's? They did have a rash of failures, but that appears to be batches from a couple of years ago, I haven't heard of any problems with more recent ones and they seem to be a comparable spring.

83 Crossfire TA

iTrader: (2)

I was under the impression that the stock installed height on an LT1 is in the low/mid 1.7x" range, but it doesn't really matter if you're not using stock keepers/retainers. I can measure it but again... Even at the stock installed height some rockers have problems with contacting the top of the spring package, so going much higher is probably not an option.

I don't exactly need the lift from the 1.6 RR (but the XFI cams are spec'ed for them, not sure why, if there is any, difference in the geometry), but I have all the parts to go with 7/16" 1.6RR, where I would have to buy at least rockers to go with 1.5's. It's not that I need to save money, but common, it's a 305 and most of the setup is just stuff that I have sitting around doing nothing.

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

I have heard the failures in the past but nothing of recent times. They switched manufacturers apparently and the quality was improved/fixed. 918's would likely work but just seem marginal to me. I like the PAC springs as they are known to be of great quality and the 1219 has abit higher spring rate which I think is a good idea over the 1218 or 918 comp.

1218 or 1219's can use the 300 series steel retainers. PAC-R310's. advertised at 4 bucks a peice. 10 deg locks. Or go titanium...Pac-R510 at $15.25 a piece Titanium light weight will give piece of mind to valve float problems.

I know comp 918's has a retainer for 11/32 sbc stems. We were in this boat last year when my buddy had float on his AFR's and needed a small diameter valve spring with adequate pressure. Thought long and hard about beehive 918's and had the kit lined up but I convinced him to buy the patriot spring kit. Then he goes LS 6.0 and sells the old setup before ever doing springs! So we never know what would have happened.

I'd like to hear from someone using those base beehives on this cam to see how long they lasted and if they were adequate. Lloyd Elliott may know as he does ported LT1 heads and spec's custom grind cams and valvespring packages. The Pac 1218/1518 works for him I believe. Chad Speier likes the 1219 and so do I with the higher rates. I like to be abit more conservative on springs.

Only thing I seen from few years back was 1989GTATransAm using beehives 918's with his 268XFI and they lost 20 lbs of seat pressure after a year I believe. Had valve float issues with the lower spring pressures. Not sure if it was a quality issue or the heat cycling and camshaft lobes just beat the springs down.

LS1's seem to work ok with them since they have light valves with the 8mm stems but sometimes even sodium filled valves which are much lighter still. Lightweight helps alot. 11/32" stem is alot more material and mass. Should have abit more spring IMO.

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

Forgot to even mention the aspect of boost compounding problems... spring rates need to increase lightly to compensate for the boost. So even more reason to run 1219's or a stiff double spring.

83 Crossfire TA

iTrader: (2)

I just called PAC and took the "what do I need to make this work" approach. I got back:
1219 springs
L8026 10* keepers
R310 Steel retainers
S111 Seats

stock installed height is 1.75" and they recommended installing this at 1.75" and that I'll have .049" to coil bind there and that I should have 150# over the nose and 360# open. This is with stock valves and they were recommending stock replacement valve stem seals "you shouldn't have any clearance issues with the beehives..."

Supposed to be on my desk by friday

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

That should be more than enough and offer good insurance at high rpms. 280xfi in a 305 should see near 7K rpms if the heads support it Atleast on shifts

83 Crossfire TA

iTrader: (2)

yea, that's what I'm figuring and some of the modeling that I've tried is predicting. I"m a little concerned about driveability, but it should have a pretty healthy idle for a turbo car... I may chicken out last minute and go with the smaller 224/224/114, but I doubt it.

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

It's gonna lope pretty hard. My friends mild 360 had a good lopey idle but it was pretty stable at 775-800 rpms. Drove ok on stock converter too but really wanted a 3600-4000 stall. Low end was abit lazy since it was abit low on compression but it screamed up top. On a 305 I can see a 1000 rpm idle and soft bottom end til the turbos come on. Curious to see how that works out

83 Crossfire TA

iTrader: (2)

you saying 3600-4000 stall on a 360 concerns me a little. Currently the car is a stick but I have a 4l80e and a 3600 stall converter to put behind it (I _really_ keep wondering if I'd be better off with a TH350 or 400). If it's too much it won't be much of a loss, I think I bought the cam for less than $100 used and I still have the 224/224 to fall back on.

I'm expecting a bit of a lope and basically not much of anything below 3000rpm, but I am hoping to get it to idle below 1000, and expecting it to scream >4000rpm, especially when hitting it with some good boost up there.

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

Its just that the torque curve was so high up in the power band, 3600 stall is what he ran but I think it would have been best with 4000 for optimal drag performance. 700r4 trans has that deep gear ratio but the car just wouldnt consistantly get down below 1.7 60 foots. Its been a few 1.6's but not consistant. It may have been an issue with valve float at top of first gear or off the initial acceleration hit. It certainly had enough gear. Had 3.73's then 3.90's but he ran a tall 28" tire.



Run started at 4000-4500 ish rpm for some reason, i guess he couldnt keep trans from down shifting into 2nd but the hp curve was steadily rising til 5700 when it took a big hit and started getting wavy. Torque curve was up in the 4700 rpm peak but it may have done abit better below that if the converter was locked up sooner and the run started abit lower. But the torque curve stays pretty flat. Its still over 300lb ft from 4500 to 5700 where it floats and probably over 300 down below 3500 rpm.
Granted there was only 3 quick pulls and didnt have time to really adjust the air fuel ratio or play with timing but car just didnt really make torque. It would have made 350-360whp probably by 6200 rpm but the torque of 330 just seemed abit low. My stock L98 with HSR intake only with 1.6 rocker arms made 315wtq.

Like I said, it drove around ok with stock stall and something smaller like 2800-3000 would have worked well but not give optimal 60 foots at the drag strip. I have 3200 in my LS1 but with the bolt ons, 3600-4000 works best. I just found a deal on this 3200 for a daily driver and it works great for that purpose.

Look at the other 350-370" motors the california TPI guys have... they all have modded intakes it seems that pull to 6K rpms and beyond. Torque curve is pushed up to 4500-ish rpm peaks with it holding pretty flat from 3800-5000 rpm or so. Some of those guys are running 3600-4000 stall I believe.
VincentZ28 has 360" with 280xfi in a stick car making 407rwtq at 4700 rpms. So the peak torque is up there in the rpm range for sure.

83 Crossfire TA

iTrader: (2)

I'm thinking of ditching the TPI and going with a converted vic jr just because I hate dealing with all the gaskets and crap on the TPI to do anything with it. I suppose that makes the situation worse. What are they doing to make a TPI flow well >6000 rpm on a biggish engine?

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

Raise injector bosses, weld material around the base and inj bosses and the port the heck out of it. Get the cross sectional area up and match entry into head as best you can. Runners need to be very large in diameter but mainly shortened. On tpi that would just be siamesed a good distance in. 305 tho shouldnt need too much area or that short of a runner