D&S 85 IROC

I traded a 1984 Ford F250 4wheel drive diesel pickup for this car 12 years ago. At the time it had 85k on it. Right now It's the wife's semi daily driver, she only drive it on nice days just to tease the boyz.

D&S 85 IROC

here it is

navy02ws6

My 305 was free....65k on it, and it replaces my original 305 that the previous owner decided to drive with no oil in it. Would I rather have a 350? Sure. But still factory L98 cars don't have enough ***** for me to spend money on one. Just can't justify it on a car I paid $400 for.

ZZ3 Z28

I was one of those people who had, note the word had, an LG4 305 in my 3rd gen back in the day. I tried some preformance mods, bigger exhaust, Hypertech chip, etc, and they did diddly-squat. There was nothing I was going to do to get that lethargic 305 to make anymore horses than it was made to. I toyed with the idea of a cranker 383 but finally settled on a ZZ3 that makes over twice the hp as the 305 ever dreamed of making.

I never gave thought about collectability, numbers matching, or Barrett-Jackson. What I cared about was horse power. And the only way I was going to get it was dump the LG4. I haven't looked back since. I would dare say, too that dropping in that ZZ3 saved my Camaro from the scrap pile. Unless my 3rd gen finds itself wrapped around a tree some day, I would also bet that my ZZ3'ed Camaro is going to be more desirable than just about any LG4 p.o.s out there.

navy02ws6

I'll agree with that, until 100% stock cars become REALLY rare and then people start paying up for them just to have something thats "factory correct". I know which one I'd rather drive though

erik69&85

iTrader: (1)

Because I make up for my 2" ***** with the 402 big block in my 69 Camaro.

The 305s in my 85 and 92 Zs are just fine. Why should I take them apart or replace them when they run just fine? I put on a few performance adders and improve the handling.... drive them everyday in good weather.

Yes, I know they are worthless...paid $2700 for a decent 92Z....but I would sure rather get around in that then a Civic!

ZZ3 Z28

Those classic muscle cars demanding big $$$ are not in-line 6 cylinder Chevelles or Tempests with three on the tree. They are COPO's, hemi's, tri-powers. Those are the cars collectors are paying the heavy cash for. A numbers matching 1985 sport coupe with a paltry LG4 will NEVER demand big money. Never. Meanwhile, I'll drive my 2 inch ***** around in a heavily modified, performance enhanced, souped up, high horse powered factory stock-looking Z28 that will run rings around anything The General ever sent down an assembly line.

FireDemonSiC

With all the people turboing iron dukes, and doing built V6 swaps, it never ceases to amaze me how much respect (Or lack-thereof) the 305 gets.

Yes, it is 100% CORRECT that the 305 will never be as strong as a 350+. Even though there is a stock % difference in power output due to bore size, when you get into modding it hits a point where the 305 just can't keep up due to valve shrouding because of cylinder bore size. 1.94/1.50 seems to be the "This porridge is just right" 305 valve size.

HOWEVER, With that being said, Take a stock bottom end flattop piston 305, toss said heads on it, good cam, good valvetrain and carb/EFI of your choice And I have seen 305s make 350 - 400hp, which is about the same output as your run of the mill budget 350. Remember, the 305 heads Don't HAVE to be expensive! You can grab a pair of 601 iron heads that have been ported and had the valvejob done for around $600. plus you get the higher compression of the 53cc combustion chambers. Don't even get me started on adding bigger combustion chambers and forced induction...

Also taking into consideration the people who are doing LS1/LT1 swaps for about the same power output, and let me firmly re-iterate myself when I say it never ceases to amaze me how much respect (Or lack-thereof) the 305 gets. Again, I have seen far less/similar desirable engine builds/swaps get thumbs up left and right.

The 305 might not be the strongest or most ideal kid on the block (lol pun), but they are great motors and can make respectable power levels without cracking open the bottom end.

And last but not least, the BEST part about owning a 305 is also It's worst: It's reputation. Whether or not you cross the finish line first, you get to lay down your power levels and times and say, "That's just a 305".

ZZ3 Z28

Sorry, I will believe that Godzilla will eat Tokyo before I believe that an LG4 is a good engine. Peace out.

freaky

i believe fire demon sic made a few good points . the one that stands out to me the most is the fact that most 350/383 builds in here are in the 4-500 hp range . an i believe those are possiable numbers for a 305 also . there arguments might make more since if they where talking about building 1500 hp machines .

58mark

iTrader: (3)

that's an idiotic statement

Depends on your definition of good.

Do you mean good as in reliable and well built?

Do you mean good as in easy to maintain and work on?

Do you mean good as in a wide availability of parts at prices that are easy to afford?

of course not, you mean easy to hop up so you can drive like an idiot

rusty vango

godzilla DID eat tokyo!! i saw it in a movie once

musicfreako

iTrader: (1)

If people are after more around town fun, why not just play with gearing? Its cheaper and still gives you a good "seat of your pants improvement". Some of our cars came with 2:73s ya know... I swaped from a v6 to a v8. That was great, but then I went from 2:73s to possi 3:42s. That made a HUGE difference also

musicfreako

iTrader: (1)

Maybe someday I'll be like the little rascals and strap rockets to the side of my car and beat everybody.......once

kmcn47

the most logical support for the 305 coming from the guy with the beautiful 2.8 i like it

ZZ3 Z28

I couldn't drive like an idiot with the LG4 because it was a leaky pathetic piece of crap. I wasn't going to spend one thin dime trying to get any more horse power out of it because it was incapable of producing the amount of power I wanted, so I could drive like an idiot. The ZZ3 I put in produces over twice the amount of horses and gobs of torque than an LG4 could ever dream about producing. And now so I can drive like an even bigger idiot I'm thinking about installing a hot cam kit that should put my engine well into the 400+ hp range.

kmcn47

maybe you just dogged on your lg4, because my 84 has the original l69 and its in perfect running order and starts on the first try every time, it never smokes, and it doesnt leak anything?

ZZ3 Z28

Congratulations.

305sbc

iTrader: (3)

The 305 came in the 1980 Corvette,
officially making it a "vette" engine.

Nokiaspiffy

I'm not gonna lie, i almost cried when I dumped my 305 for a 355. Something about being just another 350 made me die a little inside. But soon enough I'll be in with the LS crowd!

kmcn47

exactly, i dont even wanna do a 350 swap cuz everyone and there brothers done it, congrats on the LS and remember it'll never be another 305

FireDemonSiC

You keep using your pathetic LG4 as the baseline for your opinion of the 305. This cannot be a good reference because for the people on this thread who don't know, the LG4 was the most pathetic POS V8 GM ever put into these cars.

Dished pistons, crappy cam, crappy heads and not to mention a poor carb setup. If I had an LG4, I wouldn't be winning any races either.

Andrew James

iTrader: (3)

Cause it is in my car. It's stock as far as I know, those most don't believe it when they run me or hear it (They throw the word cammed around alot when hearing my car.)

Will I build a 305? No.
Will I swap it for a 350 or something else? Yes.
Right now? No.
Does it make sense to leave a perfectly good engine in a vehicle it came with as long as it works? Yes.
Mileage on my 305? Do not know but the odo reads over 200k.

FireDemonSiC

Here's some more food for thought.

Smallblocks are not in production any longer. With every bubba and their uncle grabbing up 350 blocks like they're going out of style, what happens when they become a rarity or there are simply none left?

Motor throws a rod through the bottom of the block at the dragstrip? Hey that's NO PROBLEM we'll go scoop up another 350 from a junk car or with a spun bearing for $100 and have everything swapped over in a day or so. With this mentality, the 350 blocks won't last forever.

Now what happens? Well, you have some options. You can grab a 400 which aren't as easy to come by or plentiful as a 350 and now you can deal with the weaker block due to the siamesed cylinder walls. You can purchase an aftermarket reproduction 350 block for an arm and half your leg and forget about the benefit of the "cheap" cost to build a 350 or you can go big block which won't be so cheap either. Funny thing though, that around this time the 305 will most likely become the next "cheap build" because they are now the most plentiful due to the neglect.

ZZ3 Z28

I'm sorry that I am not one who believes that we should keep what ever anemic or inferior junk GM shoves down our throats, or forces us to buy. Back in the day it was GM's way or the highway. There were few options for us poor folk. It would seem strange, however, that at some point GM did recognize that the LG4 was an inferior engine. Why else would they offer in the mid-1990's, a ZZ3 H.O. conversion package (10185077) to replace the LG4 in certain 1980's Camaros. They're sales brochure says the following:

"This coordinated package of components significantly improves vehicle performance while retaining all required emission controls."

Not somewhat improve, or kind of improve, but significantly improves vehicle performance. And that it does my friends. The difference between the LG4 and the ZZ3 is outstanding. It does it very well even with keeping the Camaro nearly completely stock looking in apperance. To the ignorant or uneducated, a person would be hardpressed to notice that my Camaro is not factory stock; it looks it but it isn't. Only when I point out to them what they are actually looking at under the hood is not a GM produced LG4 but something entirely different by the very same company. I find it hard to believe that GM can install something so aweful as an LG4 and then make a complete line of superior aftermarket crate engines to satisfy the thirst for more power. Well, I guess I can, they had to conform to the regulations required by law. So much for that 26 years later. Speed and horsepower are all the rage aren't they? Car companies are tripping over themselves to one up the competition in zero to 60 times. Look at what GM is doing today with the cartoon Camaro. Who are they competing against? It's just not the Ford Mustang any more.


No, I am not an advocate of the 305. I don't like creamed spinach either. Does that make me bad guy? I am not one who thinks I should have kept my car intact for historical reasons, or collectability, or for numbers matching selling criteria. I felt the need for speed and I went out and bought it. Too bad GM didn't install it in the first place. I shouldn't have had to go to the local speed shop and essentially buy the car I should have been able to purchase from my local Chevrolet dealer in the first place. But that is another argument for another day.

FireDemonSiC

Did you even read what I posted? There you go with your LG4 woes again.

To re-iterate what I said earlier: Yes, the LG4 was a POS. This does not mean ALL 305s are a POS. I'm sincerely sorry that you're so biased dude. It's one thing if you just wanted to do the swap for the power but you my friend are one of the crowd who has a hatred for the 305 in any way shape or form, and you are basing it off your experiences with the weakest 305 motor.

No, I am NOT saying that the 305 is the best thing since the man on the moon and that EVERYONE should have one under their hood. But for those of us who do, I am tired of everyone trying to tell me hoe much of a boat anchor it is. You do it your way and I'll do it mine.

BTW if it makes any difference, once my 305 project is finished your holy grail ZZ3 won't be able to keep up.

NathanLewis

This thread reminds me of those ford vs chevy threads.


In this case, its a chevy thread telling people to go for the 350 because the 305 is a weak and useless engine.


If thats the case, then maybe the 350 is weak, and everyone should go with 454 bigblocks because "its bigger" and its cubic inches are more for your "money".


honestly, everyone just needs to stop this. Its not your money or time, so leave it to whatever that person wants to do.

kmcn47

guarantee he bought a crate zz3 and hasn't done **** to it

FireDemonSiC

Which is fine. but he's trying to preach to everyone that is the no questions asked way to go.

What are my plans? Keep my .030 over 305 with the 14cc dished pistons they used in the rebuild for god knows what reason, grab a set of trickflow super 23 heads and install a head gasket with a compressed thickness of around .045". Running a D1SC with an 8:1 compression ratio should allow for a healthy amount of boost without even touching the bottom end.

Sure, doing a motor swap would be MUCH cheaper, but it sounds like a fun project and I've already sunk a good amount of cash into this car. At the end of the day, our cars are nothing but money pits in general. To each his own.

b1k1w1

zz3ho made 345hp for what $3000. What a sucker you could have got a 415 from speed o motive for 1700$. Top end and for same price over 450! Wow you gave up 100hp. Your zz3 with 345hp won't touch a gen 4 camaro let a lone a vett. Wake up, show respect. Your zz3 my beat a 305 but that's it. And the 305ho came with 220hp and they made that zz3 and zz4 to make money off of people who just don't know. The funny thing is you have probably been beat by a 305 don't even know, I see it all the time! Wait I forgot were we bashing 305 or 350 or just zz3. I forgot I'll try again next time jk

Andrew James

iTrader: (3)

Nothing wrong with a ZZ3. Takes guesswork out for guaranteed reliable power.

b1k1w1

that was the point zz3,305,400 or bbc build what you like its all in fun and people forget hp and tq only get you so far. You still have a car to dial in

Dusk2600

the 305 is a reliable daily driver motor, if you Don't seek any real power

ZZ3 Z28

And what "****" exactly should have I done to it?

ZZ3 Z28

I gave up 100 hp, a ZZ3 won't beat a Vette, a ZZ3 can only beat your 305, ZZ3 owners are stupid, and ZZ3's always lose to 305's? This is fact? Is there some place with documented results of this I can go to verify all this information? I'll wait.



Still waiting...



Still waiting...



Nope, didn't think so.






.

The Project

iTrader: (6)

Why a 305?

Simple....it came with he car.

AND, it runs smooth with no issues.

I just want to enjoy my ride.

kmcn47

exactly, somehow all these "put a bigger engine in it" guys got it that they knew better than gm

and to ZZ3 Z28 im not saying you should have done anything to it, but dont brag up your basic crate engine like a fire breathing monster if you haven't even done simple bolt ons for more performance, cuz i can bet you alot of the 305 guys have

b1k1w1

man you can't read and you don't know about cars. Go to a drag strip you will see your prof. Of course you can't beat a vett with your stock zz3 and I called you dumb not zz3 owners there good for guys who don't know how to build engines or cars. Yes I have watched slightly moded 305s beet 350s and so have others. 400s make more power and they can be built for 3000k what yours cost. So if you don't have a real response for the post don't commit a 350 was a crap engine at one time to. So stop waiting, go to drag strip and open your eyes you might learn something. By the way if you think you can beat a vett I have a 02 ss that can meet you at gateway. But of course you are all talk aren't you!!!

b1k1w1

even better I have a 89 305 rs I'm in the middle of building. Maybe I should bring that when its done you might be brave enough then. It was going to be 383 but you convinced me to do 305 so I can laugh at guys like you. I can put that 383 in another third gen.

DeltaElite121

Gateway isn't even open.. I'd be happy to give you a run for your money.

b1k1w1

is it still not going to be open this year? I always wanted to run there. I'm from NC and ran at rockingham, NC many times. I moved back to stl and street racing seams to be no more. Or at least not in the open at every commuter lot you pass. But hey as sone as the 89 305 is done I will race any one who wants to have some fun.

kmcn47

thats all racings about for me, my engine isn't an extension of my *****, its big enough without them i don't need a zz3 to feel like a man
it came with a 305, its only got 32k on it, and because its a 305 it'll have probably 200k on it when it does go, and that'll be 15-20 yrs from now

InfernalVortex

iTrader: (4)

If you pay attention you'll realize the 305 hate doesnt really come out until people start talking about doing high performance rebuilds to them. I don't think anyone is advocating you toss a perfectly good, running 305 for a 350 just because it makes more power. But if power is a motivation, there is only so much you can do with a 305 before you're tossing your money into a bottomless pit.

kmcn47

the motivation of high performance 305 builds is high performance 305s, why hate on someone building there original engine? just because you or someone else would rather get an engine with already higher power, thats not really hot rod-ing IMO its takeing the easy way out, i know and engine swaps not exactly remove old engine insert new one but wheres the fun in the easy way?

freaky

if i want more than 500 hp then i'd throw away the 305 . but if you your jus looking for the basic 300-400 hp hot rod i'd stay with the 305 .

torque_is_good

it's called cost/benefit analysis

if the goal is high performance then a complete tear down/maching is in order.

So, there you are with a bare block and one goal in mind, street friendly with good power

do you

A: begin assemply with 305 cubic inches (310 if .030 over)

b: begin assembly with 350 cubic inches (355 if .030 over)


to compensate for the less displacement you will give up a bit in drivability. Add forced induction and the build must be more stout and thus more $$$$

you can't use the variable cam and computer controls of today's technology as defense for good power with small displacement because that isn't a choice unless you have big $$$

cost/benefit analysis. At the end of the day, after all of the comparing dick sizes and hateful comments, it comes down to simply; most bang for the buck which is fact-based, not emotional.


now, if you own a 305 and like many here, most of what you say you want to do, vs will actually do,is quite different, then toss on some headers, if TBI then toss on an open element air cleaner, some new gears and be comfortable in your skin.

Personally, if you gave me a ride I'd rather be cruising down the highway at 70- 75mph not sitting on Wal Mart seat covers but good upholstery, not looking at a silly dashboard carpet and not smelling the nasty smell of 20-30 year old carpet. I'd also like to walk up to a 3rd gen with good paint vs a nasty looking one but it has a honkin engine

You will gain confidence, money and experience to pull engines and get them built if you stick with this passion/hobby as you mature.

Ronnie Brennan

for some people its about economy. They want a motor that works good and with the right tuning works very good, yet is easy on gas. well relatively speaking. Their car is their daily driver. I'd like to know how many of the people here drive their 350-400HP 350's or larger engines Daily back and forth from work and in town to get groceries. I bet that count could be done without using all fingers. I know my first Camaro had a 305 in it and when I blew it up I went the cheap rout(didnt have much money at the time) and dropped a crate 305 block in the car. $1500 and I was back on the road again.

With my current Camaro I had a 305 in it and this winter I've taken it out and putting a 400HP 350 in the car. Personaly I find this feasable because
A) I rarely drive the car, only to car shows and on sunny evenings.
B) I have the money to do the swap.
C) Needed to clean up and repaint the engine bay anyways.
D) the 305 was starting to look old and dirty and needed replaced or freshened.

So in the long run I was already going to be spending money on the engine and car. So my feeling was if it was going to cost me $2500 to do all the work I might as well throw in another $2000 and double my Horse Power. The build had a LOT more to do with personal preference than it did with knowing what other people were doing. Nor did I care that others were putting 350's 383's in their cars. I did originally want to put in a 450HP 383 in my car but that would have cost me about 8grand. I found a nice 400HP 350 engine for half that. Even though I would love to be able to tell people I have a 383 under my hood 50 HP isnt worth 3-4 grand. Before people start slapping around the idea you can build a 383 for under 5grand thats right... you probably can. But I'm talking about a show car with a 383 boasting either polished aluminum or chrome everything! You wont get that for under 7grand pushing 450-500HP.

Ronnie Brennan

and... towards the end.. I may have strayed from the point I was making hahaha..

InfernalVortex

iTrader: (4)

Two points... first of all, if you're making the same amount of horsepower, you'll have about the same amount of fuel mileage. It depends on a LOT of factors, too many to count, honestly, but building a 305 for gas mileage and then putting go-fast parts on it is defeating the purpose. It gets you right back where you started. Not sure if you were implying this or not, though.

Secondly, a 383 costs at most an extra $500 over a 350. Not everyone does crate engines. The cranks are very close in price for either stroke, if you simplify things with h-beam rods, you pay an extra $200 or so over regular I-beams, and pistons area little more expensive.... $300 + a balance. It's actually pretty cheap to build a stroker, which is why it's so common.

five7kid

iTrader: (14)

Why a 305?

Started in 1999 with a V6 car with a cracked block. The first advice I received from a Camaro "specialist" junk yard when looking for a V8 to put in it was to sell the car and buy a V8 car. I ignored that advice, and haven't talked to that outfit since. Next was finding a replacement V6. The guy who had one, in a wrecked car, also had a wrecked '86 LG4 car. Same price. I took the V8 car. It had nearly everything I needed to make the good body a V8 car (exhaust was smashed in the rear-ending the 305 car took). At the time, funds available for the project were limited to basically the donor car and odds & ends to get it running.

2 years later I upped the ante a bit with ported heads, cam, higher stall converter, and exhaust upgrades. Made it a completely different car. (BTW, ZZ3 Z28 - you didn't mention cam in your 305 "upgrades", chips are pretty much worthless in CC carb cars, exhaust makes the biggest difference with a cam upgrade; so, I consider your "evidence" inadmissible.)

4 years later I picked up a ZZ3 shortblock and put that under the other upgrades I had already done to the 305. It was as much of a step up as the 305 upgrades were over the stock LG4.

5 years later I pulled the 350 and swapped in an LS1. That was as much of a jump over the 350 as the 350 was over the 305.

HOWEVER...

There is no way I could have made the jump straight from V6 to LS1 back in 1999.

So, that's why I did a 305.