ghostride4

I am new to engine rebuilds have been reading about it for about a month now on this site and a few others so i got the just of it. I would love to make it a 383 but in doing so would it be worth it to bore it out .030 over or would .060 be reasonable?!?!? I would love for this engine to put out about 350 hp/torque. Main questions include any suggestions as to what performance parts i should use includeing pistons/heads/intake/rebuild or stroker kits/etc... (prices on the specific parts would be nice also.) Is it possible to keep this project around 2500 considering i plan on doing all work possible myself excludeing cleaning/machine shop work? What is better 2 bolt main? 4 bolt main? Have heard about 2 bolt mains being converted to 4 bolt mains at machine shops? I am ok with going over 2500 but would love to have a little cash left over. Would i be able to keep my transmission stock (its a 700r4 i believe) same with torque converter, drive shafts rear end? I am 19 and got 11 months of time to use up before i restart schooling so all help is not required but appreciated thanks.

five7kid

iTrader: (14)

Welcome aboard thirdgen.org.

A 383 is made by taking a 4.000" bore block, boring it to 4.030", and adding a crank with 3.75" stroke (vs. the stock 3.48" stroke of the 350). You either need to use special pistons with the 3.75" stroke, or shorter connecting rods with 350 pistons. The most common is to use special 383 pistons and the stock 350 rods.

You don't overbore an engine to increase its displacement. You overbore it to clean up the cylinder walls to give the pistons and rings a nice straight surface to run on. So, if you decide to rebuild it as a 350 but the cylinders are worn enough to require an overbore, keep it down to .030" so you can rebuild it again in the future if necessary. The typical factory 350 block can only take a .060" overbore before the cylinder walls get too thin. .030" is the "standard" overbore because in days gone by, small block Chevys typically required that much overbore to get the cylinder walls to clean up. The lesser overbore pistons and rings aren't as common, but often a .020" overbore would suffice - but, since the parts are harder to come by, they just go on out to the more common .030".

2-bolt blocks are fine for a $2500 rebuild. You aren't going to be building it up enough to justify the extra expense of converting it to 4-bolt main. Truth is 2-bolt blocks are slightly stronger than 4-bolt blocks, but if the one you have checks out with the machine shop, use it whether it is 2- or 4-bolt main.

If you do a stock rebuild, or slight upgrade on cam, you can keep your stock transmission, rear end, driveshaft, etc. The transmission and rear end, in particular, will live longer with a rebuild and certain aftermarket upgrade parts, but it isn't necessary just because you rebuilt your 350.

By the way, do you already have a 350 and want to rebuild it, or do you have something else and want to upgrade to a 350? Unless you have a V6, what I said above still applies.

327sleeper88

Well, for that power level, a 2 or 4 bolt will hold just fine. if you are starting from scratch, just get a 4 bolt. the conversion from 2 to 4 is a little expensive.

Also, if you are starting from scratch, the cost difference to build a 383 over a 355 is negligible. You can get a 383-prepped 4 bolt block from summit racing.

One thing i have learned... if you are going through all the pain of rebuilding an engine, do it right the first time. Also, if you are going to invest money in to certain parts, spend the most on cylinder heads, they will make or break the deal in the end.

only go .060" over if you absolutely need to. the extra 5 cubic inches is not worth it. going .060" over is just trying the blocks luck.

Is this going in a stock v8 thirdgen? what trans do you have? will this be your DD or your "fun" car. is it your only car?

I may be biased, but i will never ever use factory cylinder heads again. aftermarket all the way. hell, i would be shooting for 400HP, it is so easy to do if you pick out the right combination.


as for parts...

There are a ton of good and budget oriented aftermarket heads available. Always get heads, pistons, cranks, and rods new.
brodix, RHS, dart, patriot performance, trick flow, etc. AFR might be a little out of price range, but if you could muster 1500 just for head, it would be worth it.

Untill we know the purpose of the build, its a toss up. I tend to build engines more extreme and racey rather than street friendly. but it all depends on what you are willing to deal with.

josh

things like intakes and carb's can easily be found on craigslist. you could save money and watch for some deals.

ghostride4

im sitting with a 305 at the moment going to use the car as my daily driver while i rebuild the 350.

ghostride4

at the moment it is my daily driver in 2 weeks i will have the new door installed on my little geo prizm and it will shift to my dd. The camaro will always be my fun car once that happens, however i want it to remain a street car. it becomes a classic next year which will help XD no emissions ftw. Do you have any suggestions as to the crate engines you are talking about i was just going to use a old 4 bolt off craigslist and take it to the machine shop.

327sleeper88

if thats the case, you can do a street/strip build. and yes, since there wont be emissions, that opens up a whole lot of opportunity.

when you do the swap, make sure you upgrade the exhaust. it is by far the most restrictive of all things. You can get some longtube headers from summit for about $200, which will also make or break the deal. Don't get those really cheap summit shorty headers. they are too small of a tube for real HP.

anyways....

find a core, worry more about the condition of the block itself (cylinder walls, cracks, previous machine work, etc) like five7kid said, both are plenty strong. my brother is using a 2 bolt for his 383 build, shooting for 500 honest HP.

if you ever what to upgrade even more in the future, spend a little extra $$$ on the short block. you can get aftermarket rods that are significantly stronger than factory ones with an arp bolt upgrade. you could get a cast steel 3.75" stroke crank for $150, hyper pistons for $150-200, or spend a little extra ($300-400) on some low-expansion forged pistons. in my experience, stock or even stock replacement pistons are the weak link over anything else.

But like you said, 2500 or less. i am getting ahead of myself... seams like all we ever want to do is go faster!!

it might even be more beneficial to find a factory 350 forged crank, and then step it up with heads/cam choices. a solid flat tappet would be better in that case. since you have no emissions soon enough, running a big cam is no problem. The cam will determine how much power you make, and at what rpm it makes that power. if you really want to go fast, don't build an engine that makes a lot of low-end torque.

ghostride4

How much would aftermarket rods (good ones of course) cost in your experience. and would u suggest just getting the stroker crank or a stroker kit of some sort? another question probably a dumb one lol. if i got a stroker kit would it take the place of a rebuild kit? have always wondered =/

327sleeper88

some scat I beam rods run $315 in the summit catalog. the bolts are much larger, and the whole rod is designed better than a factory rod. not to mention, it weights about the same.

a stroker kit includes everything - crank, rods, pistons, rings, bearings. a rebuild kit includes bearings, rings, and overbore pistons; you re-use the crank and rods.

you can get street 383 stroker kits for about $900 (eagle, cast crank), or a competition kit for about $1900 (forged crank, forged pistons, better forged rods). $1900 puts you really close to you $2500 limit. or there is a compromise - piece together the rotating assembly. you can save some money, and have a proper combination.

I personally like getting everything separately. that way you can get your CR optimum (by way of piston style). also, i like getting the best of each part. find the best piston maker, the best crank and rod manufacturer, etc. i put my bbc rotating assembly together for about $2300. a kit that is equal cost a minimum of $3000.

Now is a good time to blueprint the engine, don't let any measurement go unchecked. a good balanced and blueprinted engine will run better, make more hp, be more efficient and last longer.

ghostride4

by blueprint you mean find out which parts from which manufacturers i wish to use or find actual specs? and just wondering but if i looked into a stroker forged kit would that be worth it? one that is kind of like

"http://www.strokerkits.com/index.php?page=shop.product_details&flypage=flypage.tpl&product_id=466&category_id=36&option=com_virtuemart&Itemid=1"

doesnt have to be that exact one but just an example of something i could look into, idk how well i would do with mix and match like you are suggesting /sigh

327sleeper88

seems like they use name brand parts. but beware of online engine parts. lots of times you get really crappy knock off parts. that why i always buy from summit or jegs or directly from the manufacturer.

look at these stroker kits. 6" rod 383. basically a longer rod lightens up the whole assembly. really not a bad price actually, just make sure you have a good machine shop check everything out.

http://www.strokerkits.com/index.php...emart&Itemid=1


blueprinting means getting all tolerances and measurements to an optimum value. i.e. bearing clearances, deck height, piston-wall clearance, valvetrain geometry, quench distance, Calculated compression ratio, matching a cam to the compression ratio.

ghostride4

so in your oppinion that seems like a fairly decent kit to look into. or u still suggest i should weigh heavily on jegs/summit and or do the mix and match like you suggested earlier? and for the mix and match if you were doing it you know where you would get each specific part like you were talking about earlier? if not thats cool, like i said im new, biggest project i have done on this car XD. and thank you for all your help so far, your really helping a lot

327sleeper88

hey, its what i like to do. i like to lend my help a knowledge to others.

yes, look into those kits. maybe call them up and ask specifically what brand each component is.

if you were building an 8000 rpm race motor with nitrous, then maybe some better parts would be necessary.

is the 2500 a budget, or just a preference to keep it under that? because things add up kinda fast once you go anything past stock.

ghostride4

preference, i would like to save some for shift/rebuild kit on my 700r4 and some new suspension if possible. maybe a rear end but i know absolutely nothing about those atm, have to read up =]. But thats for later i still gotta put a ton into figureing out how to build this correctly =]

327sleeper88

how good of shape is your tranny in? how about the rear end? your rear end should be fine with whatever you do, and since you have an automatic it makes things easier on the driveline.

a lot of people might tell you its all about how you drive. if you abuse everything, then even the best and most expensive parts will break. but if you use the power 'relatively' responsibly, then things will last and be fun too.

as for the motor...

just an idea for cost on a street/strip build:
383-prepped block - 600
rods - 315
GOOD forged crank - 650
pistons - 350
rings/bearing - 200
brodix IK 200, assembled - 1100
cam and lifter kit - 200
gaskets - 100
headers - 200
exhaust work - 400
parts from craigslist:
intake - 100
carb - 150-300

not giving any specific parts, but just as a 'rough' idea. with the cost of this build, you are loooking at an easy 400+hp, 400+ tq. hell, you could even add a bit of nitrous for the WOW factor.... lol.

as long as the rest of the car is in good shape, you should need to worry too much about everything else.

my first swap was a build 327, everything else in the car was untouched. way faster than stock, but it ended up kicking me in the but because i bought the motor used.... won't ever do that again.
But in all honesty, i was extremely fun and i learned a ton about thirdgens in the process. i am trying to help you avoid the problems of doing things the first time.

with the money i had into trying to fix the problem i didn't know about, i could have had so much more.

ghostride4

im sorry what exactly is a brodix IK 200, assembled? As for that prepped block u were talking about what exactly do you mean? i can find one online for that, or that is an estimated cost of finding a used block and sending it to the machine shop? and nitrous is a death wish roflmao not even close to ready for that =P.

327sleeper88

yeah, i was just messin around.

BRODIX IK 200

383 BLOCK
for a 383, you need to clearance inside the crankcase. with this one, all the work is done for you. probably the same cost as it would to have a block prepped and machined at the shop.

ghostride4

i have been looking for a block like that lol, was a little freaked out as to haveing to take a chance on a used block =/. as for the cylinders damn sir! lol. Oh while im asking my dumb questions for the year. what all would i be able to keep for this just in case money became an issue, i know i could reused the heads, intake all that (i wont reuse those.) i was just wondering. Oh and with that block would i have to take it to a machine shop for any work at all? along with rods and the crankshaft i was reading that i would have to get them internally/externally balanced

ghostride4

Oh probably another dumb question what exactly is the lifter kit u talked about used for?

327sleeper88

The heads you use will determine how much HP you have at the end. stock heads won't get you anything over 300hp. The rest of the engine part you use will determine the reliability of the engine, as will the capability to handle so much HP.

That block from summit is completely machined, you could take it to a machine shop and have everything check out, but most likely it will not need any additional work.

The cam and lifter kit is something you would pick to ultimately determine the kind of engine you end up with. the cam will determine the engines power band, as long as everything else is matched.

have a little read up on lifter types: COMP CAMS

my guess is you have an 86' year car?

just about all auto makers used flat tappet up untill the 80's. from then on, they used hydraulic rollers. all the chevy LS engines us hydraulic rollers. but, they are a little pricey, about $500 for the cam and lifters.

a flat tappet can be hap for about $200 for comparison.

ghostride4

yea its an 86 berlinetta i bought a year or so back been fixing it up ever since, finally became daily driveable about 4 months or so ago =]. but i have been readying a ton and arent the roller cams supposed to by a ton better performance wise as well as don't break as often? may cost more but if that is true might be worth the wait in my oppinion. then i was reading through that 383 block u linked me and read that it is compatable with H beam rods. does that mean it is also compatable with I beam rods? idk if its true but all the reading i have done a lot has been pointing to I beam rods being the better choice.

ghostride4

Oh and what if i looked into getting that block as well as one of the stroker kits we talked about earlier with the forged crank I or H beam rods and cap screws. and those come with the gaskets as well dont they?

327sleeper88

the aftermarket makes H and I beam rods. Both are good, better than stock at least. h beams tend to be wider and require more clearance that a stock rod would. the clearance the block for the larger rod.

The stroker kit would Not come with a gasket kit. you can buy gasket kits, but some gaskets are special. when it comes down to aftermarket stuff, special gaskets are required, and stock gaskets from checker or napa just won't cut it. intake ports are bigger, head gaskets are designed for the specific cylinder head, exhaust gaskets are a different shape, etc. they aren't super expensive, you just need to make sure you get the right ones.

YES, rollers are the best. Depending on how high you want to spin the motor, a hydraulic roller will limit you to about 6500-6700rpm. they make some hydraulic lifters with check valves to raise the rpm limit to 7000ish, but power will fall of fast and you can damage the motor. A solid roller is the best for performance, but is most likely out of your budget. a solid cam, wether a roller or flat tappet is good for rpm's above 6000 to 8000+. but it still boils down to how you want to build the motor. Mild, moderate, or wild.

This is what i mean by clearance

guide to 383 builds
have a good read on this article.

HP graphs

ghostride4

This comp wont load any superchevy articles for some reason so i will have to go over that tomorrow. as for the cam shaft im really not sure. what do u mean by mild, moderate and wild. im assumeing the 350hp i am asking for in moderate but im not sure.

327sleeper88

mild would be like a 305, maybe with a few simple upgrades. wild would be something like the motor im building. high compression, big cam, power band is 6500rpm+, idle is really choppy.

for a 350 or 383, 350hp would be mild to moderate. even 450hp would still be in the moderate category.

with the cam, you either build the motor and chose it last based on what you want. or you pick a cam, and build the engine to match the cam recommendations. once you really decide the kind of power you want, and how much you really want to spend, then you can choose a cam. the cam is, IMO, one of the harder decisions to make just because there are SO MANY choices available. a cam i very complicated, unless you are good at math, they are very confusing to understand.

im off for the night, it was good talking to you. we will continue this again very soon.

josh

five7kid

iTrader: (14)

This conversation seems to have deviated drastically from a $2500 build, with some left over for other things.

ghostride4

It is still fairly close to 2500 without those brodik ik 200 heads. but 2500 is just a base number i would like to keep it close to, doesnt exactly have to stay within it.

ghostride4

Was just wondering other then a 350 built to a 383, a friend was talking about how his dad had a 400 and saw one on craigslist, was wondering what ur oppinion is on how the two compare.

327sleeper88

a 400 sbc is the same on the outside as any other small block. Just more cubic inches. the bore on a 400 is 4.125 because it has Siamese cylinder walls. so a .030 over 400 would be 4.155X3.75=406 (bore x stroke).

if you can find a good core 400 block, by all means get it. you will end up with the same cost to build, but have more cubic inches.

lets get one other things figured out: 2500 for just the motor, or 2500 for the whole swap?

This swap is going to need (for performance sake) better exhaust, changed and/or upgraded fuel delivery, and other things you come across the just need fixed anyways.

Anything over a stock rebuild will probably be more than 2500 complete all said and done.

but once again, it boils down to what you want the finished product to be.

ghostride4

just the motor i have extra for other things like i said earlier. just in case i wanted to rebuild the tranny as well as drop a shift kit in there. was also going to look into a new rear end and strongly considering a manual tranny. Alright when looking at the block you have any suggestions as to what i look for? i know i need to check for cracks or breaks in the block, it is fully assembled pan to carb. and it would still be able to use all the same parts/accessories as a 350 correct. from what i have read they are same size block.

five7kid

iTrader: (14)

Even more so than 350 blocks, factory 2-bolt 400 blocks are stronger than factory 4-bolt 400 blocks.

327sleeper88

on the outside it will look just like a 305, the casting code will tell you the difference. yes, just like a 350, you can re-use all the parts. you can't stroke a 400 any more, unless you got tons of money. Since we are limited to $2500 :-( Rebuild the 400, get some scat rods (stock 400 rods are to short), and some hyper pistons.
Rods
Pistons and rings

This way you won't have too much into the rotating assembly. like i said, spend as much as you can on good heads.

however, you can plan on about $800-$1000 just for a hydraulic roller set up, not including the heads.

I had a friend the swapped a 350 into his thirdgen. it was a basically stock motor he got on craigslist, it was rebuilt with all stock parts. he thought that it would make his car much faster. we are up here in denver, so we are slower in general. he ran low 17's with his stock 305tbi and a 5 speed. are the swap (about $2500, $2200 for the motor) he ran high 16's, even after getting 3.73's. about 6 months later, he wanted more power. he spent another $2000 on heads and a roller cam. it is much faster now.

I had the same problem when i did my first swap, wish i would have just saved up a little more and got the proper parts. I am trying to help you so you don't waste too much time and money.

where are you located?

ghostride4

o damn u live in colorado? where at? I am about 30 miles outside of denver, so depending upon where u are we are damn close to each other lol

327sleeper88

im in loveland, 45min north of denver

ghostride4

alright how can i look up the casting code, assumeing he found the correct code on the engine block to make sure its a 400 before i decide to go look at it? but im in bennett 30mins east of denver =/. i doubt u could tell me anything about it or whethere it looks good but the 400 im looking at is http://denver.craigslist.org/pts/1992903629.html

five7kid

iTrader: (14)

That's a Pontiac 400, completely different animal than a small block Chevy 400.

ghostride4

so its not worth it?

327sleeper88

no, it is not worth it. its classified as a "big block" 400, there is a sticky in the engine swap forum about Pontiac motor swaps, not easy.

lol i bought my thirdgen in strasburg.

a good 400 sbc will be very hard to find.

ghostride4

aw so you have visited us in the middle of nowhere before awsome! but yea that is the reason i asked about that 400 i didnt wanna get something and find out i cant put it in my car and or have to replace most of the drivetrain. stupid questions are ftw.

ghostride4

ok now my question for you how would u go about the engine getting the cam first and building torwards its specs or building the engine and finding a cam that can be compatable with it?

ghostride4

o and now that i think about it couldn't i modify the heads afterwords? get the best possible internals... cam/crank/rods/pistons/lifters etc and if i ran out of money use the stock heads and replace the heads with fairly good ones later with relative ease? you wouldnt happen to have a msn messenger of some type would you?

MassD

iTrader: (1)

for the 350 hp power goal u have set, a 350 with no bore could easily obtain that. However i think for the amount of money you want a spend 400 hp is a better goal. I wouldn't suggest messing with a used block unless u know it is good. So why dont u buy the 383 block from summit and either build ur own rotating assembly or buy one. For 400 hp a cast rotating assembly would be fine, and it would run u about 850 bucks. The money saved u could put twords a better set of heads.

ghostride4

I was just hoping for 350 hp 400 would be great, to tell the truth i had no idea how much hp i could make doing this rebuild, and i am fairly interested in that block and looking into mix and match like he suggested earlier. Takeing my time cause i don't want to spend 1000$ and do something wrong and not be able to do it at all.

ghostride4

O are you sure that cast iron would be a good choice and that forged pistons/drank and so'on isn't required for the build i am attempting to do?

MassD

iTrader: (1)

well cast iron kit would be fine for those numbers, it isnt the horsepower that kills the cast cranks. They are actually extremely strong, it is when u rev it to 7grand for 2 mins is when u break ur crank. I dont think u plan on revving past 6grand with this motor as it is for street use. As long as u dont pin it down to 6000rpm all the time you will be absolutely fine. Most cast cranks are good for 500 hp no problem i have heard of guys going to 700 hp on stock bottom ends.If you plan on boost or nitrous i would definitely use forged but i dont think you are. 400 hp is easily achievable. You can ask a member on this forum named Atilla The Fun he will explain far better then i would. And if you arent concerned with weight savings cast iron heads are fine aswell. In fact most cast iron heads out perform alumnium heads. I would look into vortec heads, people claim good power and flow and they are relatively cheap, RHS protorkers are about 700 for the pair unassembled. With some basic machining they can handle of .600 lift and you will have plenty of horsepower and loads of torque which is what you want for a street motor.

MassD

iTrader: (1)

Scat and Eagle rate their cast steel cranks at 500 hp maximum.
This would be a great kit for you http://www.jegs.com/i/Eagle/356/B13455E/10002/-1 and it is internally balanced as well

ghostride4

awsome, while you are here you wouldn't be able to give an estimate as to the price difference between full forged/full cast would you?

MassD

iTrader: (1)

sure full forged is about 1800-2000 dollars and cast steel is around 700 to 900 dollars

ghostride4

well that saves a nice chunk of change. and just to make sure u are suggesting all out cast? including rods/crank/ etc..?

MassD

iTrader: (1)

Nope the eagle and scat rotating assemblies come with forged pistons and h beams because those tend to be the weakest links

ghostride4

could u give me a link to 1 or 2 of the assemblies you would suggest from scat/eagle. that if you were in my position you would use for this build please